DanBow Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 United Kingdom Airsoft Federation, https://ukairsoftfederation.co.uk/index.html Thoughts on this one, by it's own admission, it's new. I for one hope that it (and this thread) don't turn into a shit show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Who runs it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said: Who runs it? a guy called Ian Lawrence. No idea who he is but its a good start to something that I think we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 The more I think about it the more I think we probably don't need such an organisation in the UK unless there is some clear specific purpose that calls for it (such as case of UKARA being a framework for providing actual legal defence) Going back to drawing board, these functions are more or less fulfilled without any centralised body. 1. Represent and Promote - already tons of airsoft content on social media and youtube 2. Regulate and Enhance - sort of perpetuated by field owners (game rules and so on) and perhaps insurance 3. Organise and Facilitate - anyone can organise any event Is the airsoft hobby fragmented? Maybe, but is there any benefit of changing that? I don't know -- I think making a patch about a fictional organisation (and writing backstories about it) can be a cool and creative exercise, but I think it needs to be honest in its execution and not mislead people into thinking it is something real. And until they can demonstrate something other than making a patch (anybody can do that) I remain sceptical. Happy to be proven wrong tho. But I don't feel there is an actual vision there, other than buzzwords. Cannonfodder, Rogerborg, heroshark and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 -- Allow me to look at this critically, Quote The UK Airsoft Federation (UKAF) is a voluntary non-Profit organisation that exists purely to uphold and enhance the reputation of the UKAF and its members by demonstrating exemplary standards in their professional conduct within the bounds of legislation. "voluntary non-profit" so logically it survives on donations (or selling patches) "purely to uphold and enhance the reputation of its members" so it's just a marketing consortium "demonstrating exemplary standards in their professional conduct" so it's not for players "within the bounds of legislation" so it's not for criminals (of course) I mean, it sounds like fiction Also, your patch says "I'm a supporter", not "a member", so it means you are basically just a fan, but you're not part of the club On the whole it doesn't seem to have any purpose, other than someone making patches as a hobby DanBow and Cannonfodder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 I agree with your points but think the attitude of we'll deal with it (the shit hitting the fan) when it happens is short sighted. If nothing else, anything that brings some community spirit and promotion, or even positive PR to the wider masses is a good thing. Saying all that, I'm still a newbie so maybe I'm looking for something to make me feel like I belong or some feeling of being a part of something that will work in our favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robinson Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Back in the day, we in the heating and plumbing industry were pissed off with CORGI (Council of registered Gas Installers) who were the licensed body in charge of registrations and making sure we were all qualified and under some form of authority should we fuck up. It had developed into not much more than a pain in the backside and were flogging insurance on the side using the data we were compelled to provide from our customers. So a few people got together and formed ARGI (Association for Registered Gas Installers) to try and defend the interests of small businesses and sole traders. The parallels to these UK Airsoft bodies is striking - it was little more than a knitting circle that had the right intentions, but no clue what to do and even less authority to do it. Certainly made no difference to the industry or the rules and regulations. It ended up imploding with the key players arguing like drunken housewives. Pseudotectonic, DanBow and Colin Allen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 It is hard to see what this Federation (a federation of what) is going to do that will be beneficial for the hobby. It seems to have had a FB page in some form for a couple of years with no noticeable impact on the hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 @DanBow I think in the UK we already have a rather robust set of laws around airsoft already, which is not really in any danger that I am aware of, so there is no such shit that can hit the fan, so to speak, and even if it might, the UK legislation process is long enough and we will have opportunities to fight it, but until then, we cannot predict what it is about, and we cannot prepare for something we have no idea about that might not even exist. Not too long ago Canada had the Bill C-21 which threatened the airsoft community, as far as I know there was not one single "association" to save the day, but it did bought the whole community together and they all lobbied together (obviously there is someone organising some campaigns) but I don't think it was pre-planned. Similarly not too long ago the CPSC-2023-0021 in the US was just a matter of people coming together and put in some signatures (not sure how that turned out) but as far as I know, it didn't end up impacting airsoft in the US. As far as I know, again there was no single organisation responsible. So if such a mythical shit were to manifest and float towards the British fan, I don't think it will be any facebook group that can beat it alone but the entire industry and community will come together, and UKARA being our airsoft illuninati who is about to lose a lot of business is surely going to champion any campaign against such mythical shit. I think the last thread had someone had mentioned the behind the scenes of how UKARA came about or something like that. Just to say, I don't think there is any lobbying to do for anyone at the moment, nor there is any foreseeable existential threat, and even if there is, we won't need a facebook group to "save the day", therefore if you want to join one, you probably want to join it for the other reasons e.g. finding a a community, which is totally valid. But then again, nothing will bring the community together better like another VCRA or something. And if you are just talking about individual cases, I think UKAPU has a few blog posts explaining the law, but that's it, I don't think they provide direct support to any actual case. Colin Allen and DanBow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonfodder Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) Every few years someone comes out of nowhere pushing their new organisation and making lots of grand but very wishy washy claims about how they're going to be the people