Night Vision, what's good

[geoffreym]

I've been toying with the idea of getting a set of NVG's, mainly because I plan to go to more night games this year due to driving ability, problem is I've not got that much idea on them. I know that with the earlier generation's they had a tendency for blowing out if even a torch was in the vicinity, and that they can be extremely fragile.

 

Do the more modern versions have any strength against natural light, I've been looking at the Yukon's on Flecktarn and wondered whether they are tough enough for the price, or whether it would be a better idea to just buy one of those COD NVG's and expect it to break within a couple of games.

 

and as an additional, anything less than £400 and with the ability to mount on a rhino arm would be great.

 

I'm putting this in General Discussion as I don't think there will be a simple "get this" answer.

[Chippins]

A couple of the guys at my local site have Yukon NV sights, both of them are awesome but don't mount on to rhino arms. Not sure how they would stand up to being shot either.

 

As for the COD ones would be of very little use TBH you'd be better off just getting night adapted. (They are pretty fun for dicking about with though)

[geoffreym]

I would class myself as night adapted, problem is I have played in absolutely zero-light conditions (the mall, UCAP Bunker).

I was guessing that answer about the COD ones though.

[adam bussey]

i'd like to know whats out there to.

[QuadMachine]

I've been thinking the same, although would NV googles work in total indoor darkness? I'm thinking the basement at The Mall. Also any of you guys used an NV scope? I've been eyeing up this one for a while but not had a chance to play with it...

 

http://www.nightvisiongear.co.uk/product-details/night-vision-rifle-scopes-first-generation.htm/orion3x.htm

[geoffreym]

From what I understand, NV's do not work in total (unnatural) darkness, however NV uses infra-red and ultra-violet light to provide an enhanced image, I do know that some makes have inbuilt illuminators (not in the visible spectrum) which would allow them to be used in unnatural light,

hope to see you at the mall as well.

 

I've been eyeing this one up as well

http://www.nightvisiongear.co.uk/product-details/night-vision-goggles-first-generation.htm/vega.htm

[Ian_Gere]

If you lot can be patient for up to a couple of months, I may have a solution for you. I'm in negotiations with an electronics company to produce replacement power supplies for ex Soviet Gen 1+ NV gear.

 

The issue is that, as issued, they have a pretty simple bomb-proof transformer attached either to the unit or part of the rig you wear the unit on. The type I'm hoping to be able to adapt to airsoft are designed to be worn head mounted while driving. This fat transformer acts as a counterweight on the back of a padded canvas helmet. They have a lead which plugs into a socket for 12V or 24V power.

 

There's no issue with power: they even run off a 9V PP3. The problem is with the transformer because when in operation it makes a high pitched whine - not that loud, but loud enough to give you away in a sneaking around scenario. However, the company I'm talking to have agreed to have their tech team look at designing a modern electronic replacement for the transformer which will operate silently and run off any of these common airsoft voltages 7.4V, 8.4V, 9.6V (so batteries can be interchanged with existing AEG ones). The bloke said he will probably have a proposal by the end of next week.

 

The reason this needs a proper bunch of boffins to do is that the stock transformer output is 15-19.5KV, although research suggests that the tubes in the eye pieces will work at 10KV (which is something I will soon discover as I have a 10KV unit made from a bunch of smaller quieter transformers in the post from the USA - although I can't afford to buy the NV goggles for a month). Anyway I'm sure you all realise that, even though the current will be something like 3.9mA, well below the 52mA generally agreed as the minimum necessary to stop a human heart during ordinary skin to conductor contact, double figure thousands of volts attached to our heads would make for some pretty funny mong-ons if it went wrong. Of course, if we didn't get a taser-like shock to the head, dodgy connections and/or apparatus could still create bright blue, loud, arc flashes, which would give our positions away

 

What makes these things so good for airsoft is that they are designed specifically to maximise the view at driving-relevant distances and also a wider angle than standard NVG or weapon mount scopes. What's the point of £6-7-800 NV that can image stuff crisply at 300m when we can't shoot that far? They work by maximising very low light levels, some amount of UV, and IR. So yes, they will work in indoor complete darkness with an IR illumination source. Depending on supply, they sometimes come with 2 or 4 massive headlamp IR filters, but the ones I'm looking at do not have a built in IR emitter.

