Is being a Film student at college a valid defence to buy an RIF?

[Curt]

Hello! I am a film student at college (I'm 16) and I need an RIF if a revolver for one of my projects, I know that I could get a gun sprayed two tone but that won't work for the prop. I am pretty sure I would not be allowed to take it skirmishing but if I have the defence of using it as a prop, would it be possible to buy one from a UK site?

Any help would be appreciated!

[skintrade]

Not usually a valid defence, I'm a film maker but because I am freelance I'm not covered either (not registered as a company). Film and TV production companies are covered with being registered at Companies House, Schools Universities etc are not.

 

Also even with a valid defence you have to be 18, so age is against you.

[Jedi_Master]

No.  It is illegal for children (under 18) to be sold or purchase an IF or RIF.  There is no defence.

 

You will need an adult to obtain an airsoft gun regardless of you having any film related course/credential.

[Rogerborg]

56 minutes ago, Curt said:

I need an RIF if a revolver for one of my projects

 

Then you'll have absolutely no problem getting the faculty to purchase it, and loan it to you for the purposes of your performance, will you?

[Tommikka]

As in the other posts, you are too young to purchase either an IF or RIF.

All the VCRA authorised activities indicate that the use is at locations or for organisations with the appropriate liability insurance 

 

You let yourself down slightly by mentioning that you wouldn’t be allowed to use it for skirmishing.  (Possession of a RIF isn’t an offence under the VCRA, so if you were gifted one then you would be able to use it on an appropriate site)

 

Film making is also a sore subject as this was the false defence used by a very dodgy dealer who was handling guns for organized crime.  His activities included false documentation on blank firers and deactivated weapons.  They were either genuine firearms or he was reconverting them back to live fire.

He claimed to be working on bond films for the “secrecy” and his inability to correctly document what he was using

 

For filmmaking in college you ought to be able to get props ordered via the college.  It will then be their prop and you won’t have any issues.  Just sign it out and hand it back

There is also not an absolute necessity for realism in student films, many have used pretty much anything which expresses their creativity 

 

[skintrade]

15 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Film making is also a sore subject as this was the false defence used by a very dodgy dealer who was handling guns for organized crime. 

 

I remember this happening, cast a very dim light on the entire indie film community... I started way back before the VCRA requirements kicked in, even then we were always very clear about our reasons for ownership (helped I was an airsofter back then, so getting them was always a double bonus for me), in more recent time I recommended to people to rent as needed, as it means with the right supplier you can actually get actual props with firearms specialists on hand.

I would never recommend any student film include RIFs without appropriate on location supervision, hell most of the film makers I work with only use a RIF or RIFs sparingly, and one day rental is cheaper than purchase.

[AshOnSnow]

I bought RIFs for university projects, but equally you must be 18 to purchase them anyway regardless of reason. So in your case, no. The “defences” are reasons to purchase, not excemptions from age restriction.

 

If you’re still studying film at university and want to purchase RIFs for a project, a signed headed letter from your course coordinator should suffice.

11 hours ago, skintrade said:

Not usually a valid defence, I'm a film maker but because I am freelance I'm not covered either (not registered as a company). Film and TV production companies are covered with being registered at Companies House, Schools Universities etc are not.

 

Also even with a valid defence you have to be 18, so age is against you.

 

I’ve never had any issues procuring RIFs for film projects. That’s how I got into airsoft in the first place. You should have the insurance to cover it (which you should have to cover cast and crew on set anyway), and if you’re in public it opens up a can of worms with police notifications, cordons and security measures, but I wasn’t aware of a legal requirement to be a registered company. The law defines “for Film, Television purposes” by referencing another piece of legislation (I believe the copyrights act) for the definition, which presents no requirement for limited company registration.

[skintrade]

3 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

The law defines “for Film, Television purposes” by referencing another piece of legislation (I believe the copyrights act) for the definition, which presents no requirement for limited company registration.

 

I agree it's not actually specified in the VCRA, however it's something that every retailer i have dealt with in the last 5 or 6 years has rejected over (even most of the professional rental firms too). I've come up against this, due to the fact they check the existence of a company actually existing, partly to avoid the "I'm a film maker innit bud. I'm not really a toe rag looking to wave it in the face of someone I'm nicking from." issue, and partly to cover the issues with people providing RIFs and those converted to firing real ammo to criminals (see a previous response). But, as we all know ownership is not really the issue, but purchasing. 

