Need advise/answers for under 18 with two tone gun

[Tyner]

Hi, Im new to airsoft and have only played 2 games. I have really enjoyed my time playing my my bright orange m4 has kind of hindered my experience in the game, it has ruind my immersion and given away my position and allowed people to react to me peeking alot faster than if I had a rif, people have told me after games that they only saw me because of my gun. I am not yet old enough to get a ukara so how to I aid/solve my problem, thanks.

 

[Hangtight]

There are other approved colours that aren't quite so loud, so repainting is an option. Check with your site if you're OK wrapping the gun in camo tape for the game only.

As long as more than 50% of the gun is an approved colour you're OK, so perhaps painting parts that are difficult to conceal could be an option.

[Jedi_Master]

For the purpose of skirmishing you can temporarily cover the two-tone paint, i.e. using camouflage tape.  Putting camouflaged tape over a two-tone at a skirmish is permissible due to being a temporary modification purely for the game.  After the skirmish the tape is removed.  Sniper tape is a cheap way to cover the gun for a game day and is then easy to remove afterwards. 

[Tyner]

Ok thank you guys very much ill give it a go

 

[Jedi_Master]

6 minutes ago, Hangtight said:

As long as more than 50% of the gun is an approved colour you're OK,

 

It is more than 51%.

(pedantic mode)

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Jedi_Master said:

It is more than 51%.

(pedantic mode)

 

It is 51% or more.

(super pedantic mode)

 

I've alluded to it before, but wrapping in camo tape for a skirmish: by whom is that "permitted"?

 

It's an offence.  Skirmishing is the defence.  In practice, it won't be an issue.  But "permitted"?  That's pushing my pedant buttons.

 

OP, your age has got nothing to do with the offence of painting the gun, nor is UKARA necessary as a defence, and nor is it necessarily even sufficient as one.

 

The defence is that you're an airsoft skirmisher playing at insured skirmish sites.  The UKARA system (a retailer system, nothing to do with the government) considers that playing at least 3 games over at least 56 days qualifies you as one, or would do if you were 18.

 

What you choose to do with all of that information is up to you.

 

 

All that said, I do agree with the gist of what's been said above.  If you want to minimise the risk and maximise the benefit, then you could paint the gun down to 49% realistic / 51% bright (not necessarily orange) and then cover the bright parts with tape while on site.

[Tommikka]

Age wise, under 18 you cannot purchase, and as the UKARA is a scheme to verify the buyers ‘defence’ under the act on behalf of the seller to protect them from committing the potential crime of sale to a non skirmisher then that’s all irrelevant to an under 18 player

 

An under 18 player can have an IF or RIF gifted 

 

A two tone comes with the grey area of having an offence to repaint it to a ‘realistic’ colour / the potential allowance of ‘manufacturing’ a RIF by painting it - which requires the manufacturer / painter to be able to justify that - either having the defence or doing so for the purpose of someone with the defence.

 

Theres no legislation about a temporary cover of the two tone with tape etc, but doing so whilst in situ on an Airsoft site and then removing the tape before leaving falls within the valid purpose of skirmishing (unless someone brings a two tone and covers it on site purely for the purpose of waving around like a dick which wouldn’t be skirmishing)

Nothing in the legislation to explicitly cover that, but also nothing in the legislation to not cover that - the nearest would be ‘manufacture’ and if covering with tape is considered manufactured’ into a RIF and ‘dismantled’ afterwards then intent for the legal game of skirmishing is entirely defendable 

[Tommikka]

Camo form brand tape can be wrapped onto anything and self clings to itself.  If you peel it off carefully and wrap it back on the roll then you can keep reusing it

 

However CamoForm is really just cohesive bandage being sold to a new market.  If you shop around for VetWrap or horse bandages you can get the same type of thing for much less money and in a greater range of colours and patterns 

Make good friends or get a job with a local vet or horsey girls and it could be free

 

 

 

 

 

[Gepard]

10 hours ago, Jedi_Master said:

 

It is more than 51%.

(pedantic mode)

I always take a microscope to a two tone gun just to make sure.  ;-) 

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, Tommikka said:

A two tone comes with the grey area of having an offence to repaint it to a ‘realistic’ colour / the potential allowance of ‘manufacturing’ a RIF by painting it

 

Pedant mode fully engaged, I can't see any grey area (bright grey or otherwise).  'Manufacturing' is neither here nor there, as VRCA creates an offence at the instant anyone "modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm".  There's no ambiguity or wriggle room there.

 

Doing it on site is a pretty rock solid defence, but the followup question is: what obliges you to unmodify it afterwards?

 

By putting tape on then taking it off again, you're (de jure) creating an opportunity to commit a fresh new offence the next time you put it on.

 

De facto, I buy the pragmatic argument that transporting it as an IF, then RIFing it on site minimises your risk, given that any given copper is unlikely to be familiar with the letter of the law, but is likely to get less huffy about a day-glo gun than an Operator special.

 

 

9 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Nothing in the legislation to explicitly cover that, but also nothing in the legislation to not cover that - the nearest would be ‘manufacture’

 

Modifying.  Sorry to bang on about it, but 'manufacturing' keeps coming up in these threads and it's somewhat of a bright red herring since there's a crystal clear offence of modifying right in the legislation.

 

<Takes a hit from my inhaler>

[Hangtight]

You can argue that 'modifications' are only those actions that affect the substance of the IF, ie physical changes to the actual components of the gun. A temporary covering is therefore NOT a modification.

