Saying Howdy

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

Hi all! Wanted to say hello to everyone who is new to airsoft like me and all the pros too, currently working on my first loadout, then it's out to a game! Got myself a G&G M1 Garand, (Would have waited to get a UKARA but couldn't resist) I'm in Gravesend area so any recommendations for sites will be much appreciated 

[Dentonboy]

Ace Combat and Battle Lakes in the south of your fair county, well worth checking out.

[Guest]

Evening bud. I will laugh if your name is Jay 😎

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

22 minutes ago, Dentonboy said:

Ace Combat and Battle Lakes in the south of your fair county, well worth checking out.

I've heard good things about them! Will check them out :) thanks mate

13 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

Evening bud. I will laugh if your name is Jay 😎

Sadly not 😂😂 but close 

[Dentonboy]

1 minute ago, Mr.BeansOnToast said:

I've heard good things about them! Will check them out thanks mate

Sadly not 😂😂 but close 

 

Think there is a site in Chatham too, around Fort Amherst, but I may be wrong.

[Jedi_Master]

Welcome .

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

9 hours ago, Dentonboy said:

 

Think there is a site in Chatham too, around Fort Amherst, but I may be wrong.

Thanks man I will check it out!  

55 minutes ago, Jedi_Master said:

Welcome .

Thank you mate  

[MisterG]

Hi

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Cheers

 

G

[Rogerborg]

Ahoy.  That's an interesting choice for a first gun, especially two-toned.  Crikey, 20 round magazines as well, at ~335fps.  That'll be a labour of love to use.

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

21 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Ahoy.  That's an interesting choice for a first gun, especially two-toned.  Crikey, 20 round magazines as well, at ~335fps.  That'll be a labour of love to use.

😂 Indeed! My most loved gun, so I'm happy to work on it, once get my UKARA the paint will come off 

[Rogerborg]

7 minutes ago, Mr.BeansOnToast said:

once get my UKARA the paint will come off 

 

If you were stopped on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish with your imitation firearm, what would your reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies with you) be to the Firearms Act 1968 S19 offence of having it with you in a public place?

 

Note that UKARA is neither necessary, nor sufficient, and that the offence is the same regardless of whether the imitation firearm is realistic or not

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

13 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

If you were stopped on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish with your imitation firearm, what would your reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies with you) be to the Firearms Act 1968 S19 offence of having it with you in a public place?

 

Note that UKARA is neither necessary, nor sufficient, and that the offence is the same regardless of whether the imitation firearm is realistic or not

You are not the first to say that, so if I was to take the paint straight off would that then void the warranty of it? and would I need a UKARA to do so? 

[Musica]

Technically by the law to my understanding if you modify an imitation firearm to be a realistic imitation firearm. That is against the law. UKARA has nothing to do with it as that is only a defence used to purchase a RIF not modify IFs to RIFs. 

 

This is my understanding of it. Put me off buying a two tone pistol and replacing the slide (which I was going to replace anyway with a metal one) Rather do it by the book only toy guns after all. 

 

It's important to think about transportation as Rogerborg has said. They can't be visible in public and if your carrying it about with you or leave it in your car when your not going to or from a place to use it or where it was just used then you have no defence to why it's out in public.  Again don't think of UKARA as a defence for anything other than purchasing a RIF.  People are allowed to own RIFs without UKARA. It covers nothing but point of sale and as the buyer your not committing any crime buying a RIF without UKARA it's the sellers responsibility to prove the buyer has a defence. 

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

15 minutes ago, Musica said:

Technically by the law to my understanding if you modify an imitation firearm to be a realistic imitation firearm. That is against the law. UKARA has nothing to do with it as that is only a defence used to purchase a RIF not modify IFs to RIFs. 

 

This is my understanding of it. Put me off buying a two tone pistol and replacing the slide (which I was going to replace anyway with a metal one) Rather do it by the book only toy guns after all. 

 

It's important to think about transportation as Rogerborg has said. They can't be visible in public and if your carrying it about with you or leave it in your car when your not going to or from a place to use it or where it was just used then you have no defence to why it's out in public.  Again don't think of UKARA as a defence for anything other than purchasing a RIF.  People are allowed to own RIFs without UKARA. It covers nothing but point of sale and as the buyer your not committing any crime buying a RIF without UKARA it's the sellers responsibility to prove the buyer has a defence. 

Ahhh right okay, I see! Makes sense, thanks mate  

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Mr.BeansOnToast said:

You are not the first to say that, so if I was to take the paint straight off would that then void the warranty of it? and would I need a UKARA to do so? 

 

Here's the train of thought I'm inviting you to board.

 

Modifying an IF into a RIF is an offence.  But in practice that's only an issue if it comes to the attention of a copper.

 

And that's most likely to happen when you're found to be in possession of the imitation firearm in a public place, yes?

