Unrustle_Thine_Jimmies Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 It's Irish law. Airsoft guns must fire less than 1 Joule to be classified as airsoft guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 17, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2014 I think 350-400 mark is fine, any higher and injuries would increase... What injuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CON Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Getting shot in the face at close range, I got shot in the lip by a sniper yesterday from a fairly long range, if it was closer it woulda fucked my tooth up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrustle_Thine_Jimmies Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Mesh masks exist for that reason yo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSwoop Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Wear some protection. Practice Safe Airsoft. Or Take the Pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickona Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Someone did a study and just increasing FPS does very little to the range of the gun. Also Teo in the US they have lots of MEDs and would much prefer no MEDs as it keeps it more real and less like paintball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSwoop Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 MEDs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters M_P Posted March 18, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 18, 2014 minimum engagement distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 19, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 19, 2014 Someone did a study and just increasing FPS does very little to the range of the gun.People keep telling me this, but my experience continues to stubbornly agree with Isaac Newton. I just can't account for it. Take a 6.02x247mm barrel out of my AKS-74U and replace it with a 6.05x230mm and the range drops by a few meters. Must be the hop or some complex gobbledegook way over my head. Strange though because when I took the worn M150 spring out of my SVD and replaced it with an M135 the same thing happened, but this time the effect was much more noticeable - 16-17m and a flatter trajectory gone in one fell swoop. Bummer really, but it had been way hot (535FPS) so I had to do it (495FPS). Come to think of it, when I 1st bought my G36KV I was a bit disappointed with the range, but I had sort of been expecting it because it had been set up to fire @330FPS. I knew I was going to upgrade the arse out of her, but wouldn't be able to do it all at once. To see what effect my erroneous belief that higher FPS would result in more range produced, I swapped the barrel from 6.08x390(iirc)mm to an AK barrel 6.04x455mm - blow me if it didn't shoot further. One of these days i'm going to put an M170 in Svetlana and get someone with an HD camera, Ed probably, to video the whole process. Then I'm going to keep a sticky on my desktop with a linky to the YouTube so I can save myself some effort. I'd do it right now actually, but sadly I'm a cock. Earlier today i cocked my USP while fucking about with the slide and let it fire... right into my lappy screen, so that's forty notes downstream and fuck all to show for it. But in a couple of weeks... Split lip, sir? Tooth out?* Injury? Lol! Played rugby? Boxing? Football even? *Actually I'm so phobic of dentistry that i have medicated myself through months of on & off agony rather than go to the bastard (and really, WHO becomes a dentist?), so yeah I would be in a right state if i got a tooth shot out. The thing is, teeth get shot out at low velocity as well as high. I suspect it's because they have a crystaline structure, so when a polished hard BB comes along, it's the same as taking a tiny piece of porcelain to tempered glass (check YT if you don't know). But as above, wear the right gear for your sport and you will drastically reduce your chance of injury. Just recently we've been treated to the giblet-jellifying occurance of an airsofter being hit in the eye while skirmishing and wearing eye protection and a 1/2 face mask. Terrible. Just frighteningly terrible. But what is the lesson to be learned? Lower gun power? How about, if you wear a 1/2 face you should wear it tight and shooting glasses may well be rated to stop buckshot, but that doesn't mean they're proper eye protection for airsoft, because when you're shooting shotguns, you are behind the lead and, if not, whether you lose an eye is likely to be low down on the list of things you'll soon be without which you'd rather keep, so really they need only be proof against cartridges pinging out when you crack your gun. I honestly think we do need to split into 2 disciplines: airsoft for the soft approach and call it strikeball (like the Russians) for people who take being struck by a ball seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Samurai Posted March 19, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 19, 2014 FPS doesn't mean range. With higher FPS you can use heavier bb and a matching hopup bucking that would result more range. But even a 300fps gun can aim and shoot at 55m. It's in Hungarian and it's a long, boring and annoying video but this guy uses laser rangefinder and chrono for the test so it seems legit. It is very rare when only one part of the gun changes with an upgrade. People say that the barrel has been changed and don't mention that also the hopup bucking, the nub and the BBs were also changed and maybe the cylinder, the o-ring, the shimming and everything has been cleaned nicely. Dropping from 535fps to 495 should not have decreased the range that much there must have been other factors that made