Joule Creep

[Sacarathe]

14 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

On that basis, every single gas blowback would be banned because of the way it works. You could be firing at 250fps on a .20 and still break your 1.13j limit with a really heavy BB. So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous 😂 the only time your backwards way of measuring with a heavier than intended BB would be with an unoptimised AEG

 

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

 

Now if the sites you play play or work at want to measure with joules, then whoopdy do for you. Ours don’t.

 

Ive never known anybody be so smug and condescending and yet still feel the need to point out something with no relevance to me..

 

Yes. Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g?

 

14 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

 

Please, this is a discussion not an inquisition, I'm not accusing you of anything, I have shown no intent to give you cause to be defensive.

[Wo1f]

10 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

cheating the chrono, no matter how you do it, is still cheating the chrono. wether you run .3's and claim it's .2's, if you dial down your hpa, or whatever you do. like i said, if the majority of players are happy running hotter then the site can change it's limits, they are after all arbitrary for the most part.

 

i get it, we all want that edge, but there are lines we draw between what's acceptable and what isn't, otherwise this game would descent into everyone blasting away point blank with hpa's running 600fps@50rps

It’s like taking to a dog... Explain to me how I am cheating the chrono? My sites rules are pretty simple to get your head around. You can use any weight you want during gameplay, so long as when chrono’d with a .20 it fires under 350 FPS... how am I still having to explain this is not cheating?. It’s directly following the rules of the site. It’s not the “majority of players are fine with it” it’s the sites own stipulated rules.. are you all drunk because England lost or something? How did I get dragged into this?

 

i don’t run HPA, the thought of a tank and a hose upsets me greatly. 

@Sacarathe so all GBBR’s are banned at your site? 

[Sacarathe]

You're not being accused @Wo1f, this is theoretical.

 

15 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous 😂 

 

Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g? A fail is a fail in any arbitrary weight measuring system. This is why the weight a player would use is a better system.

[Wo1f]

Your FPS will almost always drop with a heavier BB, so if you chrono under 350 FPS (assuming that’s your sites limit) with a .20, putting a .28 in it will drop your FPS even lower. 

On 12/07/2018 at 00:20, Sacarathe said:

You're not being accused @Wo1f, this is theoretical.

 

 

Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g?

No, because that’s doesn’t solve the problem. It’s specified that it must be under 350fps with a .20. If you shot say 400 with a .20 and then used a .12, your FPS would be even higher? Not sure I see what you’re getting at there? 

 

The measurement for the site I play is sub 350 on a .20. I assume because that’s the lowest weight any actual airsofter is ever going to realistically use, and also it’s a base line. They have a bottle of .20 next to the chrono and the chrono is set up for .20. It’s a quick and convenient way of determining if a gun is hot for that sites rules. 

[Adolf Hamster]

4 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

It’s like taking to a dog... Explain to me how I am cheating the chrono? My sites rules are pretty simple to get your head around. You can use any weight you want during gameplay, so long as when chrono’d with a .20 it fires under 350 FPS... how am I still having to explain this is not cheating?. It’s directly following the rules of the site. It’s not the “majority of players are fine with it” it’s the sites own stipulated rules.. are you all drunk because England lost or something? How did I get dragged into this?

 

i don’t run HPA, the thought of a tank and a hose upsets me greatly. 

@Sacarathe so all GBBR’s are banned at your site? 

 

 

see this is where the argument comes down to it, you're going on the basis that as long as it chrono's 350fps on .2's then it's fine, however you're missing the point of having that limit with that bb weight- it's energy, the site might not realise that's the important thing, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what's happening, especially as it really opens up the floor to exploiting systems that suffer from pronounced creep.

 

otherwise why ban steel bb's? i mean it's just a heavy weight bb right? no problem running those as long as it chrono's 350 on .2's.....

[Sacarathe]

17 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Your FPS will almost always drop with a heavier BB, so if you chrono under 350 FPS (assuming that’s your sites limit) with a .20, putting a .28 in it will drop your FPS even lower. 

No, because that’s doesn’t solve the problem. It’s specified that it must be under 350fps with a .20. If you shot say 400 with a .20 and then used a .12, your FPS would be even higher? Not sure I see what you’re getting at there? 

 

The measurement for the site I play is sub 350 on a .20. I assume because that’s the lowest weight any actual airsofter is ever going to realistically use, and also it’s a base line. They have a bottle of .20 next to the chrono and the chrono is set up for .20. It’s a quick and convenient way of determining if a gun is hot for that sites rules. 