 

One other note @Curt you list local fields on your profile, chat with players there if they can help you with loans or on set aid.

[AshOnSnow]

7 hours ago, skintrade said:

 

I agree it's not actually specified in the VCRA, however it's something that every retailer i have dealt with in the last 5 or 6 years has rejected over (even most of the professional rental firms too). I've come up against this, due to the fact they check the existence of a company actually existing, partly to avoid the "I'm a film maker innit bud. I'm not really a toe rag looking to wave it in the face of someone I'm nicking from." issue, and partly to cover the issues with people providing RIFs and those converted to firing real ammo to criminals (see a previous response). But, as we all know ownership is not really the issue, but purchasing. 

 

One other note @Curt you list local fields on your profile, chat with players there if they can help you with loans or on set aid.

 

Compiled all the relevant legal mumbo jumbo from the 4 sections of law pertaining to selling RIFs for filming (VCRA S36, VCRA S37; CDPA S5B; Comms Act 2003 S405) into one lump paragraph:

 

A person is guilty of an offence if he sells a realistic imitation firearm (RIF). It shall be a defence for a person charged with this offence to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the RIF in question available for the production of a film (a recording on any medium from which a moving image may by any means be produced) or television programme (any programme, with or without sounds, which is produced wholly or partly to be seen on television and consists of moving or still images, or of legible text, or of a combination of those things).

[skintrade]

@AshOnSnow never quibbled the wording of the law, just had no end of issues around the implementation of it from retailers and rentals - used to be easy when I started film and TV production work in the early 90s 😉

[AshOnSnow]

Just now, skintrade said:

@AshOnSnow never quibbled the wording of the law, just had no end of issues around the implementation of it from retailers and rentals - used to be easy when I started film and TV production work in the early 90s 😉

 

I think you've just had some jobsworth grumpy retailers. Bad luck there.

[skintrade]

Just now, AshOnSnow said:

 

I think you've just had some jobsworth grumpy retailers. Bad luck there.

 

LOL quite possibly, going to be less hassle once I get my UKARA sorted tho, over 12 years away from social pew pew and coming back to it. Will make my 'fun fun' help my 'work fun' 

[AshOnSnow]

8 minutes ago, skintrade said:

 

LOL quite possibly, going to be less hassle once I get my UKARA sorted tho, over 12 years away from social pew pew and coming back to it. Will make my 'fun fun' help my 'work fun' 

 

I never use my UKARA to buy RIFs for film work. If there's any question later if there's some kind of incident, or lets say it gets stolen and the police are investigating, I don't want to be trying to add "well I bought it for film work, but I told the supplier it was for my own personal recreation" complications into the already complex rules surrounding it. What happens when the police go to the retailer, ask "when did you sell a glock 17 for such and such tv show?" and the shop manager comes back and says "We've never heard of that show, nobody's informed us of that". For what started as a theft, mr policeman is now writing "retailer has no knowledge of selling a gun for this show" in his little book of secrets. Opens up a whole new can of worms.

I'm someone who likes doing things by the book.

[skintrade]

I'll be buying for skirmishing first and foremost, as I said in a previous response, I recommend hiring proper replicas for production work as they hold up to geardo scrutiny on screen and once you factor in rubber replicas for stunt work, blank and plug firers etc it is so much less hassle and cheaper for the amount they get used (helps to have specialists on hand for safety too). I meant it in terms of if I have them for my own fun flinging balls about, then the rare time I need it for a small project it's there. I was not saying claim it's for A and use for B instead. I do have a couple of RIFs for low budget stuff, cheap ass Chinese water bomb flingers that in fleeting passes you barely notice. 

[Immortal]

If you take a gun for a prop to college for a film then consider what you do with it when not filming.

 

Many moons ago a college friend had the same idea to bring a blank firing pistol in for a film he wanted to make. He had a "dickhead" moment which saw 6 of us in a police cell for the afternoon. Guilty by association.

