UKARA Alternative

[Kaza66]

"Project Luther" (A UKARA Defence Alternative): Is a democratic, efficient and easy way of ensuring that Airsofters can prove their defence when buying RIFs while being rewarded for their responsibility.

 

At this point Project Luther is run by Airsofters as a democracy, where your input and vote counts and hold real weight.

 

We would like everybody's opinion, experience and slice of advice as we aim to make the most flexible, efficient and sophisticated database system for all to use! Here at Airsoft Operator we have a great team and an even better support network around us so it's time we went public and start to build interest and boost awareness!

We will be releasing continual updates on the Facebook Page so please like and share - As this project will only get off the ground with your guys help.

 

 

Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/projectluther?fref=ts

 

Project Luther Info: http://airsoftoperator.com/project-luther/

 

Airsoft Operator: https://www.facebook.com/airsoftoperator?fref=ts

 

 

Take a read - See what you think and we hope to see some constructive feedback as to how we can move this project forward.

[M_P]

I normally look at new ideas and products with a pessimistic viewpoint, this is mainly because I then wont be too bothered if it falls through, and partly because I'm a dick.

This though, however I cut it looks promising, if you can get enough retailers and sites on board in a short space of time then this has a chance of becoming successful.

I think with the new british airsoft club thing being announced the hardest part will be convincing people this is the better option to get people on board. That however costs £2 more. The other thing is people most likely wont want to have to pay for multiple subscriptions a year so really P:L should aim to get everyone wanting to be a part of this as I think it's likely to be either or for most people rather than both.

 

If as mentioned there is a free weekender each year, I can see it being a huge selling point, especially if it's in a central UK location- too far north or south then people in either area may not see it as an advantage etc.

 

I'm not sure who's in charge but I believe Ed, Leon and possibly others on here are part of it so it clearly has level head(ish ) people sorting it which is something that P:L would benefit from. If any of them read this then I would suggest collecting a list of ALL retailers and sites' email addresses etc and send out an email informing them of your intentions and inviting them to be a part of it- the sooner you get this set up the better.

[Baz JJ]

Another scheme to usurp UKARA now its been recognised that the Home Office will recognise other defence schemes.

IMHO this is too complicated and unnecessarily technical.

 

It will be difficult to get all three parties to buy in to the BAC scheme. Thinking up more competitive schemes will just dilute the matter.

 

If I have to choose between a retailers system and a consumers system, I think I would prefer to back the retailers scheme.

 

Who is going to run a consumers scheme - can they agree with each other long enough to get it done ?

[Kaza66]

I normally look at new ideas and products with a pessimistic viewpoint, this is mainly because I then wont be too bothered if it falls through, and partly because I'm a dick.

This though, however I cut it looks promising, if you can get enough retailers and sites on board in a short space of time then this has a chance of becoming successful.

I think with the new british airsoft club thing being announced the hardest part will be convincing people this is the better option to get people on board. That however costs £2 more. The other thing is people most likely wont want to have to pay for multiple subscriptions a year so really P:L should aim to get everyone wanting to be a part of this as I think it's likely to be either or for most people rather than both.

 

If as mentioned there is a free weekender each year, I can see it being a huge selling point, especially if it's in a central UK location- too far north or south then people in either area may not see it as an advantage etc.

 

I'm not sure who's in charge but I believe Ed, Leon and possibly others on here are part of it so it clearly has level head(ish ) people sorting it which is something that P:L would benefit from. If any of them read this then I would suggest collecting a list of ALL retailers and sites' email addresses etc and send out an email informing them of your intentions and inviting them to be a part of it- the sooner you get this set up the better.

 

Yeah the biggest problem to overcome now is getting big names on board as we need to cover initial setup costs for the scanners, wrist bands etc.

 

The Operator team who are "in charge" as you put it are Leon, Ed, Mike, Dave, and myself. However where this project is concerned, whilst we are "in charge" we're not. (<< What a sentence) What I mean is all the support, help and advice we will need to get it off the ground will ultimately come from you guys and all the other Airsofters out there.