 

Not to worry! I have found a cheap source of Cree IR LED's and another for a limited number of IR lasers. The thing to bear in mind about these things is that they are made to withstand war. If you manage to bust one by 'blunt force trauma', you'll have a lot bigger problems than fcuked up NVG, ie a caved in head. I'm planning to create mesh or polycarbonate lens covers also and, depending on how the 1st one melds with my eyepro, possibly some sort of custom mesh mask...

 

How much then? Depending on a number of variables, I'm hoping for a max price of £300, quite possibly cheaper.

 

[Chippins]

I would class myself as night adapted, problem is I have played in absolutely zero-light conditions (the mall, UCAP Bunker).

I was guessing that answer about the COD ones though.

 

By night adapted i just mean standing around in the pitch black for about half an hour before doing anything, not like having experience in the conditions themselves.

 

But yeah some of the Yukon sights do have IR illuminators built in, so they can project their own light and then amplify it.

[geoffreym]

If you lot can be patient for up to a couple of months, I may have a solution for you. I'm in negotiations with an electronics company to produce replacement power supplies for ex Soviet Gen 1+ NV

 

What makes these things so good for airsoft is that they are designed specifically to maximise the view at driving-relevant distances and also a wider angle than standard NVG or weapon mount scopes. What's the point of £6-7-800 NV that can image stuff crisply at 300m when we can't shoot that far? They work by maximising very low light levels, some amount of UV, and IR. So yes, they will work in indoor complete darkness with an IR illumination source. Depending on supply, they sometimes come with 2 or 4 massive headlamp IR filters, but the ones I'm looking at do not have a built in IR emitter.

 

How much then? Depending on a number of variables, I'm hoping for a max price of £300, quite possibly cheaper.

 

Awesome mate, put me down for one, either a way of mounting it on top (or over the top) of a modern helmet, or a rhino arm mount I think would be better though.

Any help if needed, I would be happy to assist.

[harvchan]

Why would you want NV at the UCAP bunker or the Mall you will only get some Noob shine his torch at you and POW ruined NV's, as my son did to a team wearing NV in the basement. if you want to spend upwards of £400 my £20 torch will be more than a match.

 

If you want NV get a big arse torch forget being sneaky lite the fookers up!!!

 

If on the other hand you are playing some of the Milsim games i.e. Stirling then maybe but only maybe. I found that after about half an hour or so playing in the pitch balck at Copehill your eyes become adjusted to the darkness and you can easily make you r way around!!

 

Just my opinion!!

[geoffreym]

Why would you want NV at the UCAP bunker or the Mall you will only get some Noob shine his torch at you and POW ruined NV's, as my son did to a team wearing NV in the basement. if you want to spend upwards of £400 my £20 torch will be more than a match.

 

If you want NV get a big arse torch forget being sneaky lite the fookers up!!!

 

If on the other hand you are playing some of the Milsim games i.e. Stirling then maybe but only maybe. I found that after about half an hour or so playing in the pitch balck at Copehill your eyes become adjusted to the darkness and you can easily make you r way around!!

 

Just my opinion!!

In regards to noobs, I couldn't agree more, the problem is with the more experienced players who hide in the corners, and wait until your back is turned, and I like to stalk the pitch dark corridors, NVG'S would give me a significant advantage.

Plus anybody who has ever played in night games will tell you that torch's are a bullseye on your back. I do prefer using mark 1 eye balls, but I take every advantage I can get.

[Ian_Gere]

Military Gen 1+ NV gear isn't fcuked up by torches. How could it be? They wouldn't be much good to an army if a kid with a £4.99 5W LED torch could bring them to a standstill, eh? Bright light does cause some damage to the tubes, but that is measured in hours of use knocked off; that's also why they come with lens caps, because bright light wears them out faster even when not powered up. The thing to understand about any NV gear though is that it does have a finite use life. It's just that military gear is more robust.

 

Unfortunately my grand plan has hit an obstacle - the electronics firm got back to me today with an estimate of development costs; sadly they are taking the piss. But on the plus side, I have secured a supplier with 15 headsets. The electronics plan isn't dead yet, because I know for a fact that what we want is a pretty common item in such things as scientific equipment. All that this firm really need to do is plug my figures into an existing formula to come up with the necessary component specs. If they can't or won't do that, I'll find someone else who can (I hope lol).