to represent airsoft only to amount to nothing. I can't see how this lot are any different Edited February 17 by Cannonfodder Pseudotectonic, DanBow and Colin Allen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said: @DanBow And if you are just talking about individual cases, I think UKAPU has a few blog posts explaining the law, but that's it, I don't think they provide direct support to any actual case. They do support actual cases. Edited February 17 by Asomodai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 28 minutes ago, Asomodai said: They do support actual cases. Can you link to, or back up that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 @Asomodai how does it work? do they give expert witness or something? or do they help finding lawyers etc and how does it work in terms of liability, since UKAPU is not a legal entity, would it be down to the assigned (?) volunteer (?) for each case? Colin Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said: @Asomodai how does it work? do they give expert witness or something? or do they help finding lawyers etc and how does it work in terms of liability, since UKAPU is not a legal entity, would it be down to the assigned (?) volunteer (?) for each case? It would probably enhance their credibility if they put some anonymised case studies on their website, so that people can see the sort of support that they have provided. The potential liability issues are interesting. Having just read their charter and code of practice, it is clear that UKAF is intended to be a trade organisation. https://ukairsoftfederation.co.uk/assets/files/UKAF_Code_of_Practice_v2.pdf Edited February 17 by Colin Allen Cannonfodder and Pseudotectonic 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Interesting find (Note UKAF is not UKAPU) The codes looks a bit pointless because they are all pretty normal things any business is already expected to do, and with extra restrictions you only find in professional bodies like disciplinary and complaints, lol, what are they gonna do, expel them from their excel file? Colin Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robinson Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Colin Allen said: Having just read their charter and code of practice, it is clear that UKAF is intended to be a trade They need to proof read it all again. It is a litany of spelling, grammatical and stylistic disasters. Edited February 17 by Dan Robinson Cannonfodder and Colin Allen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 17 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said: Interesting find (Note UKAF is not UKAPU) The codes looks a bit pointless because they are all pretty normal things any business is already expected to do, and with extra restrictions you only find in professional bodies like disciplinary and complaints, lol, what are they gonna do, expel them from their excel file? Yes, my posts were merged. The UKAF documents look like they were cobbled together over a few beers by people who really did not know what they were doing. Pseudotectonic and Cannonfodder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 I didn't know I can be disappointed in someone larping as a professional body, but I am thoroughly disappointed Colin Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said: @Asomodai how does it work? do they give expert witness or something? or do they help finding lawyers etc and how does it work in terms of liability, since UKAPU is not a legal entity, would it be down to the assigned (?) volunteer (?) for each case? Depends what you mean by case (Court, Importation, Police). Legal representation in court has not been provided (Haven't been asked/not been needed). However UKAPU has helped guide people through first steps through importation/travel/police issues. Including when to go to a lawyer and to provide direction for the lawyer. In fact UKAPU have a form you can fill out. Ask for legal help — UKAPU Edited February 17 by Asomodai Pseudotectonic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 8 minutes ago, Asomodai said: Depends what you mean by case (Court, Importation, Police). Legal representation in court has not been provided (Haven't been asked/not been needed). However UKAPU has helped guide people through first steps through importation issues and issues with the police. Including when to go to a lawyer and to provide direction for the lawyer via the person in question. In fact UKAPU have a form you can fill out. Ask for legal help — UKAPU I suspect they would struggle to provide legal representation in court if requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Colin Allen said: I suspect they would struggle to provide legal representation in court if requested. Quite possibly. No one in UKAPU is a lawyer and being in the committee is completely voluntary. But I would suggest that UKAPU; considering they have decent legal texts, are probably better suited to dish out advice on a voluntary basis than the UK Airsoft Federation. UKAF appear to be more about what they want to be, but have little about how. 5 hours ago, DanBow said: United Kingdom Airsoft Federation, https://ukairsoftfederation.co.uk/index.html Thoughts on this one, by it's own admission, it's new. I for one hope that it (and this thread) don't turn into a shit show! Ian Lawrence was one of the guys behind the defunct ATB. He has said multiple times that he want's UKAF to be Governing Body of Airsoft. Edited February 17 by Asomodai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robinson Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Asomodai said: Governing Body of Airsoft Those who want to govern are possibly least suited for it. Colin Allen and Cannonfodder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, DanBow said: Can you link to, or back up that? It's not public information unless the person who had the problem gives permission for it to be posted (When the issue has concluded). Edited February 17 by Asomodai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 What specifically is the legal help? It says it only deals with border force seized goods and issues with police, so what exactly do you do to help? Do you submit notice of claim for the person and follow up? And what do you do with the police exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 5 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said: What specifically is the legal help? It says it only deals with border force seized goods and issues with police, so what exactly do you do to help? Do you submit notice of claim for the person and follow up? And what do you do with the police exactly? The help is directly to the person, I couldn't say if any contact was made directly to a lawyer, BF or to the police from UKAPU. I think an offer has been made to contact a solicitor directly but it was not taken up by the person who's solicitor it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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