Should more sites weigh the bbs during chrono?

[Lyndication]

At a certain point you just have to trust other players tbh, otherwise why bother? 

 

It's all an honour system anyway.

[Tackle]

10 minutes ago, Lyndication said:

At a certain point you just have to trust other players tbh, otherwise why bother? 

 

It's all an honour system anyway.

Oh I trust them.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About as far as I could throw them 😉

 

[mrfoxhound]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

It would be even handier if the ape says "I hope you're not using more than 0.3g, mate, or you'll have to put it back in the bag", so that the player can just nod and confirm "Yeah, mate, yeah, I'm using whatever you just said" without even having to make up a weight themselves.

 

The reality is that measing velocity, but not mass, is like proving a car is efficient by providing fuel receipts, then saying "Trust me bro" about the taped-over odometer.

like i said rock ape , someone who knows chrono  ,joules,fps and bb weight , pretty integral part of the hobby so they should know , the example you gave is a good example of  what not to do and should not happen that would also time to bring out the scales 

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

That “rock ape” is possibly having to chrono 100+ players, many of whom have more than one gun to chrono.  Having done that job at two different sites, you have to take some of what you are told on trust and assume that players have not dialed the hop up as far as it will go, which does leave the process open to abuse.

 

However, the key point is that the vast majority of sites only look at the velocity limit for the declared weight.

 

Random in game sampling including weighing of BBs is possibly the best approach and certainly provides a deterrent, especially when the penalty is to be sent home.

 

One of the things that I really like about AP is that they stick to what they say in the briefing.  Unlike so many sites, they do not hesitate to send people home if they ignore warnings about hit taking, MED abuse and other poor behaviour.

 I've been to sites that handle between 80/100 players regularly and have no trouble with chrono , and  people cheating the chrono are caught pretty quick and are removed before lunch , i dunno what the insistence is with not have better chrono practices 

Edited Wednesday at 11:15 by mrfoxhound

[Lyndication]

17 minutes ago, Tackle said:

About as far as I could throw them 😉

 

I mean yeah, there's always one arsehole I guess. Maybe I'm lucky that sites I play at have 90% decent players who take the rules seriously.

 

Cos fundamentally whether someone calls a hit in this game is based on trust. I've watched plenty of players cheat my hits, even after I've made them flinch and shout about it hurting. 

 

There's tonnes of ways to cheat in this hobby but it feels like taking roids for Sunday league football at a certain point lmao.

 

If someone is gaming an extra half joule by using heavier BBs and risking being outed as a cheater for it, it's just pathetic innit. 

[mrfoxhound]

21 minutes ago, Lyndication said:

 

I mean yeah, there's always one arsehole I guess. Maybe I'm lucky that sites I play at have 90% decent players who take the rules seriously.

 

Cos fundamentally whether someone calls a hit in this game is based on trust. I've watched plenty of players cheat my hits, even after I've made them flinch and shout about it hurting. 

 

There's tonnes of ways to cheat in this hobby but it feels like taking roids for Sunday league football at a certain point lmao.

 

If someone is gaming an extra half joule by using heavier BBs and risking being outed as a cheater for it, it's just pathetic innit. 

that half joule might be enough to compromise eye protection! 

[Colin Allen]

54 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

SOME people cheating the chrono are caught pretty quick and are removed before lunch

Fixed that for you.  You don’t know about the ones who are not caught.

 

You may not have realised it, but that post was an admission that what you regard as “better chrono practices” are not as effective as you seem to think.

[Lyndication]

45 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

that half joule might be enough to compromise eye protection! 

 

If it is, you need better eye protection tbh. 

 

Like you should be able to take some ijit with a boltie hitting you at point blank, because it happens.

[mrfoxhound]

37 minutes ago, Lyndication said:

 

If it is, you need better eye protection tbh. 

 

Like you should be able to take some ijit with a boltie hitting you at point blank, because it happens.

 compromise eye protection involves more then breaking , involves straps , skin foam contact , stuff like that which i think people forget about 

59 minutes ago, Colin Allen said:

Fixed that for you.  You don’t know about the ones who are not caught.

 

You may not have realised it, but that post was an admission that what you regard as “better chrono practices” are not as effective as you seem to think.

better then no chrono at all also gives better cover with insurance if anything happens,  

Edited Wednesday at 13:08 by mrfoxhound

[Lyndication]

I genuinely don't get what you're talking about with the eyepro there boss.

 

A half joule higher shot can tear the straps? Or something about skin foam contact? 

 

Isn't your skin already contacting the foam?