 

There's always the multi transformer option. According to the bloke I bought mine off, they work with just a quiet hum, which ought to be silenced by being enclosed in the steel and gasketed pod for the original transformer. I may be able to find more or get more made to the same specs.

 

For the moment all the help I need is people who can give a definite commitment to buy so long as the gear works fine and the price is right. That way I can negotiate in more concrete terms which, I expect, will inspire more confidence.

 

Another thing is that nobody can see by starlight in a forest and other people's torches wreck your night vision.

[geoffreym]

For the moment all the help I need is people who can give a definite commitment to buy so long as the gear works fine and the price is right. That way I can negotiate in more concrete terms which, I expect, will inspire more confidence.

 

Another thing is that nobody can see by starlight in a forest and other people's torches wreck your night vision.

If the sets will cost less than £250 I can guarantee that I will have 2 sets, under £350 1 guaranteed 1 possible.

And thanks for the reassurance regarding the torches

[two_zero]

question about use of NVs thou.. night game will mean everyone flying 300-3000 lumen torches, which, if I understand things right, means you wont see very well at all in NVs?

[harvchan]

In regards to noobs, I couldn't agree more, the problem is with the more experienced players who hide in the corners, and wait until your back is turned, and I like to stalk the pitch dark corridors, NVG'S would give me a significant advantage.

Plus anybody who has ever played in night games will tell you that torch's are a bullseye on your back. I do prefer using mark 1 eye balls, but I take every advantage I can get.

But if you come in to said room with bright torch and sweep the room to avoid the shot in the back NV is a good as a ashtray on a scooter.

 

Some of the older style NV also give off a IR signature which the newer NV see as bright as any torch!!

 

Well I have played in several night games and torches have been a useful advantage. I could have done with one of the last game stuck blind on a ridge with OPFOR all with NV and my team literally in the dark.

 

They is an argument for NV and torches just depends on whether you want to spend upwards of £400 to £13k on a decent set of NV's or £20 on a torch????

 

Again my opinion only

[MZKaleem]

Some people might also use NVG's for milsim too where NVG's are important to their impression.

[Ian_Gere]

They is an argument for NV and torches just depends on whether you want to spend upwards of £400 to £13k on a decent set of NV's or £20 on a torch????

But this is the 21st century - we can have pressure switch activated multi-function visible light torches, red/green/IR lasers, and IR only torches all on our guns at the same time and NV on our heads that can be flipped up out of the way when not useful.

 

@Geoffrey: I meant to say earlier that if you look at the pic I put up, there's a wingnut at the front which connects the tube unit to the headmount, right? Well that strap which is bolted to the headmount obviously comes off, so I think that it could be bodged onto a Rhino Arm by slotting it in and putting an extra wingnut through both the Rhino and that strap. It might take some metal and/or rubber washers in there to make it stiff enough so that it doesn't just flop down in your face when it's loosened for adjustment.

 

Or you could take the whole rig off the tanker helmet and bolt/screw/tape it to another helmet. The only thing to bear in mind is that the steel pod at the back has to go with the tube unit and the leads cannot be extended without extra, possibly mind boggling, expense. But then again, you need a counterweight. I'm hoping that the replacement power supply and battery fitted in that pod are enough, but if not then a little bit of roofing lead flashing should do the trick.

 

@two_zero If you use NV at a night game then you would simply push them up out of your face when you are facing torches shining in your direction for a while. But they allow you to sneak around the enemy in areas where they are not looking completely hidden by the dark and quietly because you can see where you are putting your feet.

[geoffreym]

But this is the 21st century - we can have pressure switch activated multi-function visible light torches, red/green/IR lasers, and IR only torches all on our guns at the same time and NV on our heads that can be flipped up out of the way when not useful.

 

@Geoffrey: I meant to say earlier that if you look at the pic I put up, there's a wingnut at the front which connects the tube unit to the headmount, right? Well that strap which is bolted to the headmount obviously comes off, so I think that it could be bodged onto a Rhino Arm by slotting it in and putting an extra wingnut through both the Rhino and that strap. It might take some metal and/or rubber washers in there to make it stiff enough so that it doesn't just flop down in your face when it's loosened for adjustment.

 

Or you could take the whole rig off the tanker helmet and bolt/screw/tape it to another helmet. The only thing to bear in mind is that the steel pod at the back has to go with the tube unit and the leads cannot be extended without extra, possibly mind boggling, expense. But then again, you need a counterweight. I'm hoping that the replacement power supply and battery fitted in that pod are enough, but if not then a little bit of roofing lead flashing should do.

