Sale of RIF

[Socky]

Hi everyone,

 

I am currently selling my RIF revolver, but have encountered a problem that I cannot find an answer to on the forum as it is very specific. The buyer I am in contact with had a UKARA but it recently expired, however he has a UKPSA (United Kingdom Practical Shooting Associaton) competition licence, and also has an instagram with photos of him playing airsoft on, is this enough evidence to legally sell him this RIF?

 

I am happy that he is definitely over 18, so this will not be a problem, I will also be seeing him in person so I can verify his identity.

 

Thank you for your time, any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

Socky

[Gepard]

UKPSA is irrelevant. A buyer needs a defense. UKARA is just one way. Other evidence could be photos or booking info from previous games. 

 

If you're satisfied that the person you're selling to is an active skirmisher then by all means go right ahead. 

 

 

[Callum Hornsby]

Legally speaking he only needs a defence for the RIF the fact he has previously had a UKARA and has instagram post of him playing shows he is an airsofter.

 

At the end of the day tho if your not happy don’t sell better safe than sorry.

[L3wisD]

If it were me, that would be enough of a defence of his intentions to use the RIF for airsoft. If someone has a valid UKARA, I'll check that first as it's the easiest.

 

But it's up to you. You have to show diligence. 

 

The way I see it, If the guy decides to use it for robbing a bank, for example, and the police track the purchase back to you, are you confident you could present enough evidence to the police as to how you decided it was purchased for correct use as outlined by VCRA? 

 

Because of this, some folks are dead set on demanding UKARA from potential buyers as it covers their arse.

It definitely is easier, but it's not your only option.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Socky said:

also has an instagram with photos of him playing airsoft on

 

That alone would satisfy me.

 

There's far too much flapping over this issue. It's a private transaction, so unless you reckon he's a copper trying to sting you, or is likely to go on a rampage with it, the State isn't going to get involved.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

That alone would satisfy me.

 

There's far too much flapping over this issue. It's a private transaction, so unless you reckon he's a copper trying to sting you, or is likely to go on a rampage with it, the State isn't going to get involved.

 

Absolutely, pics, receipts, previous discussion on this forum etc etc

[proffrink]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

That alone would satisfy me.

 

There's far too much flapping over this issue. It's a private transaction, so unless you reckon he's a copper trying to sting you, or is likely to go on a rampage with it, the State isn't going to get involved.

Frankly people are right to flap until there's case law about this. So long as you can prove some diligence/attempt at due process then you'll be fine, but expecting most people to not worry about that isn't going to happen given how our part of VCRA was written.

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, proffrink said:

Frankly people are right to flap until there's case law about this.

 

The chances of any individual seller being the test case are so low that it's not reasonable to be concerned about it being you.  Like being concerned about terrorism, when bees and wasps have them beat hands (and stingers) down.

 

 

9 hours ago, proffrink said:

So long as you can prove some diligence/attempt at due process then you'll be fine

 

That's rather a bold statement, given the lack of case law.  There's no "reasonable belief" clause in VCRA.  The defence is to "show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the [allowed purposes]".

 

While I'd only sell to someone who could show some evidence that they had airsofted before, I don't believe that's strictly necessary, nor is it (up to and including having a UKARA number) necessarily sufficient.  What I would also do is get on record a statement that the RIF is being sold for the purpose of being used at a specific airsoft site.  Because that's closest to what the defence actually requires.

 

Cheery thought, maybe Zac Grierson will get to be the test case.

[proffrink]

As I've iterated before, we're less concerned about how the law is interpreted as we are public perception. Continuing to exercise caution (especially if new to selling) is frankly preferable in this regard especially when giving advice to those who've never sold before.

 

I don't need to tell you that following the spirit of the law usually infers intent - proving that you tried would be, in this case, at least some defence if your RIF ends up being used for something nefarious. I suppose my point is that we come dangerously close in many of these threads to suggesting negligence with a 'it'll probably be fine' attitude, and without a test of the law there's no problem with spending an extra 5 minutes asking for pictures/Instagram/Facebook stuff in the absence of something like a current UKARA number. The sort of person asking these sorts of questions isn't typically going to be someone who's played for a long time and knows the (admitted limited) ins and out of the VCRA amendment that we're subject to, and that's why I'd certainly make recommendations on the safe side and certainly not chastise people for being overly cautious if it's their first time selling.

 

In any case, we'll be making an official line on what's 'not enough' recommendation wise for making recommendations on selling (as per my announcement not too long ago). Likely we'll come down on the side of playing it safe as we would rather a Facebook group be the flashpoint for some idiot who's asked for advice and been told 'it'll probably be fine' and then sold a gun to - like you say - the police. AFUK is really high up on those search results and I have no doubt that if the government did want to get a feel for what airsofters are up to then likely they'll end up reading a couple of posts in this very section (amongst other, actually productive work that you'd hope they'd be doing).

[Rogerborg]

Fair enough, message received.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pass it on: the coup starts at midnight.  Death to despots, long live the People's Republic of AFUKia.