[The_Lord_Poncho]

43 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

 compromise eye protection involves more then breaking , involves straps , skin foam contact , stuff like that which i think people forget about 

 

No idea whether it was as a result of a hot gun (but as the thread has taken a bit of a swerve, i'll mention it anyway!), but the first game I wore my shiny new bolle X800 knock-offs (bought from a legit UK retailer), a BB launched from at least 20m away shattered the plastic fitting that the elastic strap was fixed to, and they pinged off my face in the middle of a pretty hefty assault on my position from the opposing team. I'm sure the lenses themselves could have taken a huge amount of abuse, but there are other weak points (and possibly those weak points are not actually subject to testing by the manufacturer against the various standards?). Super bad luck - definitely, but I now inspect any glasses I wear these days for similar such weaknesses.

[mrfoxhound]

 

5 minutes ago, The_Lord_Poncho said:

No idea whether it was as a result of a hot gun (but as the thread has taken a bit of a swerve, i'll mention it anyway!), but the first game I wore my shiny new bolle X800 knock-offs (bought from a legit UK retailer), a BB launched from at least 20m away shattered the plastic fitting that the elastic strap was fixed to, and they pinged off my face in the middle of a pretty hefty assault on my position from the opposing team. I'm sure the lenses themselves could have taken a huge amount of abuse, but there are other weak points (and possibly those weak points are not actually subject to testing by the manufacturer against the various standards?). Super bad luck - definitely, but I now inspect any glasses I wear these days for similar such weaknesses.

yea ive seen it a few time 

32 minutes ago, Lyndication said:

I genuinely don't get what you're talking about with the eyepro there boss.

 

A half joule higher shot can tear the straps? Or something about skin foam contact? 

 

Isn't your skin already contacting the foam?

ok so if you have full eye seal, type of foam is usually what is contacting skin  , bbs can squeeze thru the foam skin part  , yes straps and attachment points break when shot all the time 

Edited Wednesday at 13:55 by mrfoxhound

[Lyndication]

This is why I make sure eyepro I wear is EN166b rated on the frame and lens, not just the lens. 

 

Habit from working in machine shops.

[Colin Allen]

2 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

 

better then no chrono at all also gives better cover with insurance if anything happens,  

Is it better though if people are still getting caught in the morning?  It clearly isn’t doing what it is supposed to.

 

There are chronos at AP and people use them.  I have known people to do so and then put a gun back in the bag because it is hot; my mate Tom did so recently.  It is about the culture and ethos of the site; wankers don’t seem to last long there.

[mrfoxhound]

29 minutes ago, Colin Allen said:

Is it better though if people are still getting caught in the morning?  It clearly isn’t doing what it is supposed to.

 

There are chronos at AP and people use them.  I have known people to do so and then put a gun back in the bag because it is hot; my mate Tom did so recently.  It is about the culture and ethos of the site; wankers don’t seem to last long there.

still they chrono no one and only spot check , here  this is why it is bad, lets say 10 people play , we know 2 are intentionally cheating with hot shooters and the other 8 are as honest as honest can be , we don't do mandatory chrono at the start of the day and only spot check during games, we spot check during the second game, 4 people all pass, 2 people are still out on site with hot shooters.

Edited Wednesday at 15:36 by mrfoxhound

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, mrfoxhound said:

still they chrono no one and only spot check , here  this is why it is bad, lets say 10 people play , we know 2 are intentionally cheating with hot shooters and the other 8 are as honest as honest can be , we don't do mandatory chrono at the start of the day and only spot check during games, we spot check during the second game, 4 people all pass, 2 people are still out on site with hot shooters.

Which is exactly the same situation as at the vast majority of other sites.  Intentional cheats will lie about BB weights, use different BBs to chrono and dial up the hop.

 

 

[Tackle]

I think we can argue this for the next couple of months, but ultimately all sites should be chronoing at the start of the day, on one weight, probably 0.20, and be prepared to have marshals do random on the spot checks using the same weight, especially if particular players have history or complaints made against them.

End of the day, cheats WILL cheat, they'll use everything they can to achieve what the perceive to be an advantage over their fellow players, hpa, npas, quick change springs etc all enable them to make short notice changes to energy output after the chrono, & sites can't stop them, but they're letting down their honest clients by not trying their hardest to root out the cheats, & when found they should be very publicly banned.

Any site that does that, I'd play there, as was said earlier, it's all about trust so any site that works hard to push that agenda gets my vote.

[Cannonfodder]

An extra half a joule is quite a jump in muzzle energy. Eg putting the full auto limit up to 1.63j would be 418.87fps with a .2g bb. Anyone running a gun that hot deserves said gun to be inserted so far up their arse they choke on the flash hider

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

better then no chrono at all also gives better cover with insurance if anything happens

 

On that, I did some health and safety liability training last century - specifically about how to avoid being sued or charged when things go wrong, as they will.