Thanks mate, that was the answer I was looking for, haven't been able to see the picture in any real quality yet due to being on my phone recently.

[two_zero]

£20 on a torch

 

...wont get much of a torch for £20, unless I'm much mistaken!

 

 

@two_zero If you

use NV at a night game then you would simply push them up out of your

face when you are facing torches shining in your direction for a while.

But they allow you to sneak around the enemy in areas where they are not

looking completely hidden by the dark and quietly because you can see

where you are putting your feet.

 

My point is, from my experience from casual games, you're going to see bright torch light most all the time. But if you think those few time you do not have torches blasting away at you is worth the expense ad weight of NVs.. then fair enough!

[Ian_Gere]

When u get to a puter, Geoffrey, see what u think:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is a different variant from the one above, but it is a better pic to work from. The wingnut and strap are swapped here for bolted arms, but I think any of the variants would still work. Maybe a bit of filing to make it fit, maybe something to pack between for stiffness - dunno but it looks doable to me.

[jcheeseright]

I have while I've been away looked into this in some detail as I'm really keen to get going with some proper milsim when I get home (184 days done, 6 to go). From what I've seen so far, unless you want to be spending 4 figures and up, gen1+ is pretty much the only way to go. From the rather large choice of commercial gen1+(a bit of a misnomer, it's still gen1, just 'newer', not 'better') devices out there the best 2 contenders for helmet mounting are the Cobra Optics Merlin EX 1x20 monocular, and the Pulsar Challenger GS 1x20 monocular. Yukon do some too but I don't think they'll have the requisite threaded part to accept a j-arm to attach to a rhino mount.

 

For info, if you need to attach a rhino arm to an NVD the fitting is a standard camera tripod adapter, though finding a decent j-arm is a challenge in the extreme, as is finding an appropriately priced rhino arm.

 

If you've got a bit of cash to splash, the AN/PVS14 model gen3 monocular is supposed to be the bees knees and can (for a gen3 device) be picked up relatively cheaply these days. The added bonus to getting one of these is that the rhino mount and j-arm were designed around it, so you know it'll work.

 

As for torches trashing gen1 NVDs, as Ian said it's more a case of them losing hours of effective use than instantly exploding in your face, most will work for several thousand hours anyway so losing a few here or there won't cost you too badly. How often do you realistically play at night? a handful of times a year? Think how long it would take to use a thousand hours at that rate, a pretty long time!

[Ian_Gere]

...wont get much of a torch for £20, unless I'm much mistaken!

I've got a 300 Lumen C8 with Cree LED, pressure switch and push button end caps and multi function 3 brightness levels, strobe & emergency flash, 3 different mounts and a 18650 battery - for less than £20

 

 

My point is, from my experience from casual games, you're going to see bright torch light most all the time. But if you think those few time you do not have torches blasting away at you is worth the expense ad weight of NVs.. then fair enough!

You're only going to see torchlight if you head towards the directions the enemy are pointing their torches. From your experience, that's what you remember... but you didn't have the option to look in a different direction and see well enough to go that way for any useful reason, eh?

[two_zero]

I've got a 300 Lumen C8 with Cree LED, pressure switch and push button end caps and multi function 3 brightness levels, strobe & emergency flash, 3 different mounts and a 18650 battery - for less than £20

 

 

You're only going to see torchlight if you head towards the directions the enemy are pointing their torches. From your experience, that's what you remember... but you didn't have the option to look in a different direction and see well enough to go that way for any useful reason, eh?

 

300 works for you? link? might pop that on and not risk having lenses on more expensive ones shot out.

 

on the sites I tend to skirmish at, no, you would not be able to progress into any direction where there wouldn't be someone with a torch. Then again, on a more open site or less players, maybe.

[Ian_Gere]

My mistake - it's 350 lms on fleabay

 

I've taped 2 layers of thin polycarbonate from a blister pack over the lens, because even though it actually only cost me £12.50 DELIVERED, I see no reason to put it at more risk than necessary.

[harvchan]

...wont get much of a torch for £20, unless I'm much mistaken

 

 

Then you are much mistaken just search ebay!!!

 

Looking at the pictures for the proposed NV how much does that whole rig weigh?