 

The film was never made.... lol

[AshOnSnow]

12 minutes ago, skintrade said:

I'll be buying for skirmishing first and foremost, as I said in a previous response, I recommend hiring proper replicas for production work as they hold up to geardo scrutiny on screen and once you factor in rubber replicas for stunt work, blank and plug firers etc it is so much less hassle and cheaper for the amount they get used (helps to have specialists on hand for safety too). I meant it in terms of if I have them for my own fun flinging balls about, then the rare time I need it for a small project it's there. I was not saying claim it's for A and use for B instead. I do have a couple of RIFs for low budget stuff, cheap ass Chinese water bomb flingers that in fleeting passes you barely notice. 

 

I've heard a lot about the plug firers, never used them myself. A lot of the projects I work on from a post production aspect are shot in the UAE and Oman, they use the real deal guns there, loaded with blanks. I found the airsoft guns were best for the UK, also because on a few occasions we've discussed using the 8mm blanks, health and safety has mandated hearing protection for those in immediate vicinity (eg the actor shooting). Put some black tape over the gas ports, I've had to repaint a few of those pesky green WE nozzles, and the visual guys have a really good library of muzzle flashes and shell ejections from different angles. Keep a big bag of real spent shells to scatter around the place during cuts, and you're golden.

[skintrade]

Before Ash and I completely hijack the thread....

 

tldr;

You're under 18 so you can't buy yourself under any defence.

Ask the college to purchase or hire for use, you are loaned it by them for purpose, it's down to the retailer to be happy with selling it to the college

If someone who has a defence gives or loans you an Airsoft RIF you are totally allowed to skirmish with it, there's no law against that.

[Rogerborg]

15 hours ago, skintrade said:

Before Ash and I completely hijack the thread....

 

You've rescued it, this is fascinating stuff.

[NRG]

 

On 15/10/2018 at 17:36, AshOnSnow said:

 

Compiled all the relevant legal mumbo jumbo from the 4 sections of law pertaining to selling RIFs for filming (VCRA S36, VCRA S37; CDPA S5B; Comms Act 2003 S405) into one lump paragraph:

 

A person is guilty of an offence if he sells a realistic imitation firearm (RIF). It shall be a defence for a person charged with this offence to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the RIF in question available for the production of a film (a recording on any medium from which a moving image may by any means be produced) or television programme (any programme, with or without sounds, which is produced wholly or partly to be seen on television and consists of moving or still images, or of legible text, or of a combination of those things).

Hi, I know this is an old thread but I have a question. 

 

I want to use an airsoft glock for a short film, very amateur I don't study film or anything. 

 

I can't buy an airsoft gun for it because retailers need insurance and your company registration. 

 

But I was wondering if it's legal to remove the two tone pain from a gun for a film?

 

I know it's illegal to remove two tone from an air soft gun, but if I use it for a film I can prove it was for film, so according to the law it should theoretically be legal?

 

I just want to check before I do it because it's a grey area, I was thinking about getting a glock BB co2 replica to use instead because it's legal but it's very expensive and i don't think I'll be able to fire it empty which is what I need. 

[Tommikka]

8 minutes ago, NRG said:

 

Hi, I know this is an old thread but I have a question. 

 

I want to use an airsoft glock for a short film, very amateur I don't study film or anything. 

 

I can't buy an airsoft gun for it because retailers need insurance and your company registration. 

 

But I was wondering if it's legal to remove the two tone pain from a gun for a film?

 

I know it's illegal to remove two tone from an air soft gun, but if I use it for a film I can prove it was for film, so according to the law it should theoretically be legal?

 

I just want to check before I do it because it's a grey area, I was thinking about getting a glock BB co2 replica to use instead because it's legal but it's very expensive and i don't think I'll be able to fire it empty which is what I need. 

It’s not a grey area.  You don’t meet the film making criteria 

 

You’re making an amateur film, a two tone could be good enough.  It was good enough for Hollywood to have Jesus Christ Superstar with gun props instead of swords and spears.  The art will shine through whether the gun is pink or black 

 

A BB replica is really an airgun which is a legal but real firearm, thus is different from a RIF / two tone IF

 

Sellers and forum members may be a bit worried about someone making a film without the appropriate cover.  Where are you going to have this gun waved about, what are your controls on ensuring it is empty?

 

 

 

With removing the colour / repainting a two tone the offence always exists

 

Its up to you whether you do it or not 

[EDcase]

Also depends where you intend to film.

Anywhere in public view (even your own garden) can have very serious consequences.