 

You say its unfair to chronograph a fail on 0.3 with a gun which passes on 0.2 - but you also say that putting 0.12g into a gun which failed 0.2g is also wrong. You can't have it both ways.

 

Your posts are very hit and miss, please read the link I posted and study the chart. https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/  you seem to understand the physics but not actually care about the implications.

 

I don't intend to antagonise you but I don't see how we're going to get any further if you insist on criticising yourself. 

 

So can we please move this away from "you", and your local site, and onto what really matters here: to you are hot guns unfair or unsafe? (this is a joke question).

 

I do sincerely apologise if you've received any impression that you were being accused by me of anything at any time yesterday.

 

My goal has been to convince you that joules are better than 0.2g at a select FPS but you keep going back to "your gun at your site" which no one cares about.

[Wo1f]

1 minute ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

 

see this is where the argument comes down to it, you're going on the basis that as long as it chrono's 350fps on .2's then it's fine, however you're missing the point of having that limit with that bb weight- it's energy, the site might not realise that's the important thing, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what's happening, especially as it really opens up the floor to exploiting systems that suffer from pronounced creep.

 

otherwise why ban steel bb's? i mean it's just a heavy weight bb right? no problem running those as long as it chrono's 350 on .2's.....

I get what you’re saying,  that .20 at 350 is where they get the joule reading of 1.13 that you are presumably measured at, but it has never been an issue at the site. Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? Taking the shot a meter further back would scrub more sting out of a BB. 

 

Measuring the way they do up here here is a fast and convenient way of getting 100+ People chrono’d that’s easily spot checked in the field and in the 2+ years of playing at their sites, I’ve never come across a single incident where someone has bitched about a gun being what you would deem to be ‘hot’

 

I’m pretty sure the rules in all sites stipulate the definition of an airsoft BB and what it must be made out of. Or at least, their insurance documents will. 

 

 

 

[Sacarathe]

3 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? 

 

My eye pro doesn't have feelings. 

[Adolf Hamster]

3 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

I get what you’re saying,  that .20 at 350 is where they get the joule reading of 1.13 that you are presumably measured at, but it has never been an issue at the site. Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? Taking the shot a meter further back would scrub more sting out of a BB. 

 

Measuring the way they do up here here is a fast and convenient way of getting 100+ People chrono’d that’s easily spot checked in the field and in the 2+ years of playing at their sites, I’ve never come across a single incident where someone has bitched about a gun being what you would deem to be ‘hot’

 

I’m pretty sure the rules in all sites stipulate the definition of an airsoft BB and what it must be made out of. Or at least, their insurance documents will. 

 

 

thing is, depending on the gun setup it can be quite a significant difference, hence the point of this topic.

 

sons of ammo pointed out earlier on his gun the difference between .2 and .4 is nearly 50% increase in power, so it's not insignificant, it's certainly enough of a difference to fail the gun if it was firing the same energy on .2's.

[LightningCh]

I must have a lack of morals because I will run my sniper to chrono and have it abide by the sites rules and then use my preferred weight of bb.

 

Just like the other snipers on site 

 

I havent cheated the chrono in anyway, nor have I intentionally run my gun hot under a limit that my site doesn't measure. (Prior to knowing what joule creep is this is)

 

But even with knowing what it is.

If I choose to sort out my gun so it fires .4s under the safe J. Then yay, I'm sure it will help me when the opposing sniper fires his .2 x 500fps sniper at me.. And then when I'm bleeding and accusing him of running his gun hot, he will put .2s in and chrono the gun, and it will be deemed safe to play with.

 

Like this is a really bad attitude I have towards it but.

 

Until sites specify Joule limits.

I will continue to follow the rules

Just like the rest of the players.

 

*Opinion on subject matter*

Joule limits are the better reading, but if a site doesnt use them, then what's really the point in me using them?

 

You can still bleed from a .2 being shot at 280fps (i apologised after this happened), you could also still lose an eye if it hit directly...

End of the day, imo, we agreed to play with guns set to the site rules, and we sign away the rights on the waiver.

[Wo1f]

1 minute ago, Sacarathe said:

 

You say its unfair to chronograph a fail on 0.3 with a gun which passes on 0.2 - but you also say that putting 0.12g into a gun which failed 0.2g is also wrong. You can't have it both ways.