it that much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted March 19, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 19, 2014 Well obviously you'd change the hop settings and the ammo as well... That ought to go without saying. If you've got a gun shooting 300fps with .20 and then you up it to 500fps and still use .20s, you'll end up with no range at all; the air resistance against the BB and its terribly un-aerodynamic shape + gravity will just send it curling into the floor almost immediately. Stick .46s in it and use a decent hop unit and it'll be good for 80m. When I say more fps = more range, I mean a more powerful gun, correctly utilised, will send a shot further than a less powerful gun and the reason I say that is because it is 100% the case. Snipers have higher fps limits and heavy BBs for a reason = They go further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickona Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I was quoting a guy over on Arnies and he did it as a control. So just FPS had surprisingly little effect. However, I and the persons work I was referencing was talking about going from 328 to 350 or 350 to 370, as small increases in FPS did very little to the performance of the gun. Alhough an FPS rise from 350 to 500 will have a noticeable effect. His message was mainly to focus on parts like the hop first as that will have more of an effect on the range than just upping the FPS. I also feel I should note that FPS limits in the UK (and other places) are all based on using a .20 gram BB. I hear a lot of people saying "my sniper is shooting just under 500fps on .30" and that would make it not allowed as that would be shooting 612fps If we take Eds example above, a sniper shooting 500fps on .20s can only fire at 330fps on .46s or 408fps on .30s This isn't directly related to the FPS debate but its something I thought I should put down just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 20, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 20, 2014 I promise you, @the time i'd just come home from NAE13 so I couldn't have afforded to change anything else if I'd been inclined to. I already had a decent hop rubber in it (I forget which cos i bought 3 around that time for various projects, but it was bought specifically for high FPS & heavy BB's) a Madbull Fishbone Spacer, a Madbull Ultimate 590x6.01mm barrel, airsoftpro.cz advanced hop unit, Lees Precision Engineering O-ring, and gucci CT-2 Teflon grease, plus an airsoftpro.cz steel trigger sear but that couldn't have made any difference. I literally had all the parts sat doing fuck all for about 10 days because I wasn't at home much, so when i assembled the gun it was the first time i had ever used it. I expected the stock spring to be hot and my plan was to buy another while i was at GZ... but the marshal who chronoed it told me it was only a smidge hot, like 5FPS or so and that it was OK to use (based on his mental calculation from m/s on his chrono). So yeah, i went merrily on my way, having never sniped before, shooting people at 80-odd meters, in adverse conditions through elevation differences, wind (literally wind blowing in 2 different directions at different parts of the trajectory for 2 out of 2 shots which i hit), cover, being under fire myself, etc... Yeah, well on the Sunday I got talking with another marshal who was manning the range. We had a good old chin wag about sniping etc while i set my sights up, but another chrono showed that the gun was well hot. The Element M135 spring was £10 posted from Bullseye (whom i ), but when i fitted it, sniping became a whole lot more difficult, primarily because of the more parabolic trajectory, but that drastically affects the range at which it's worth shooting, because past 97m-ish there's very little point as the BB is just coasting down and a good fart would blow it off target. At GZ, for anyone who knows the site, I shot someone in the upper chest, about 8-10cm from where I was mentally aiming (as the reticule was aimed above his head and to his left), from Heartbreak Ridge, while he was standing on the hill on the other side of the valley to the right, as you look out from the position. Above me, with trees partially obscuring him, and... he wasn't still, i had to track ahead of him also. He didn't take the hit, but the bloke squatting next to me and I heard it hit his vest (and I saw it in the scope). There is no way I could have made that shot with 2.3J in my BB, but 2.66J seemed to be the charm. But yeah, FPS isn't the issue, muzzle energy is. I was firing 0.3g KA BB's @approx 435FPS. Bear in mind though, when the new spring was giving me 405-ish with the same BB's, the hop position was probably slightly different. I always set my hop by putiing too much on and then backing off until the end trajectory is as flat as it's going to get, so I expect that less power behind the BB would affect how much friction there was between the rubber and BB - maybe it takes more nub pressure to produce the same backspin (ie the maximum useful) and maybe, since my setup is good but not wallet-torturingly good, increasing hop up pressure increases the imperfections in the system which take the backspin away from the ideal exactly perpendicular to the trajectory... IDK yet, but it hardly matters. Whatever the exact reasons, more muzzle energy translates into more range, just as Newton and everyone else who has since added their tuppence worth to ball-istics has said. I want to be able to play at ranges where thinking, planning, and tactical movement play more of a role; where you have to adopt a 'patrol mindset' from the get go, because at the ranges necessary for 2 or more teams to initially deploy out of