Cybergun F2000 (Cyma) - Internal upgrades / tinkering

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, Asomodai said:

AOE on mine needed alot of correcting hence why I recommended the silent piston head. 

 

yeah, i'm not personally much of a fan of that type (preferr the standard type with wide ports) although for an aeg i don't mind the slap when firing.

 

2 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

Nozzle is going to be difficult because AUG style nozzles are different sizes and not easy to get. I'd stick with the current one and load it up with silicon oil. The stock Cyma ones really are not that bad despite how cheap it looks. 

 

aye, one of the drawbacks of going with the less common pews. although ak2m4 normally has a decent selection.

[RostokMcSpoons]

There's this one in stock... which I've stuck in my basket
https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/rocket-aug-aluminium-nozzle

 

I've already WhatsApp'd @ak2m4 to see if he can add it to the order, but he's not read my message yet... so I can back out of that if you don't think it'll work.

I measured the existing one at 25.10mm.   Is that near enough (or is "a miss is as good as a mile")?

Edited December 29, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I measured the existing one at 25.10mm.   Is that near enough (or is "a miss is as good as a mile")?

 

generally you do need to be very precise with nozzle lengths.

 

too short (and 0.3mm can definately be enough) and it'll not sit tight to the feed lips on the hop bucking and cause an air leak (reduced fps and awful fps consistency)

 

too long and as long as it clears the feed tube then it'll be ok, but if it doesn't clear the feed tube then needless to say feeding issues ensue.

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

generally you do need to be very precise with nozzle lengths.

 

too short (and 0.3mm can definately be enough) and it'll not sit tight to the feed lips on the hop bucking and cause an air leak (reduced fps and awful fps consistency)

 

too long and as long as it clears the feed tube then it'll be ok, but if it doesn't clear the feed tube then needless to say feeding issues ensue.

 

Oh shizzle.  I don't want to get this all put together only to find that it doesn't work, because I've spent enough hours trying to re-assemble it already!

Shimming it (my first attempt, of course), fitting the cylinder / head / piston and motor with the soldering and the fitting Deans etc will have kept me quite busy enough.

 

At some point I'll have to MOSFET it, perhaps as per this ... and that'll be a good time to do the nozzle (if I can find a good replacement) and also buy a new hop unit / bucking / nub / inner barrel.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Oh shizzle.  I don't want to get this all put together only to find that it doesn't work, because I've spent enough hours trying to re-assemble it already!

 

i get the feeling, especially after you've got used to it almost puts you off getting new pews when you realise how much work you're gonna end up putting in before it's up to par with the rest of the collection.

 

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Shimming it (my first attempt, of course), fitting the cylinder / head / piston and motor with the soldering and the fitting Deans etc will have kept me quite busy enough.

 

At some point I'll have to MOSFET it, perhaps as per this ... and that'll be a good time to do the nozzle (if I can find a good replacement) and also buy a new hop unit / bucking / nub / inner barrel.

 

if you're going to be cracking out the soldering iron anyway it's a perfect time to switch to a mosfet, if you dont want to splash out for a warfet just yet then the nanoasr uses the same contact setup so you can just swap it over later on.

[RostokMcSpoons]

This cheeky chappy?
https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/gate-nanoasr-3rd-gen-advanced-solid-state-relay-mosfet

 

(AK2M4 are sold out of the pre-wired Peruns which was the obvious option)

[Adolf Hamster]

46 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

This cheeky chappy?
https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/gate-nanoasr-3rd-gen-advanced-solid-state-relay-mosfet

 

(AK2M4 are sold out of the pre-wired Peruns which was the obvious option)

 

aye that's the one, very basic but will let you drop-in a warfet.

 

that is assuming you don't want to just go straight to putting a warfet in there.

[RostokMcSpoons]

6 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

aye that's the one, very basic but will let you drop-in a warfet.

 

that is assuming you don't want to just go straight to putting a warfet in there.