 

And so we must continue the spread of popularity, make sure we have a flawless plan and get as many people on board as possible.

[Baz JJ]

No disrespect to the forum members driving this scheme, but don't under-estimate the work involved or the commitment.

 

Personally, I have no vested interest other than as a player and I don't mind which scheme I use providing it provides me with a bullet-proof defence. £5 or £7 a year is neither here or there - £2 is a burger.

 

UKARA has its faults and the new BAC proposal needs some of the detail worked on.

 

BAC already have a stand at the Airsoft Show and are apparently signing up retailers like its going out of fashion and actively selling their scheme. If you want to be credible, you have a bit of legwork to do with the trade to compete for attention.

[M_P]

Another scheme to usurp UKARA now its been recognised that the Home Office will recognise other defence schemes.

 

It will be difficult to get all three parties to buy in to the BAC scheme. Thinking up more competitive schemes will just dilute the matter.

 

If I have to choose between a retailers system and a consumers system, I think I would prefer to back the retailers scheme.

I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that the home office only accepts ukara as a defence, I think it's just a coincidental matter that two new ideas have come into fruition at the same time. It's alway been a case of proving you're a regular airsofter, not whether or not you have ukara.

 

Competition is almost always good as it provides benefits for the customers, or us in this case so I don't think it's a huge issue.

The thing about backing retailers' schemes is that they're often designed to make money for themselves- the main argument against UKARA was that it was run by retailers so you might be in the minority there

 

I think comparing to two at this stage isn't the easiest thing to do, but as it stands P:L offeres more benefits for players as far as I can see and of they can get a system of scanning for attendance it will be very quick and simple too. It will need to be sorted quickly however if it hopes to compete with something like BAC.

[Baz JJ]

OK Im already feeling hostility which is not surprising when this scheme is being sold as a consumers scheme for consumers and the originators are leading members on the forum, so I suppose I am prodding the wasps nest with a big stick.

 

Ive seen and served on a lot of user-led committees in my time and while the members of those always started out well meaning, few worked for a number of reasons.

 

You website certainly says all the right things to get the support of the players; free games. low fees, impartiality.

 

Sounds a bit like a political manifesto.

 

Despite the way my post may sound, Ive nothing against you starting a scheme to compete against the other and wish you luck.

 

I have already shared your page through my Facebook group and Flipboard magazine.

[M_P]

OK Im already feeling hostility which is not surprising when this scheme is being sold as a consumers scheme for consumers and the originators are leading members on the forum, so I suppose I am prodding the wasps nest with a big stick.

 

Ive seen and served on a lot of user-led committees in my time and while the members of those always started out well meaning, few worked for a number of reasons.

 

You website certainly says all the right things to get the support of the players; free games. low fees, impartiality.

 

Sounds a bit like a political manifesto.

 

Despite the way my post may sound, Ive nothing against you starting a scheme to compete against the other and wish you luck.

I didn't mean to come across as hostile, so I apologise for that- It's a subject that is bound to cause debate and opinions to be spread about, especially with two new competing ideas.

I have no affiliation with this so for me either this or BAC succeeding I think will be good for all, I just see at this stage that P:L has more benefits for us.

I see either system having potential, I just disagree with a few of the points you made but that's natural, not everyone agrees with everything everyone else suggests

[Kaza66]

OK Im already feeling hostility which is not surprising when this scheme is being sold as a consumers scheme for consumers and the originators are leading members on the forum, so I suppose I am prodding the wasps nest with a big stick.

 

Ive seen and served on a lot of user-led committees in my time and while the members of those always started out well meaning, few worked for a number of reasons.

 

You website certainly says all the right things to get the support of the players; free games. low fees, impartiality.

 

Sounds a bit like a political manifesto.

 

Despite the way my post may sound, Ive nothing against you starting a scheme to compete against the other and wish you luck.