 

It was drilled in that the worst thing you can do from a liability perspective is to identify a risk, and then put in place inadequate mitigation, because what you're doing is creating the rod that the HSE (or an insurer) will use to beat you.

 

"You claimed that all players must be checked before playing. So run us through how Harry Hotgun evaded your checks and injured Tiny Tim, and why your process failed to anticipate and prevent that."

 

How would you defend pre-game chrono, especially with "Trust me, bro" BB weights?  We all know that it's trivial to cheat it, it's not a secret. 🤷‍♂️

 

[mrfoxhound]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

On that, I did some health and safety liability training last century - specifically about how to avoid being sued or charged when things go wrong, as they will.

 

It was drilled in that the worst thing you can do from a liability perspective is to identify a risk, and then put in place inadequate mitigation, because what you're doing is creating the rod that the HSE (or an insurer) will use to beat you.

 

"You claimed that all players must be checked before playing. So run us through how Harry Hotgun evaded your checks and injured Tiny Tim, and why your process failed to anticipate and prevent that."

 

How would you defend pre-game chrono, especially with "Trust me, bro" BB weights?  We all know that it's trivial to cheat it, it's not a secret. 🤷‍♂️

 

so we take the assumption he is intentional cheating the chrono and hurts someone , and is then caught? if so, then the site wouldn't be found at fault it would be the player who intentional cheated would be found at fault 

[Rogerborg]

5 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

so we take the assumption he is intentional cheating the chrono and hurts someone , and is then caught? if so, then the site wouldn't be found at fault it would be the player who intentional cheated would be found at fault 

 

Then what was the point of the chrono?

 

If you believe players about their BB weight, why wouldn't you just believe them when they say "I'm shooting at 1.1J" ?

 

It's a genuine question. If we can agree that telling a simple lie make the chrono calculation meaningless, then does it really matter what the lie is?

[Colin Allen]

5 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

so we take the assumption he is intentional cheating the chrono and hurts someone , and is then caught? if so, then the site wouldn't be found at fault it would be the player who intentional cheated would be found at fault 

If the site had identified a risk of people attempting to cheat the chrono and someone had managed to do so, the site would very possibly be found to be at fault as their measures to prevent it happening were inadequate.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion; it is like trying to have a rational conversation with a flat earther.

[mrfoxhound]

21 minutes ago, Colin Allen said:

If the site had identified a risk of people attempting to cheat the chrono and someone had managed to do so, the site would very possibly be found to be at fault as their measures to prevent it happening were inadequate.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion; it is like trying to have a rational conversation with a flat earther.

first off why are you name calling me for wanting to have more rigours standards for chrono then none at all,   site culture and community is better then having a safety procedure?. anyone in mitigation against a site, using AP as an example  as a defence would auto win they do not have mandatory chrono and have no way of knowing how many people are cheating the chrono on any given day  

you are arguing that we dont need seat belts because  sometimes people die  wearing a seat belt. 

 

35 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Then what was the point of the chrono?

 

If you believe players about their BB weight, why wouldn't you just believe them when they say "I'm shooting at 1.1J" ?

 

It's a genuine question. If we can agree that telling a simple lie make the chrono calculation meaningless, then does it really matter what the lie is?

if they lie about bb weight its easy to tell because of the chrono results , as i said before integral part of the hobby knowing bb weight ,fps and the chrono,

the point of chrono is to cover you for insurance and insuring everyone is within the limit the site has set,if your telling porkies at the chrono and airsoft im gonna consider them a bad actor and we dont want that type of person around an honesty type hobby   

[Cannonfodder]

34 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

if they lie about bb weight its easy to tell because of the chrono results

How?

[Rogerborg]

45 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

if they lie about bb weight its easy to tell because of the chrono results

 

I honestly have no idea what this is meant to mean. If my gun is shooting hot with 0.36g, but tell you that I'm using 0.25g, how can you tell?

 

 

45 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

the point of chrono is to cover you for insurance

 

It does seem likely that insurers are happy with sites running a fundamentally farcical "Trust me bro" system. Until something does go wrong, and then they might discover that they were never really happy with it.

 

 

45 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

and insuring everyone is within the limit the site has set

 

"Trust me bro" chrono doesn't do that.

 

 

45 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

if your telling porkies at the chrono and airsoft im gonna consider them a bad actor and we dont want that type of person around an honesty type hobby

 

Oh, I fully agree. But what I really care about are catching and ejecting people shooting hot in the field, because that's the actual risk. At that point, I don't really care what lies they told earlier - and they may not have told any, they might have just pulled a hot bag out of a gun and walked straight on with it. All that really matters is that they are running a hot gun.

 

And the only way to catch that is by chronoing on the field, using BBs of a known weight.

[mrfoxhound]

43 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

How?

joules and fps not matching up