 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/gate-warfet-aeg-control-system-ver-1-1

 

I was thinking this one (eventually), is the Gate one better?

https://www.airsoftcentral.co.uk/perun-v3-version-3-hybrid-drop-in-airsoft-aeg-programmable-mosfet.html

 

[Adolf Hamster]

36 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/gate-warfet-aeg-control-system-ver-1-1

 

 

aye that's the one.

 

37 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I was thinking this one (eventually), is the Gate one better?

https://www.airsoftcentral.co.uk/perun-v3-version-3-hybrid-drop-in-airsoft-aeg-programmable-mosfet.html

 

if you're gonna go optical in the long run then not much point going with the wired options short-term then as they'll end up redundant.

 

not really sure about the perun vs gate thing, never really ran any of the perun options although they seem to be relatively popular. 

[RostokMcSpoons]

I'll keep things simple for the moment.. if I do anything it'll be the nano

 

Edit:   Well... I say that... the Perun AB++ is a halfway house in price (£45) but offers lots of the functionality...?

https://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/perun-ab

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons

[Adolf Hamster]

6 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I'll keep things simple for the moment.. if I do anything it'll be the nano

 

nano will just give basic contact protection, but tbh given the contacts are gonna be yeeted anyway when you go optical you might even be happy enough to live with that.

 

at least it's not the g&g version with it's weird trigger pack

[ak2m4]

@RostokMcSpoons Can't really fault the Perun's, been selling them for around a year now and they've been solid.  Perun also provide direct support so any problems they are on hand to help out.  

[RostokMcSpoons]

So like a complete dilbert I rushed into the job of changing the motor, and it was only once I'd got the cage off and de-soldered the wires that I realised I couldn't completely make sense of it
 

 

Is it the red wire that goes +ve on the motor?  I'd assume so but I didn't want to wire it wrongly and zap my motor or set the battery on fire!

Also, I'm changing the Tamiya connector to Deans but I don't know if it matters how I wire that, because both the damned wires are black (though the one I'd have thought was -ve, judging by googled pics, has a hint of red to it!)

 

Again, the desire to avoid flames and failures is strong, so I thought I'd better ask!

I did google for v3 wiring diagrams / videos, but stuff related to AUG style trigger setups and this wiring is AWOL

 

Cheers, and Happy New Year

Edited January 1, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[Adolf Hamster]

Red is conventionally positive.

 

If you get it wrong then the motor will try to run backwards which wont be good (well, it wont kill anything it'll just get stuck on the arl, obviously dont hold the power on it)

 

Whilst you can solder directly to the motor its generally handy to use connectors so you can remove it to change as needed and not have to worry about it dangling off the gearbox while your working for it.

 

With deans there's a +ve mark on them (cant remember which of the 2 it is come to think of it) and its good to stick to that so that if you get a battery with pre-soldered deans then it'll run right.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Cheers for the quick response, much appreciated

Ok, my battery is already Deans connector, I sorted that out a while ago, its fine.

I don't have any of the spade connectors so it'll have to be soldered.

 

Deans +ve is arrowed...

 

 

With Tamiya the round connector is +ve, assuming they're using the standard colour

So obviously the weird thing I can't quite get my tiny brain around is why all the wires are red in parts, but become black and red for the motor,  and yet I end up with two wires that I consider to be -ve being wired into the Deans!

Brain... is... melting.   Like my wiring if I bugger it up.

 

I could re-wire my 'old' motor back up, and ensure it runs ok, maybe that's safest.

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[RostokMcSpoons]

Update...

Wiring done after a bit of faffing about I decided "sod it" and just put it together.  
Motor spins (oooooh it's gone some oomph) when I move the trigger shuttle into contact.

 

So that's that. 

 

Assembled the piston, cylinder and cylinder head.

Here's a disappointment.

I get a better air seal with the old piston than the fancy new one.  Is there anything I could do to improve it?
I'm using Silverhook Silicone Grease as my lube, would something different (thicker?) improve the air seal?

