two_zero Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Ok.. so, when ordering from taiwanguns, this little notice came at the end of the paper with "Pre-delivery inspection" etc.. CAUTION!! READ CAREFULLY!!Using replica in low temperatures - bellow 0 centigrade can cause serious damage of gearbox mechanism. This kind of malfunction isn't covered by warranty and it's described in warranty statement at point 9. So... no winter airsofting then, eh? I've seen plenty of AEGs being used in the cold. So.. any comments or clues as to why this statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfree Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Haha I was reading this letter this morning. Playing on Sunday with expected temp of around 1-3, surely its not going to break the gears/motor though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordanem Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Doubt it will affect anything, your body temp will keep it rather warm anyways, it's not like your leaving it out in the cold or in a freezer lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike636 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I think it's to do with the gearbox case itself, becoming brittler than usual in the cold, so at the front with all the impact it might cause it to crack. I doubt very much your own body heat will keep the weapon warm for one the bits that you touch are not metal so don't conduct the heat from your hands very well and secondly all your body heat is inside your clothing unless you keep it in your jacket next to skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR01 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 You will find that the motor running will get quite hot and that heat will get transferred to the gearbox casing through conduction, so if used a lot the gearbox should not get that cold, even in under 0 degrees C. It's only if it's left standing for an hour or so that it will cool back down to ambient temperature and might then get down under freezing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 so basically, the gearbox shell is cold, and the heat of the friction may crack it? so maybe try find a way to warm it up? or go easy using mostly semi? Oh, I'm in Sweden currently btw, and it's well below zero atm. your body temp will keep it rather warm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki7491 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I think they are just being over cautious on the science part. When really cold, the cheap crappy metal will become brittle. Shock loading (such as a piston flying forward x times per second could cause damage. The same for the gears themselves. They will be less able to cope with the stresses of torque being passed through them. Will your gun ever get cold enough for this to matter? Probably not. Is the "less able" enough to destroy your gun? Not that I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Will your gun ever get cold enough for this to matter? Probably not. Is the "less able" enough to destroy your gun? Not that I have ever seen. Cool! I'll probably give it a go then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSwoop Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 You have to look out for lubricants thickening as well, they could cause more damage than any brittleness from the cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSwoop Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 so basically, the gearbox shell is cold, and the heat of the friction may crack it? so maybe try find a way to warm it up? or go easy using mostly semi? Not heat and friction but the hammer of the piston and the stain on the gears could fracture things when they are very cold, they get brittle. Lubrication waxing in the cold will probably be the biggest worry though. You need to use a lube that is specced for low temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 3 things ... A. Like the rest is saying. It's no problem ... The gun can handle it! ... B. The problem (If any should pop up) will be the battery... Standard guns come with cheep batterys that are not made to perform under sub zero conditions... When they are cooled down they "just" deliver less amps... If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor .... This can potentionaly cause damage in the long run ... So use a lipo battery 7.4v dureing the winter then your safe ;-) So the gun is not going to fail catastroficly by using it in low temperature (I think your fingers will get frost bites before the gun fails :-) But if you compare equal guns then the ones used during winter will last shorter ... (But not something you notice because other factors will break it before the cold will ) C. Theres no way anyone can see if the gun has been used outside during winter. So if it ( against all ods ) breaks then send it back and get a new one ... Just don't mension the fact that you used the gun outside :-) .... Wait. One more thing: Why dit you eaven read the warning labels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Nutster Posted December 11, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 11, 2013 So use a lipo battery 7.4v dureing the winter then your safe ;-) Not quite true, even my 7.4 lipos need swapping at lunchtime, else they run out partway through the afternoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted December 11, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 11, 2013 3 things ... A. Like the rest is saying. It's no problem ... The gun can handle it! ... B. The problem (If any should pop up) will be the battery... Standard guns come with cheep batterys that are not made to perform under sub zero conditions... When they are cooled down they "just" deliver less amps... If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor .... This can potentionaly cause damage in the long run ... So use a lipo battery 7.4v dureing the winter then your safe ;-) just... no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 even my 7.4 lipos need swapping at lunchtime he he ... Well that just depends on how trigger happy one is :-) and the battery size (amp wise) ... But a lipo should last longer than standard batterys ... If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor just... no. Come on mann ... You have to give more than just saying no... That just leave everyone hanging... Why are you not bying my statement? Anyway let me eksplain a little that may clarify my statement. Batteryes (due to slower cemical reaction time in cold wether) can supply less amps (If you don't beleave med check this out http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/coldbattery.htm ) how big the effect is depends on the battery type og chemicals ... Ergo: Cold wether => Less Amps for the motor ... Motors (DC, with brushes) have high starting amp draw (google it dude). And if you under supply (give less amps that wanted from the motor) the motor it will run closer to the stall point (On most non arisoft motors you can find stall curve charts). So if you run a motor with less amps that it "needs / wants to draw" you will not hit the peek efficiency. This means that the motor will have to use more watts to keep the load spinning ..... So adding time into the equacion the total effect (Wats) generated in the motor will be higher that when running at perfect effeciency .... Ergo: If running at same speed => A motor that are under supplyed will have to use more wats to keep the same speed... The missing part: Under supplyed motors DONT run at the same speed they run slower right? (Yes. They are under supplied so they can't just pull more power...) Ergo: Speed of a undersuppied motor will be lower. Apply the "Spin up require more amps" then you se that. An under suppied motor will run slower and therefore have a constant amp requirement that are higher (Constantly trying to pull the load).... Lower speed => More work needs to be done to increase momentum... Therefore my statemet: "If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor" A more correct (understandable) way of saying it: If the motor don't get the amps it needs it will run less effecient, and this will increase wear on the motor. This wil decrease lifespan of the motor .... Hope it makes it perfectly clear: Cold don't damage. But it can decrease lifespan... Personaly I thing the lifespan decrease is less than 1% decrease so i personaly dont feel that it matters. Ergo my statement: It's no problem ... The gun can handle it! ... But be aware that i dont have any facts supporting my estimate of 1% lifespan decrease!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted December 12, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2013 Anyway let me eksplain a little that may clarify my statement. Batteryes (due to slower cemical reaction time in cold wether) can supply less amps (If you don't beleave med check this out http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/coldbattery.htm ) how big the effect is depends on the battery type og chemicals ... Ergo: Cold wether => Less Amps for the motor ... Motors (DC, with brushes) have high starting amp draw (google it dude). And if you under supply (give less amps that wanted from the motor) the motor it will run closer to the stall point (On most non arisoft motors you can find stall curve charts). So if you run a motor with less amps that it "needs / wants to draw" you will not hit the peek efficiency. This means that the motor will have to use more watts to keep the load spinning ..... So adding time into the equacion the total effect (Wats) generated in the motor will be higher that when running at perfect effeciency .... Ergo: If running at same speed => A motor that are under supplyed will have to use more wats to keep the same speed... The missing part: Under supplyed motors DONT run at the same speed they run slower right? (Yes. They are under supplied so they can't just pull more power...) Ergo: Speed of a undersuppied motor will be lower. Apply the "Spin up require more amps" then you se that. An under suppied motor will run slower and therefore have a constant amp requirement that are higher (Constantly trying to pull the load).... Lower speed => More work needs to be done to increase momentum... Therefore my statemet: "If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor" A more correct (understandable) way of saying it: If the motor don't get the amps it needs it will run less effecient, and this will increase wear on the motor. This wil decrease lifespan of the motor .... Hope it makes it perfectly clear: Cold don't damage. But it can decrease lifespan... Personaly I thing the lifespan decrease is less than 1% decrease so i personaly dont feel that it matters. Ergo my statement: It's no problem ... The gun can handle it! ... But be aware that i dont have any facts supporting my estimate of 1% lifespan decrease!... OK then Einstein - riddle me this: the battery current output drops and you say that means that the motor will need to use "more Watts" to operate. If the battery isn't supplying enough power in the first place, where are the watts supposed to come from? Just FYI - I'm an Industrial Automation engineer. I know you're wrong I just want you to understand why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted December 12, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2013 he he ... Well that just depends on how trigger happy one is :-) and the battery size (amp wise) ... But a lipo should last longer than standard batterys ... Come on mann ... You have to give more than just saying no... That just leave everyone hanging... Why are you not bying my statement? Anyway let me eksplain a little that may clarify my statement. Batteryes (due to slower cemical reaction time in cold wether) can supply less amps (If you don't beleave med check this out http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/coldbattery.htm ) how big the effect is depends on the battery type og chemicals ... Ergo: Cold wether => Less Amps for the motor ... Motors (DC, with brushes) have high starting amp draw (google it dude). And if you under supply (give less amps that wanted from the motor) the motor it will run closer to the stall point (On most non arisoft motors