 

I have already shared your page through my Facebook group and Flipboard magazine.

 

There is no "wasp nest" here. We are not going to all form a big circle and beat you for disagreeing.

 

Not everyone is going to like or use Project Luther as an alternative to UKARA, just like many people don't like UKARA now - However our job is to get as many people on board as we can. So it's people like you who stand up and say "Yeah I don't like this bit" or "You could change this" that helps us make PL as user friendly as possible.

 

As someone famous once said: "It's not what you say, it's how you say it"

 

So what would you suggest we do to alter Project Luther? Or are you simply saying you don't like it full stop?

[CES_williamson]

I have emailed this to the manager of the site i attend get his opinion on it all but to me it all sounds quite good and a lot less hassle of ukara.

[Kaza66]

I have emailed this to the manager of the site i attend get his opinion on it all but to me it all sounds quite good and a lot less hassle of ukara.

 

 

It is a lot less hassle than UKARA.

 

- Turn up

- Pay your fee

- Scan your wristband

- Shoot people

- And at the end of the day the data gets uploaded to the database.

 

Simples

[Baz JJ]

Its not about liking or not liking.

 

Ive read both schemes through to comprehend the differences.

 

I had a few questions about the BAC scheme about things that weren't clear and they have answered them.

 

At the end of the day, I believe it will be the retailers and sites that adopt these schemes. Players will adopt them if the trade do.

 

For example, are players really only going to buy from retailers or use sites that support their preferred scheme ?

 

Newbies are the lifeblood of Airsoft. People will stop playing Airsoft naturally after a time period and new blood will replace them. The key is to tap into that. If a newbie approaches a site for their first game, they will probably go with whatever scheme that site proposes. When they are ready for a RIF, there is a good chance that player will go with a compatible retailer often proposed by the site.

 

Player free choice comes into it more with the guys that already have UKARA and have been round the block a few times.

 

I already have a UKARA but presume have to keep my defence up year after year. If I choose to join your scheme to do that, my main concern is that the sites I want to play at, participate and the retailers I use, participate.

 

So, in my opinion, it all starts and stops with getting retailer and site support. If you make it hard for them, because they need scanners and such, they wont commit and will either stay with UKARA or go with the easiest alternative.

 

 

So what would you suggest we do to alter Project Luther? Or are you simply saying you don't like it full stop?

[Ian_Gere]

You know my opinion of the VCRA and I see no point in going into details here. Suffice to say I wont be happy until the Act and all its works have been repealed and forgotten. That said, I'm a realist: while the original authors are still able to actively maintain enough power that the potential to hurt the career of others remains to chill the efforts of anyone whom could be viewed as 'dissing' them, there will be no change to law - it just isn't a big enough issue. If this works it will end UKARA, so for that reason alone, even if it was considerably more of a pain in the arse than UKARA, I will cough up a fiver per year.

 

My concern is that UKARA does create a commercial advantage for established retailers or those startups with enough capital to not only acquire an inventory but also commercial premises, as just one hoop that i know for a fact UKARA make businesses jump through - there are bound to be more. There is money at stake. We already know that a certain Flaming 'Orrible* company are willing to be really petty about absolutely anything which they consider an affront or to be potentially costing them literally a couple of quid and that other forum which traditionally remains nameless on here are hardly known for their tolerance of a spectrum of views shall we say... I can see those with the most to lose from the demise of UKARA mounting what will amount to a dirty tricks campaign against Luther, Airsoft Operator, AF-UK, and those involved personally.

 

Not that I'm suggesting for a minute that this is a reason not to go ahead, rather it's an obstacle that needs to be anticipated and prepared for. After all, two (or more) can play at that game...

 

 

*and I expect points for forbearance.

 

Edit: oh yeah, and if the site's scanner requirement can be made into a free phone app (and it can, it's just finding a nerd to code it) then that will make it instantly attractive to small sites and those organisations which put on events infrequently.