 

Next job is shimming.  This one frightens me, having watched the how-to videos.  I don't have a viewing port in the gearbox to check the bevel and pinion engagement so it'll be a degree of guesswork right from the start, which doesn't sit well when I know that a 0.15mm shim might make all the difference.  And as my level of intuition will be like Joey Essex trying to guess the answers in a exam on orbital mechanics, I'm probably going to mess it up, aren't I? 

[Adolf Hamster]

3 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Ok, my battery is already Deans connector, I sorted that out a while ago, its fine.

 

just match to the battery then.

 

tamiya connectors can be weird in airsoft, they tend to be wired reverse to RC batteries so it's not a given that the colours match. presumably for the same reason as the eclectic wire colouring- because electrical engineers are a strange bunch.

 

as long as you keep track in your mind (write it down if needs be) which goes where then that'll do the job. if the motor runs backwards just swap the wires over problem solved.

 

20 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Assembled the piston, cylinder and cylinder head.

Here's a disappointment.

I get a better air seal with the old piston than the fancy new one.  Is there anything I could do to improve it?
I'm using Silverhook Silicone Grease as my lube, would something different (thicker?) improve the air seal?

 

you could try swapping the o rings over, see if that does it, there's other tricks like stretching the o rings or swapping them out for one slightly oversize.

 

that's an alu head isn't it? i know some of the plastic mushroom heads have issues with the texture of the plastic giving a poor seal but the alu one shouldn't.

 

24 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Next job is shimming.  This one frightens me, having watched the how-to videos.  I don't have a viewing port in the gearbox to check the bevel and pinion engagement so it'll be a degree of guesswork right from the start, which doesn't sit well when I know that a 0.15mm shim might make all the difference.  And as my level of intuition will be like Joey Essex trying to guess the answers in a exam on orbital mechanics, I'm probably going to mess it up, aren't I? 

 

never needed to cut a window and the only box i've had the luxury of viewing the motor mesh is the open bottomed a&k mg boxes, which funnily enough are awful for accumulating dirt+crap in them.

 

start by getting the idler and sector shimmed down as far as they'll go (working on the left hand half of the box) and such that they're running free even when the box is tightened up and tilted all different directions.

 

that'll give you the most wiggle room on the bevel to go up/down as needed, then shim that as above (so you know your starting point of say 1mm total, then you can swap shims from one side to the other to move it up and down)

 

you can try the bevel in the right half with the motor cage in position to give a very rough starting point, then it's just try it, adjust, try it again.

 

running the motor with just the gears can give an idea of how much noise there is, how smooth everything is sounding etc.

 

once you've got the bevel height where you want it, check how much overlap there is between the pinion and the idler and if necessary raise the idler/sector just to keep a decent overlap (ie that you're not driving on only half the teeth)

[RostokMcSpoons]

Swapping the O rings was a good shout, but didn't work.  The new one is quite weedy and loose compared to the old one, but they seem to do as well each other in action.

So it's weird, the old piston is still better. 

When the nozzle goes on, both let air through quickly though, so in the end I'm wondering if it's worth chasing a great seal, when it all goes to pot anyway

Edited January 1, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[Asomodai]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Update...

Wiring done after a bit of faffing about I decided "sod it" and just put it together.  
Motor spins (oooooh it's gone some oomph) when I move the trigger shuttle into contact.

 

So that's that. 

 

Assembled the piston, cylinder and cylinder head.

Here's a disappointment.

I get a better air seal with the old piston than the fancy new one.  Is there anything I could do to improve it?
I'm using Silverhook Silicone Grease as my lube, would something different (thicker?) improve the air seal?

 

 

Piston or Piston head? If piston head then use the O-Ring from the old piston head on the new one.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Asomodai

[RostokMcSpoons]

I might just run the old piston in the new cylinder, see how that pans out.