you can find stall curve charts). So if you run a motor with less amps that it "needs / wants to draw" you will not hit the peek efficiency. This means that the motor will have to use more watts to keep the load spinning ..... So adding time into the equacion the total effect (Wats) generated in the motor will be higher that when running at perfect effeciency .... Ergo: If running at same speed => A motor that are under supplyed will have to use more wats to keep the same speed... The missing part: Under supplyed motors DONT run at the same speed they run slower right? (Yes. They are under supplied so they can't just pull more power...) Ergo: Speed of a undersuppied motor will be lower. Apply the "Spin up require more amps" then you se that. An under suppied motor will run slower and therefore have a constant amp requirement that are higher (Constantly trying to pull the load).... Lower speed => More work needs to be done to increase momentum... Therefore my statemet: "If the motor don't get the amps it needs i will add aditional workload to the motor" A more correct (understandable) way of saying it: If the motor don't get the amps it needs it will run less effecient, and this will increase wear on the motor. This wil decrease lifespan of the motor .... Hope it makes it perfectly clear: Cold don't damage. But it can decrease lifespan... Personaly I thing the lifespan decrease is less than 1% decrease so i personaly dont feel that it matters. Ergo my statement: It's no problem ... The gun can handle it! ... But be aware that i dont have any facts supporting my estimate of 1% lifespan decrease!... A battery and a motor are two inanimate objects, the motor cannot 'draw more watts' when it needs to, it'll draw what the battery gives it, running a motor on a nearly dead battery will just stop it being able to turn the gears as fast and you'll lose ROF/trigger response before eventually just stopping. the only things that can really 'wear' on an aeg motor are the brushes and the commutator (real word) and those wear through friction caused by the motor spinning, slower spin, less friction, less wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 where are the watts supposed to come from? Your right :-) It does not come :-) .... Resulting in the motor running slower .... The motor will spin at the speed it can "given the power the battery can supply" .... That was my hole point ;-) Ergo: Speed of a undersuppied motor will be lower. See ... i already answored that :-) And if you drop the supply to much the motor will stall and stop spinning.... ..... the motor cannot 'draw more watts' when it needs to, it'll draw what the battery gives it Correct. That's just what i said .. So if you run a motor with less amps that it needs you will not hit the peek efficiency. This means that the motor will have to use more watts to keep the load spinning But it can't (because of the battery) so it will run slower or stall .... I realy think we all agree on the fact that an under supplied motor will just run slower or stall... It's just a matter of eksplaning the physics.... Formulas are nice but not many people understand them ;-) -------------------- the only things that can really 'wear' on an aeg motor are the brushes and the commutator (real word) and those wear through friction caused by the motor spinning, slower spin, less friction, less wear. I disagree .... Electrics are subject to other effects as well: Higher amps applied to brushes on a motor will increace the dammage caused by arching. Higher voltage means more distance that archs can fly resulting in more arching ... But i agree that: "The main wear is from friction not arching" But heres something interesting that may make you agree with mee: However, electric motors left in a stalled condition are prone to overheating and possible damage since the current flowing is maximum under these conditions. The maximum torque an electric motor can produce in the long term when stalled without causing damage is called the maximum continuous stall torque Is a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_torque That kind of proves my point.... If you stall you motor above "max conti stall torque" then you will cause damage.... If you stall it below then you are safe = no damage... So if your gun starts running (because of relative low torque needs when pulling the first part of the spring) and the stall because of it not beeing able to fully pull the last part of the spring pullback (Eg. Bacause of a cold battery not supplying enough)... Then you motor will be switching back and forward between stalling conditions and running conditions ... And inbetween the 2 are the point whare you are stalling and causing damage .... So again my point is. It's riscy to undersupply a motor. I would say "It's not recommended", but i don't mean that i will break ... But theres a posibility (depending on allot of factors) that you may cause minor wear and limiting lifespann when underslupying power to a DC motor pulling a non constant load.... Now please: Instead of just saying that I'm wrong.. Please do try to eksplane it the right way instead... Just saying "Your wrong it can't do that" is not verry help full to anyone ;-) But if you thing you can eksplane it better than me then please give it a go! Maby your right and i'm wrong, but prove your statement so that eaven I can see the light ... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Try this by the way ... 1: Hook up a motor to a good lipo battery and add a 15 amp fuse... it runs fine with no load :-) 2: Lock the motor in place so it can't turn (That the ultimate way of stalling an engine)... The fuse will blow :-) That's because that a motor is a inanimate object that draws amp's depending on the load :-) ... That's why most people (me included) say "they draw the amp they need" it's not because it magicaly produses more power.... 