weapons range, it is possible to move whole groups of players into enfilade or flanking positions without them being 'spotted by their absence', ie the ranges are short enough that if you can't see or hear all the opposition, you know they must be in or approaching from 'X' position or direction, because there's nowhere else they could be except out of bounds... It would also magnify the differences between airsoft and paintball. That said, it would be a different game. People who wanted to continue the 'run for the centre and take cover, then shoot em til u win' style of play would be at a disadvantage because they would get popped from unexpected quarters by AEG's as well as just snipers; the locus of battle would shift from what makes sense within a simple mental model, to 'denial' so that the winners would be those whose skirmish tactics force the opposition to either occupy positions from which they can be easily shot or to retreat, ie modern battle tactics. Still, perhaps airsoft could continue on sites that are shared by paintballers in its 1J-ish + exceptions format and strikeball could break away onto larger fields/sites only and be advertised and insured differently... Some combination of eye and face protection that must be inspected and ok'd by a trained named person who then signs to say that it fits and is being worn correctly... but that everyone knows that hits to the body are going to hurt, probably will cause small bleeds, and may result in actual skin breakages... although I do wonder what the set up is for amatuer rugby, or cricket, say, because both of those put people at far greater risk of actual and/or grievous bodily harm than anythiing we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacMaster Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Especially cricket, wasn't there a story last year about a kid who died after being hit by a leather cricket ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 20, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yeah Tac: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/28/schoolboy-dies-hit-cricket-ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickona Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I think the main difference between sport like rugby and cricket is that you're not using projectiles based off fire arms. Cricket is never going to get banned if several people die, but airsoft stands a good chance if one hire kid gets blinded and reports it to the Guardian the press have a field day. I can imagine every mothers group in Britain will be campaigning for it to be banned if that happened. My main opposition to increasing FPS would be the need to have MEDs for all guns which would make CQB far worse and result in massive "bang rule" arguments (video of a guy in USA who got 5 or so kills without firing a single shot) I can understand your point about two separate strands but insurance wouldn't cover the "strikeball" version and I am fairly sure fully automatic guns shooting 500fps are classed as fire arms. My other issue is that you would have to start wearing more and more protection. Full face would probably have to be mandatory and I am fairly sure mesh would probably have to go as well as it would be less safe with higher velocities. It would basically start becoming more like paintball and less realistic Also I am sure you're aware but 435fps on .30 is about 30fps over the 500fps limit. The most you can have with a .30 is 408fps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 20, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yeah i know Nick. I was comparing the stock spring which was too hot when combined with the upgrades to the new M135 that i have now. You have identified the problem, which we've alluded to in various discussions about the VCRA, etc., before: people do misconstrue the degree of risk involved because an AEG looks like a gun. But it isn't one, it's a piece of sports equipment, and the sport is actually a lot safer than many others during which people regularly expect to receive minor cuts and bruises. This is an issue which affects the whole sport/hobby as is, nevermind speculation about what might happen were muzzle energy limits higher. It's something which can only be addressed by facts, but generally those who are overly worried by their misconception of the risks are not thinking logically, they are swayed by emotion, fear, but of guns not AEG's. The only way I can see that anything will change is if a group of us pay for a reliable lab to conduct tests on various AEG's, GBB's, & BASR's vs a range of polycarbonate and mesh protection devices. The results then can be offered to insurance companies as evidence for why the premiums should be lower than for insuring cricket, rugby, etc. and let free markets take effect. Only when Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted March 20, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 20, 2014 Oops my phone went auto on me. I was going to say some stuff about logic being trumped by emotion, the need for reliable lab tests, the nature of ignorance, both emotion driven and wilful, and my opinion on the way forward, but frankly i can't be arsed to write it again using my phone keyboard so it can wait until i fix my laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSwoop Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 The only way I can see that anything will change is if a group of us pay for a reliable lab to conduct tests on various AEG's, GBB's, & BASR's vs a range of polycarbonate and mesh protection devices Something for a Players Union to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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