 

For the interest of any tech-noobs who might read this thread in the future, I amended my jig.  A couple of wood screws and an allen key go into the spring guide as I'm assembling the gearbox.   I then wedge a screwdriver in under the allen key, to the left of the screws to create a levering force to keep the guide down in the shell,  so a single finger of pressure on the cylinder is all that's required to keep things in place while I manipulate the top half and snap it down.

 

(Also used the internal screw to extend the the spring guide to its longest length, to tame the spring from jumping out sideways)

Edited January 1, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[RostokMcSpoons]

IT'S ALIVE

 

(Thanks feck for that!)

 

Now my problem is that it's running a little on the spicy side!  360-370fps with 0.20g.
The hop unit doesn't appear to impinge much on the barrel, even when fully on, so hop adjustment might not be enough to tame the beast I have created.  I may have to get an M95 and fit that.

But the motor seems to be running smoothly, and snappily, even on the half-charged NimH 1600mAH 8.4v I've been testing with.  When I slap on a Mosfet and plug in the 11.1v Li-Po it should be awesome

 

I have had one jam in the barrel, hopefully that's just down to the crappy 0.20g BB's I'm using

[ak2m4]

@RostokMcSpoons you've put it together already but check the air vents of the piston head, make sure they are clear.  It's easy to over-lube and block resulting in the oring being able to push out.

[RostokMcSpoons]

On 02/01/2022 at 09:28, ak2m4 said:

@RostokMcSpoons you've put it together already but check the air vents of the piston head, make sure they are clear.  It's easy to over-lube and block resulting in the oring being able to push out.

 

If anything the whole thing is under lubed at the moment.  I'll do a bit of test shooting with it then I'll take it apart again to apply some better grease. 

I could swap the piston over (I'm using the old one as I didn't have to worry about engagement) to see how that affects muzzle velocity as I've obviously got some excess to spare (rather than swapping the spring)

 

Edit:

I've wound out the 'quick fps adjuster' screw in the spring guide and I'm getting down to 345-355fps with some hop applied, so maybe the spring is alright as-is, but I've ordered two lots of silicon grease (one for the gears, one for the piston) from good ol' AK2M4 so I'll still be opening it up again anyway.  I'm no longer filled with fear by the internals of an airsoft gun.   This must be a good thing  (Or a bad thing for my bank balance, as I'll be prepared to change more stuff!)

 

It's firing at a healthy 14.3 rps with the Titan 7.4v Li-Ion.

 

I've definitely got a double-feed issue on full auto with my old Classic Army STANAG mag, which is the one I've been filling with the 0.20g BBs for all my chrono testing.  I've twice (in the space of a couple of hundred shots) had the barrel end up with several BBs inside.   That's a sub-optimal scenario right there.
I've only fired a few bursts through the gun with the supplied hi cap and one of my other STANAGs, they seemed ok so it might just be finicky with the mags, but I'm really going to need to 'let loose' to see how much of an issue there is.

 

Edit2:  Pinged a good few rounds on full auto with the provided hi cap mag, no problems with that one at least!

Edited January 3, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[RostokMcSpoons]

 

(Replying to @Skara in the "What have you just bought" thread...)

Cheers, I may well be able to drag the FPS under the site limit just by winding out the last of the adjustable spring guide doohickey, I've not undone 'freely' because I didn't want to wind the screw all the way out and have it rattling around... but when I crack open the gearbox to re-lube the gears and piston, I might find there's plenty of adjustment left.

If that's not the case, then presumably the 420mm barrel + un-ported cylinder counts as "plenty of volume"?

[Asomodai]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

(Replying to @Skara in the "What have you just bought" thread...)

Cheers, I may well be able to drag the FPS under the site limit just by winding out the last of the adjustable spring guide doohickey, I've not undone 'freely' because I didn't want to wind the screw all the way out and have it rattling around... but when I crack open the gearbox to re-lube the gears and piston, I might find there's plenty of adjustment left.

If that's not the case, then presumably the 420mm barrel + un-ported cylinder counts as "plenty of volume"?

 

I would snip the spring shorter before short stroking one tooth. Keep your Volume where possible.