[M_P]

The sites don't even have to buy the scanner though so its not hard. It would take 2 seconds to do when signing in.

Both save the paperwork and hassle which is frankly a pain in the arse and are much quicker and easier for the end user.

 

Both systems (bac & P:L) look to be an improvement on UKARA but P:L just has advantages that BAC does not.

 

The british airsoft club also offers this to retailers

• The ability to advertise and promote your business to a targeted community
• The ability to offer discounts and promotions to registered players

I'm sorry but if that means emails coming through from random retailers, then that's just going to piss me off.

But both being free for retailers means that the smaller ones are likely to take to them quickly which is good for both them and for us as they're often cheaper than places like zero one and wolf armouries for example that insist on over pricing everything

[Baz JJ]

Are you sure thats the case ?

 

If you read their website they describe the process for newbies and those already with UKARA wishing to transfer.

 

The thing with BAC is that it appears that you need ukara to get it anyway...

[M_P]

Are you sure thats the case ?

 

If you read their website they describe the process for newbies and those already with UKARA wishing to transfer.

 

Yeah my mistake, had a more thorough read through now and that was indeed incorrect.

[Kaza66]

 

So, in my opinion, it all starts and stops with getting retailer and site support. If you make it hard for them, because they need scanners and such, they wont commit and will either stay with UKARA or go with the easiest alternative.

 

 

 

 

You're absolutely right there. To get PL off the ground is backing from you guys and retailers/ sites. However we will provide the scanners - Not the retailers or sites. The small fee you guys pay for the yearly membership will pay for the scanners and wrist bands, so really it's not a huge deal of hassle on their part provided they have a computer and internet access.

 

 

My concern is that UKARA does create a commercial advantage for established retailers or those startups with enough capital to not only acquire an inventory but also commercial premises, as just one hoop that i know for a fact UKARA make businesses jump through - there are bound to be more. There is money at stake. We already know that a certain Flaming 'Orrible* company are willing to be really petty about absolutely anything which they consider an affront or to be potentially costing them literally a couple of quid and that other forum which traditionally remains nameless on here are hardly known for their tolerance of a spectrum of views shall we say... I can see those with the most to lose from the demise of UKARA mounting what will amount to a dirty tricks campaign against Luther, Airsoft Operator, AF-UK, and those involved personally.

 

Not that I'm suggesting for a minute that this is a reason not to go ahead, rather it's an obstacle that needs to be anticipated and prepared for. After all, two (or more) can play at that game...

 

 

 

Again, some good points well made. Their will be some fierce competition, but if Project Luther has the backing of a majority of Airsofters and retailers then those who shall not be named can't really do much to prevent it going forward.

 

 

 

 

Edit: oh yeah, and if the site's scanner requirement can be made into a free phone app (and it can, it's just finding a nerd to code it) then that will make it instantly attractive to small sites and those organisations which put on events infrequently.

 

Some form of mobile app that allows you to scan the coded wristband is definitely something we are looking into/ have discussed. However they can be incredibly un-reliable and not entirely necessary in the initial stages of setting the project up.

 

 

Also as an update to Project Luther a few people have expressed their displeasure to wearing a wristband and it seems that some form of card may now be... On the cards... Or favored should I say.

[M_P]

I'd also agree on something other than wrist-bands, membership cards or something, bands would be irritating and I think something most of us wouldn't wear so makes sense to just have a card or similar.

If you can get something like that weekender or free games sorted- that will be a major selling point, no alternative offers anything like that and would hopefully make people jump at the opportunity.

[Baz JJ]

Do the scanners need a computer and internet access to be available at the site check in ?

 

The current UKARA registration for new players has an identity check where you have to produce a passport photo which is physically checked against a photocopy of a passport or driving licence to prevent false registration or identity theft. How do you propose to cover this ?

[Ian_Gere]

Don't underestimate what people gossiping behind your back can do to your rep. Seriously.