 

If that happens, your immediate problem is not VCRA, it's Firearms Act 1968 S19, to which you need to produce and prove a reasonable excuse for possession at that time.  Having a UKARA number is neither here nor there with regards to possession. And it's immaterial whether it's an IF or a RIF - we know of a conviction for possession of a bright orange springer Glock.

 

So: your reasonable excuse is that you're on your way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site, right?  This is why I recommend that everyone keeps booking information or some sort of attendance confirmation to hand while in transit, even if it's just an "I'm attending" on a Facebook event.

 

OK, so you've cleared that hurdle and satisfied the constable that you have a reasonable excuse to possess an IF or a RIF at that time. Then even in the very unlikely event that they also know that it's an offence to convert an IF into a RIF, and even if they care, and even if they suspect you of doing so, and even if they make the accusation, and even if you're daft enough to admit it, then you can still produce a defence to that, which is that it's been done for the purposes of a permitted activity, i.e. ... an airsoft skirmish at an insured site.

 

I'm not advocating any course of action, just pointing out that if you can produce a suitable answer to "Why do you have that IF?" (and you'd best be prepared to do so), then the same defence very likely applies to "Why did you turn that IF into a RIF?"

[Musica]

@rogerborn I don't think you can use a defence for modification from IF to RIF?  I'd not bring the subject up at all if they asked if it had been modified or something I'd start talking about deans connectors, Lipos, gear ratios motors and springs or external mods like grips flash hiders  scopes.  But it's so much easier to avoid this offence by just getting UKARA first and not modifying a IF. I wouldn't lie about it if asked directly as that's digging a deeper hole IMO. 

 

[Mr.BeansOnToast]

43 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Here's the train of thought I'm inviting you to board.

 

Modifying an IF into a RIF is an offence.  But in practice that's only an issue if it comes to the attention of a copper.

 

And that's most likely to happen when you're found to be in possession of the imitation firearm in a public place, yes?

 

If that happens, your immediate problem is not VCRA, it's Firearms Act 1968 S19, to which you need to produce and prove a reasonable excuse for possession at that time.  Having a UKARA number is neither here nor there with regards to possession. And it's immaterial whether it's an IF or a RIF - we know of a conviction for possession of a bright orange springer Glock.

 

So: your reasonable excuse is that you're on your way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site, right?  This is why I recommend that everyone keeps booking information or some sort of attendance confirmation to hand while in transit, even if it's just an "I'm attending" on a Facebook event.

 

OK, so you've cleared that hurdle and satisfied the constable that you have a reasonable excuse to possess an IF or a RIF at that time. Then even in the very unlikely event that they also know that it's an offence to convert an IF into a RIF, and even if they care, and even if they suspect you of doing so, and even if they make the accusation, and even if you're daft enough to admit it, then you can still produce a defence to that, which is that it's been done for the purposes of a permitted activity, i.e. ... an airsoft skirmish at an insured site.

 

I'm not advocating any course of action, just pointing out that if you can produce a suitable answer to "Why do you have that IF?" (and you'd best be prepared to do so), then the same defence very likely applies to "Why did you turn that IF into a RIF?"

Thanks mate, is a good way of putting it and making it more clear 👍

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Musica said:

@rogerborn I don't think you can use a defence for modification from IF to RIF?

 

Modification offence  = https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

Defences to the offence = https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

Amended defences include airsoft skirmishing = https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

 

[Musica]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Modification offence = https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

Defences to the offence = https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

Amended defences include airsoft skirmishing = https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

 

Ok so I think I have my facts straight now. It's always an offence to modify a IF to RIF but there are defences to committing this offence and using it for skirmishing at a registered site counts as a defence. 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

6 minutes ago, Musica said:

It's always an offence to modify a IF to RIF but there are defences to committing this offence and using it for skirmishing at a registered site counts as a defence. 

 

Yes.

 

Having a UKARA number is a good way to adduce that defence, but it's not the only way.  For example, I played one game, booked another, bought a two-tone and stripped it.  I later related what I'd done to an airsofter who - surprise! - turned out to be a copper.  Fortunately, he agreed with my reasoning.

 

Again, we have to be very careful not to advocate or suggest anything illegal, but the nub of my gist is that if you're being sensible with what you do with your RIFs, then the issue of whether you modified an IF into a RIF isn't likely to come up, and even if it does, then you're likely to have a good defence.

 

This doesn't apply to the obviously underage types who rock up here regularly squeaking "how i get cool gun tho???", but they're going to do what they're going to do regardless.

[Immortal]

There's so many threads on defences and do's & don't's it hurts my grey matter. However this thread has for once laid it out in a simpler way to understand where we stand in terms of a Defence and what it means. In one page too! Amazy-balls.....

 

Greetings BTW!