At the end of the day the law has been poorly considered and written, and in some cases leaves a lot more grey than black and white. You own an IF that falls fully within the law while being transported and stored/used at home. If you then apply a temporary covering while engaged in a skirmish at a licensed and insured site, you have not done anything outside the law.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Hangtight said:

You can argue that 'modifications' are only those actions that affect the substance of the IF

 

Not something that I'd like to rely on in the context of a law that explicitly deals with superficial appearance, i.e. section 38.

 

 

 

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Not something that I'd like to rely on in the context of a law that explicitly deals with superficial appearance, i.e. section 38.

 

 

 

Worrying about wrapping a two tone when playing doesn't really fit in with a previous statement that you purchased a painted two tone then removed the paint.

 

On 10/27/2017 at 10:56 AM, Rogerborg said:

Er, PatrolBase spray to order.  If they had it listed as two tone, it means they had the base gun in stock.

 

Well, we are where we are.  I removed the paint from a PatrolBase gun using isopropyl alcohol (aka isopropanol, IPA, rubbing alcohol).  Wet it, stiff bristled brush, off she comes.  Don't leave it to soak unless you have stubborn spots, and wash it down thoroughly with water right away when you're done.

There is no clear answer.  Sorry, but that's the way the legislation was written.

 

• It's an offence to modify an IF into a RIF.  Always, for everyone. There's no licence to do so.
• If it ever becomes an issue, you can argue that you have a defence.  The burden is on you to provide evidence of that.
• There's no guarantee that your defence will be accepted by the court, but then the chances of you requiring one are vanishingly small.  I'm not aware of any case law or reports of any airsofter being charged, let alone convicted, of modifying a IF into a RIF.

 

What you do is entirely down to your tolerance for risk.

 

For what it's worth, I de-Smurfed both my guns the moment I got them.  I didn't have a UKARA number and still don't.  I had (and have) sessions booked at the local CQB site, so that's my defence, the same one I'd use if I were stopped on the way there or back and asked what I was doing in possession of imitation firearms.

 

Up to you.

 

 

 

 

[Wo1f]

Has this ever actually been an issue? It’s not illegal to own a rif, just buy one, right? 

 

My brother is 15. I bought him a g36c rif. He hasn’t paid me for it, it was a gift. Nobody questions it if you’re not being a tool. Wave it around a shopping center and then sure, but an airsoft game.. does anyone really care if it’s painted or whatever? The fact they’re at a game to me is all the defence you need

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Worrying about wrapping a two tone when playing doesn't really fit in with a previous statement that you purchased a painted two tone then removed the paint.

 

Fair point, I didn't finish the thought.  Which was that I wouldn't like to rely on trying to argue that I hadn't committed the offence.

 

Fortunately we don't have to, since we can cheerfully admit to being filthy offenders (hello!) but we have a defence to offer.  That's why anyone who can show that they're an active airsofter isn't likely to have to worry about RIFing an IF, any more than we should fret over transporting one to and from a skirmish site.

[Albiscuit]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:33 PM, Wo1f said:

Has this ever actually been an issue? It’s not illegal to own a rif, just buy one, right? 

 

My brother is 15. I bought him a g36c rif. He hasn’t paid me for it, it was a gift. Nobody questions it if you’re not being a tool. Wave it around a shopping center and then sure, but an airsoft game.. does anyone really care if it’s painted or whatever? The fact they’re at a game to me is all the defence you need

 

This is pretty much it!!..

 

The law is about buying and modifying.

 

Once you have it there it little to no risk of anything coming back at you wherever you paint it, tape it or gold plate it! That being said the letter of the law (as ambiguous as it is) would count painting a two tone as modifying,but I ask the question, "who will know"? If, and this is a BIG if, you are challenged you could say it was a gift or bought by someone else. But its HIGHLY doubtful anyone would care or know any difference. Coppers are not going to be clued up on the law, we play the game and all have different interpretations  

 

And I have never seen or heard of anyone on site not being allowed to play with a RIF as they are under 18 or have no UKARA or have an 'illegal' RIF...

[Rogerborg]

I agree with almost all of the above, but:

 

Quote

you could say it was a gift or bought by someone else.

 

You could say that, but then you're weaving a web of lies that queers your own pitch by denying you the fairly straightforward defence of being an airsoft skirmisher.

 

If you're at the (very, very unlikely) point where someone who actually understands the law is questioning you, I'd urge you either stick to the plain truth (yes, modified, but, defence), or to not say a single word.  Zip. Zilch. Nada.

 

It's for the prosecution to show that you modified it, not for you to pre-emptively deny that with a lie.  If they show that, then you can adduce a defence.

 

We're talking about a fantasy situation here though.  If this sort of risk worries you, what are you doing having hard plastic BBs shot at your face?

[Albiscuit]

Not suggesting anyone lies to the coppers or to anyone for that matter, just pointing out how full of holes the whole arguments are with all of this.

 

As with most things its relative. Every week we have the same thread on here about the law and most of the time theres a slightly grey answer to get around the question. To be PC and not to be seen to bring the hobby into disrepute we quote the law and explain scenarios hoping the poster can either 1) work it out normally 2) put up with it until a UKARA can be sorted (usually the easiest and clearest solution for most to get their heads around) or 3) read between the lines and realise they should have just done some reading, realised how ambiguous it all is and just play the game hoping luck is on their side and be sensible

 

now im am not saying I have broken the law or know of any retailers who have but there are plenty of ways around almost most of the questions posted like this and I mostly just want to post JUST PAINT IT NO ONE WILL CARE!!!