 

Your posts are very hit and miss, please read the link I posted and study the chart. https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/  you seem to understand the physics but not actually care about the implications.

 

I don't intend to antagonise you but I don't see how we're going to get any further if you insist on criticising yourself. 

 

So can we please move this away from "you", and your local site, and onto what really matters here: to you are hot guns unfair or unsafe? (this is a joke question).

 

I do sincerely apologise if you've received any impression that you were being accused by me of anything at any time yesterday.

 

My goal has been to convince you that joules are better than 0.2g at a select FPS but you keep going back to "your gun at your site" which no one cares about.

Because you can always use a heavier BB you can’t really go down from a .20. It’s not having it both ways. I can guarantee you that you can take ANY gbbr and put a really heavy BB in it and it will fail your joule limit. So on the basis of what you said, all GBBR’s must be banned from your site.

 

Now if you’d have said a gun fires at say 400 FPS on a .20 so just put a .30 in it then it will be under 350 I would have understood, but that would be cheating in the eyes of a site that measures FPS on a set weight. 

 

I want to point out I understand how and why your sites use joules to measure ‘hotness’ I just prefer how my sites do it, because it means upgrading your gun is more worthwhile and possible engagement distances are further. It works, everyone is happy with it and it’s convenient. While joule readings between all guns on the field will be slightly off, it’s not enough to have ever caused any noticeable negative effect or health and safety issue with the thousands of players that visit. It’s just allowed people who have set up their guns well to get that extra few meters and get the games going quicker. 

 

 

[Immortal]

0.2 @ 350 fps may or may not be hot with a heavier BB (but maybe too slow to bother using), it depends how eficient the rif is and it doesn't matter if it's air, green gas nor co2.

 

One rif may be wasting 50% of the propellant pushing a 0.2 BB registering legal whereas another rif may waste nothing at all but chrono the same with a 0.2 BB and also be legal.

 

The one initially wasting 50% of the propellant may then be hot with a heavy BB as it can use the excess propellant previously wasted to push a heavy BB faster than the one that wasn't wasting propellant which will simply slow down with a heavy BB.

 

They chrono the same at 0.2 but not with a heavier BB. That is the pickle and where the joule creep kicks in...

[Sacarathe]

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

[Wo1f]

2 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

Then why are we having this discussion? I wasn’t even a part of this thread. If you play at a site that measures like mine and I do, why fix what isn’t broken? There are more downsides to chronoing for joules than positives, despite being a ‘fairer’ measurement 

[LightningCh]

3 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

 

That waiver isn't worth anything if a gun exceeds the UK legal limits. If you injured someone with a gun which was not an airsoft gun...

 

Then im yet to be reported to the police for using my "non airsoft gun" in an airsoft game because it's being used sensibly. And is yet to cause physical harm.

And when it finally does?

Ill be checked for my MED (there must be a reason we have this right? Otherwise why have it), and my gun will be chronoed on .2s which it will pass. So nothing will be escalated from there.

 

IMO

Players agree to the guns being set to the rules, whether the rules make the gun legal or not. (Or do you not sign the waiver because it allows joule creep to make a gun hot and illegal? 😜)

 

And until sites chrono in Joules, only a fraction of people will really worry about it.

[Sacarathe]

15 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Then why are we having this discussion? I wasn’t even a part of this thread. If you play at a site that measures like mine and I do, why fix what isn’t broken? There are more downsides to chronoing for joules than positives, despite being a ‘fairer’ measurement 

 

3 hours ago, Wo1f said:

Chrono via fps on .20 as doing it by joules essentially restricts BB weight and the point of a well tuned/ upgrades gun. 350 for full auto, 450 DMR and 500 sniper. MED for DMR and sniper 20m

 

Because this thinking is dangerous and should be corrected. The current system should never be the preferred system and anyone which thinks otherwise needs reeducation (on health and safety grounds).

 

I had hoped you didn't understand, but it's clear that you do and I believe if I were to speculated right now as to what your reasons for preferring the current system might be, I would sound either sarcastic or flippant - but in any case not constructive.

 

I personally use a gun which chronos at 314 FPS on 0.2g. I don't have to worry about this stuff.

 

4 minutes ago, LightningCh said:

 

Then im

 

When I said "that waiver" I wasn't talking about you. I edited it out to avoid starting a separate discussion. 😕 Seems someone saw what I wrote.