Don't even think of filming in school unless its approved and supervised by a teacher. (responsibility would be on them)

 

Maybe use some clever film techniques instead. ie backlight the shots of the gun so its more of a silhouette and fast cuts so you don't see it for very long.  Use a torch out of shot pointing at the gun and turn it on when it fires to simulate the gun flash then cut away after a few frames of the light going on.

[NRG]

5 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

It’s not a grey area.  You don’t meet the film making criteria 

 

You’re making an amateur film, a two tone could be good enough.  It was good enough for Hollywood to have Jesus Christ Superstar with gun props instead of swords and spears.  The art will shine through whether the gun is pink or black 

 

A BB replica is really an airgun which is a legal but real firearm, thus is different from a RIF / two tone IF

 

Sellers and forum members may be a bit worried about someone making a film without the appropriate cover.  Where are you going to have this gun waved about, what are your controls on ensuring it is empty?

 

 

 

With removing the colour / repainting a two tone the offence always exists

 

Its up to you whether you do it or not 

 

It will just be used indoors in my house or my friends house and I know it will be empty because I don't and won't own any BBs and will check repeatedly, you have to empty and alter the mag to make it blow back dry so there's no real risk of injury.

 

I'm happy to use a two tone one they look quite cool and it actually won't effect the story of the film, but I wanted to find out if there was any way to use the proper one because it would add a huge level of professionalism to it.

 

I'm still a bit confused because in the law it doesn't say anything about insurance,  all it says is that if you can prove it's for a film (which is all footage) it's valid?

 

Anyhow I can always get the c02 version, I want a glock replica by umarex, and the two I'm looking at are externally Identical. The only difference is the co2 version is legal to own and the airsoft version is not! Seems silly that I put my actors at more risk on set by following the law. I'll probably just get a cheaper two tone version anyway, but it's a shame when it's for a very specific and harmless personal project. 

[EDcase]

They ask for 'Public Liability Insurance' because that's required by production companies when making a film.  Of course it doesn't count just to say "I'm making a film"

 

We all agree the law is confusing and the air pistol vs airsoft thing is ridiculous but that's what we've got...

[NRG]

2 minutes ago, EDcase said:

They ask for 'Public Liability Insurance' because that's required by production companies when making a film.  Of course it doesn't count just to say "I'm making a film"

 

We all agree the law is confusing and the air pistol vs airsoft thing is ridiculous but that's what we've got...

Fair enough, it's confusing but the laws seem sensible, for airsoft guns anyway. 

 

Thanks for the advice! I'll use a two tone one for now, I'll also try playing airsoft because it looks really fun and I never knew it existed until now! 

 

 

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, NRG said:

....

I'm still a bit confused because in the law it doesn't say anything about insurance,  all it says is that if you can prove it's for a film (which is all footage) it's valid?

 

The only difference is the co2 version is legal to own and the airsoft version is not! Seems silly that I put my actors at more risk on set by following the law.....

The act itself doesn’t specify insurance, but there is both Home Office guidance and statutory instruments 

Guidance is just a general guide to the police etc on how legislation may be interpreted, statutory instruments are extensions to the legislation (they are provided for in the VCRA) and the airsofters skirmish Defence is under a statutory instrument - which does include PLI in airsoft and re-enactment (I’ve not looked it up to clarify for filmwork)

 

The offence in a sale is committed by the seller, and they would be looking at a £1000, £2500 or £5000 fine.  

Even if the law doesn’t specify PLI it’s pretty reasonable for a retailer to expect you to come up with something like that to proove your intent . It costs little to get PLI of £millions for an activity

 

 

The difference between the airsoft 6mm plastic BB gun and a BB airgun  is that the airgun is a firearm in accordance with Firearms legislation.  You do not need a licence for an airgun

(BB gun is an American term or a description of a ball bearing projectile as opposed to a lead pellet) 

 

The VCRA is intended as an anti chav law to keep cheap lookalike guns out of their hands, and to remove any claims of it just being a toy

If they commit a crime with an airgun then its a full firearms offence

 

 

As an aside, the film industry is very sensitive about guns.

A black market arms dealer used the ‘mystery’ of Bond films to justify his vagueness in obtaining many variants of replicas, deactivated firearms etc which he would then re-machine in his shed, and also ‘reloaded’ ammunition to supply organised and disorganised crime 

 

 

(Most) RIF retailers are very sensitive about who they sell to when buyers can’t document themselves