[Mike636]

It does entirely depend on retailers taking this up but it doesn't cost anything and all you need is a computer and the internet to check a defence. It also gives smaller retailers a way of checking a defence without having to pay UKARA £300 a year.

[Kaza66]

Do the scanners need a computer and internet access to be available at the site check in ?

 

 

 

The database can be accessed offline to check in (As not all sites will have internet access)

 

However the database is updated when you do have internet access.

 

 

EDIT: Did you read it closely...? "We are aware that most sites don’t have active internet connections so for the purpose of signing in/registering attendance; the data will be saved and uploaded when an active internet connection is available."

[Airsoft-Ed]

The idea is to streamline the current system and add some benefits, to make it worthy of your £5 annual investment.

£5 will get you your own Luther ID and a card and we will use the £5 to provide sites with scanners/develop software to link everything up to a database.

Any money spare after those costs have been covered will pay the people working on the database for their labour and then everything left over will be put it a big pot, ready to be injected back into the airsoft community. Ideas we've had include the free game day/weekender event, but we've also entertained the idea of monthly raffles. Your £5 is buying you a lottery ticket, everyone who's a part of the scheme is automatically entered and the randomly selected winner could get a gun or some gear, it depends how the finances work out.

Personally though, for the sake of a measly £5 per year being entered into a raffle and/or getting the chance to attend a free weekender would be worth it even if the other aspects of the project weren't there.

I'd pay £5 a year for the chance to win free stuff on a monthly basis, definitely. People are paying the same to join UKAPU and there are no real benefits for doing that at all. You get a little UKAPU card and a patch.

The idea here is that you show up to a site and your ID is scanned, this then acts as a record of your attendance. The benefits of this are that as soon as you qualify to purchase RIFs, you can, because the system updates immediately, on the very same day. There's no need to post a form off and wait for a retailer to process it and add you to the database.

All retailers who get on board with the system will gain access to the database for free; UKARA currently costs £300 per year, so our proposal being free instantly draws in all the smaller sites and retailers who are just starting up. It will also hopefully catch the eye of the larger retailers who aren't on the UKARA committee, since it's free and there's essentially no admin involved, all it means for them is that they have another way to check for a defence, the only effort it will take from them will be downloading the app to view the database, then they can carry on as normal.

As such there is no real requirement for every retailer to switch over to the system over night, it will likely work along side UKARA for a reasonable length of time, but since it costs retailers nothing, they have no reason not to get on board and since it comes with added benefits, the players have every reason to get on board.

Additionally, once it has progressed to the stage where the only retailers not on the project are those who are part of the UKARA committee, they will have lost their advantage. Charging all the other retailers £300 a year for access to a database will be pointless because all the other retailers will have an alternate, free system. UKARA won't be getting £300 from all the retailers anymore, so it will collapse.

It will remove the monopoly the UKARA committee's retail outlets have over the market, we should see a lot more airsoft shops popping up because they'll no longer be faced with paying £300 in order to stand a hope of being successful.

This means more choice for us, the consumer, more competition within the market, better prices, less need to import items at your own risk.

So there are many benefits and no real drawbacks. It costs you £5 a year, ok. You have to remember to take a card with you to games, again it's no major burden.

If you have any questions, comments, worries, or anything else, then make them known and we'll either address them immediately with info I've forgotten to note down here, or we'll work on it with your input.

[Ian_Gere]

It does sound good.

 

Instead of a card, I'd prefer a velcro patch with the scheme logo on in a choice of green or tan subdued colours and when you rip it off, your barcode is underneath - like stealthy med patches etc.

[Kaza66]

It does sound good.

 

Instead of a card, I'd prefer a velcro patch with the scheme logo on in a choice of green or tan subdued colours and when you rip it off, your barcode is underneath - like stealthy med patches etc.

 

I'm sure in time we could offer a small range of items - As long as it has a barcode on that's unique to you and is recognised by the scanner, though it could all get a bit confusing if people had five different items each.