 

[LightningCh]

4 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

Seems someone saw what I wrote.

 

 

Gotta be faster than that then 😜

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

 

any site that uses "x fps at y bb weight" is using joules, even if they don't realise that's what they're doing, hence the point of this discussion that it's possible to get significant gains if this is how it's measured that in real terms amount to an equivalent of what the site's definition of a "hot" gun is if it were to be measured properly.

 

to take sonsofammo's example:

chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph

now we chuck in some .4's and it's 293fps for a total of 1.6j, a 50% increase, but because he passed the chrono this is fine.

someone else comes along and chrono's 415fps on a .2, well he's just failed the site chrono hasn't he, but it's still 1.6j

 

the energy is the same, the effect on target is the same, and yet one is acceptable and the other is not.

 

now wether or not the 1.6j is deemed acceptable by players being hit is irrelevant, if that's the case then the site can change it's limits to reflect this (by allowing the 400fps gun to run .2's as well as the 293fps gun running .4's). the point is that it's the same thing being acheived only by some creative physics.

 

there's a reason why countries that have laws limiting the acceptable energy to constitute an airsoft gun do so in joules not fps because that's the proper definition of the attribute of a projectile that defines it's ability to cause harm.

[Wo1f]

Just now, Sacarathe said:

 

 

Because this thinking is dangerous and should be corrected. The current system should never be the preferred system and anyone which thinks otherwise needs reeducation (on health and safety grounds).

 

I had hoped you didn't understand, but it's clear that you do and I believe if I were to speculated right now as to what your reasons might be, I would sound either sarcastic or flippant. 

 

I personally use a gun which chronos at 314 FPS on 0.2g. I don't have to worry about this stuff.

 

You don’t have to worry because it’s an AEG? which is a fixed volume of air. A gbbr firing at 280 FPS on a .20 would still easily have the potential to break 1.13 joules. 

 

Maybe its dangerous to idiots who do stupid things at their sites, but I’ve never come across any fps related issues in all my time playing. Id consider myself a very sensible player. If I play as a DMR or sniper I always have a range finder with me, and I always check when I first try a new site about how far away certain objects or buildings are away from other things so I have never been in a position where MED has even been questioned because I make a point of following the rules. 

 

Your thinking is more dangerous, because the last thing airsoft needs is more stringent and unnecessary rules to hamper the sport. The system we have works. It’s quick and easily verified on or off the field with no chance of lying because there are .20 BB’s at the chrono. 

 

so I may have .01 joules more than someone else. I also have 30 rounds in my mags compared to everyone’s 300 round high caps. In the interest of fairness, should I be allowed 10 shots per life to even up my odds? No, of course not. This is how ridiculous this conversation is. 

 

[Sacarathe]

18 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

42 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

 

<Snip>

 

YKWIM

 

15 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

The system we have works.

 

This is pointless, you take everything personally. How you play, where you play, and what gun you use is irrelevant.

 

I too operate the same way you do when I come to a field, I chrono on 0.2g, I put in my 0.25g or 0.3g BBs and play the game. But this was never about how you/we play.

 

Twas about why you think 0.2g at various FPS is the best system for chronographing. But you can't manage to discuss it without all this foofa about "I follow my local site's rules".

 

It's clear that you would personally be disadvantaged under the joules/players chosen weight system. 

 

All that said, because I REALLY don't wish to be antagonistic, please don't take this conclusion as judgemental or sarcastic or whatever. I had hoped to change your mind, but you hoped to change my mind, so impasse it is. I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong.  No harm.

 

PS I'm not smug.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, Sacarathe said:

 

YKWIM

 

i'm getting old, i had to google that

[Sacarathe]

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'm getting old, i had to google that

 

To be fair I never used it before. Didn't want to be rude.

[LightningCh]

5 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

YKWIM

Even I went to google it and I'm only 20 😂

[Wo1f]

3 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

 

YKWIM

 

 

This is pointless, you take everything personally.

 

 

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

 

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

 

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

 

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

 

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point 😂 

[Sacarathe]

15 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

 

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

 

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

 

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

 

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point 😂 

 

Actually. I don't get your point. I suppose that's the crux of our exchange. But I'm going to bed now I'm caught up on UFC.

 

15 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player.

In an ideal world the site would provide the BBs and you wouldn't need to change the settings on the chrono. As for honesty if you can't trust fellow players why bother going at all?