3: Doo the same without a fuse .... Then you see the full effect of stalling a DC motor above maximum continuous stall torque.... Did you kill your motor ? ..... Sorry about that ... Again it proves: A motor's amp draw is dependent on load condition... A battery provides what i can: Yes. But it can't supply more than the electrics (including motor) alows ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted December 13, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 13, 2013 Everything you've said there is true, but it's off topic, we're talking about running a dead/dying battery which isn't giving enough juice to run the motor which as you've stated will cause the gearbox to not cycle fully. What you're forgetting though is that the trigger is being operated by a person, and when the trigger is pulled and nothing happens your average person won't hold that trigger down for 10 minutes to get the motor good and hot. They'll assume their battery is dead and change it. Not only that, the battery is nearly dead and so won't be putting out as much power anyway and will produce diminishing returns, less voltage/amperage means the motor won't be able to heat up in the first place! Of course yes, if you locked up your gearbox and then hard stalled the motor with a full battery you're going to get problems but that's not what we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 What you're forgetting though is that the trigger is being operated by a person, and when the trigger is pulled and nothing happens your average person won't hold that trigger down for 10 minutes to get the motor good and hot. They'll assume their battery is dead and change it. Yes ofcause :-) And given that you folow this pattern then i agree no damage will occur! But i have seen countless of fustrated people desperatly pulling the trigger and have seen them holding the trigger while hitting the gun trying to force it to cycle (because they "know" they charged ther battery and 6 month ago in the summer it worked perfect ) .... And i have seen guns (where the fuse was removed) where people have blown ther motor holding the trigger on a battery that was delivering power just not enought to get the gun to fylly cycle ... So my point is that "Normal people that just change ther battery when it dies will have no problem using the gun in cold weather". But: "If you don't folow normal procedure then YES your gun can take damage...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted December 13, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 13, 2013 I see what you're getting at but I think you're coming at it the wrong way around. Motor stall occurs when the mechanical load on the motor exceeds the strength of the flux in the motor windings. If you mechanically stall a motor connected to an unlimited power supply the motor will attempt to draw more and more current until it reaches the maximum stall torque. Usually motors are wound with the correct gauge of wire to reduce the possibility of burnout at this point but with a small or cheap motor it is a possibility. However you won't achieve maximum stall torque in the condition of a low output battery. The motor WILL stall, but at an earlier point in the torque curve and hence at a lower current draw (the maximum the battery can in fact supply) which is less likely to damage the motor. It is physically impossible for the motor to draw more current than is available from its power source, if that level of current does not exceed the maximum current capacity of the motor windings it will not get damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted December 13, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 13, 2013 Yes ofcause :-) And given that you folow this pattern then i agree no damage will occur! But i have seen countless of fustrated people desperatly pulling the trigger and have seen them holding the trigger while hitting the gun trying to force it to cycle (because they "know" they charged ther battery and 6 month ago in the summer it worked perfect ) .... And i have seen guns (where the fuse was removed) where people have blown ther motor holding the trigger on a battery that was delivering power just not enought to get the gun to fylly cycle ... So my point is that "Normal people that just change ther battery when it dies will have no problem using the gun in cold weather". But: "If you don't folow normal procedure then YES your gun can take damage...." I would say it's more likely they blew the battery rather than the motor. A flat battery can't blow up a motor, it's basic physics. Now that's not to say that they haven't physically damaged something by hitting the gun in an effort to change the laws of physics but that's another issue all together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunstar Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I think i have changed 3-4 motors (Yes motors) during my tech carear because of people doing ecactly what i described: "Holding the trigger in for long periods because of the gun not firing..." Ofcause i have changed eaven more fuses and some fired wires as well (and batteries)... But I have also seen motors burn out that way .... So I'm relatively sure that i can happen .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted December 16, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 16, 2013 but NOT with a flat battery, it simply cannot happen with a battery that is on it's last legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted December 16, 2013 Supporters Share Posted December 16, 2013 I think i have changed 3-4 motors (Yes motors) during my tech carear because of people doing ecactly what i described: "Holding the trigger in for long periods because of the gun not firing..." Ofcause i have changed eaven more fuses and some fired wires as well (and batteries)... But I have also seen motors burn out that way .... So I'm relatively sure that i can happen .... If you blow fuses or burn stuff out then there has to be power there to be able to do that. If those motors have burned out it's more likely to have been a mechanical jamming issue that has then caused the battery to go flat through someone repeatedly trying to make the gun work (a bit like constantly turning over a car that won't start). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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