Whats the best way to stop your goggles from Fogging?

[Esoterick]

My very first Airsoft game I was renting a full face mesh mask. At some point in the second game of the night a small broken particle of a BB got lodge right in front my one of my eyes. I noticed once I got back to the safe zone and what was concerning is that it was small enough to be pushed right through. I got lucky because it must have hit at an angle that stopped it heading towards my eye, but right there within 45 minutes of my first airsoft game I had seen all the evidence I needed that a mesh mask is a bit of a risky proposition.

 

I combined that knowledge with an eye consultant telling me about exploding eyes from BB impacts and well I have since spent a small fortune on high quality googles. They are going to fog and that is a given problem, but not seeing temporarily in the middle of a game is better than never seeing again.

 

Whilst I've never seen any reports of lasting eye damage from wearing mesh, it is arguably still a risk. More concerning is the very really prospect of getting a ricochet from shooting glasses hit your eye, or at best the surrounding area. After the blog post from the chap at Shadow Stalkers I saw a few marshals posting things along the lines of "oh yeah i've seen that happen a couple of times" which is pretty concerning to say the least. It could go into a whole debate about sites enforcing specific eyepro, but more to the point: it isn't as uncommon as you would think.

 

Personally I'd wear sealed glasses/goggles over mesh which i'd wear over shooting glasses. However if I ended up having real problems with fogging to the point it became dangerous, well then I'd definitely use mesh. Basically what Ian says is a good point, although when I read physics based discussions I feel like this:

[Ian_Gere]

My very first Airsoft game I was renting a full face mesh mask. At some point in the second game of the night a small broken particle of a BB got lodge right in front my one of my eyes. I noticed once I got back to the safe zone and what was concerning is that it was small enough to be pushed right through. I got lucky because it must have hit at an angle that stopped it heading towards my eye, but right there within 45 minutes of my first airsoft game I had seen all the evidence I needed that a mesh mask is a bit of a risky proposition.

 

I combined that knowledge with an eye consultant telling me about exploding eyes from BB impacts and well I have since spent a small fortune on high quality googles. They are going to fog and that is a given problem, but not seeing temporarily in the middle of a game is better than never seeing again.

As I said, emotion vs logic. If you feel that the risk of tripping over something because you can't see properly and being injured by falling onto something sharp is less important than the risk that 1/18th of a BB could hit your eye and somehow do so with sufficient force to hurt you (and think about how much energy the whole BB would have to have if 1/18th of it can hurt you), then that is your choice to make. My main point here is that shooting glasses and mountain biking eyepro are not suitable for airsoft.

[Ian_Gere]

 

Basically what Ian says is a good point, although when I read physics based discussions I feel like this:

I know what you mean, but if you think about it in more familiar terms, it's easier to understand. If 1 apple fell on your head Newton-stylee, you would bloody know about it; half an apple would impact less; a quarter even less, and 1/18th would be barely noticeable, if you were skirmishing or doing something else which required a bit of concentration.

[Richie Boyle]

i had to drop out of a game today due to fogging. i literally couldnt see a team mate 5 feet away from me so i borrowed a set of mesh goggles to try on the next game. i wasnt comfortable with them for reasons already stated in this thread plus visibility is seriously reduced compared to the wide angle revision lens

 

has anyone considered trying something like rain x? it is designed to prevent water sticking to a glass surface so presumably it would work on the materials used to make goggles

[BrightCandle]

The problem with fogging is the physics of the whole situation. You have a hot surface (your face) heating an area of air that is constrained due to the googles and moisture from your sweat producing a hot humid area separated by glass/plastic from a cooler less humid area. That will eventually produce condensation to appear no matter what you do. You can delay it with a spray/coating that dissuades the condensation from appearing, but that will only last so long before its overwhelmed. A variety of ways to do that including washing up liquid buffed into the lens or a variety of sold produces that basically all do the same thing.

 

About the only way to stop it is to exchange that hot humid air with the cooler air from outside the googles. ESS have some with an active fan for example and that is meant to be very effective. The problem of course is then you have a battery pack powering a fan attached to your head band and the fan isn't exactly quiet so there wont be any sneaking up using it. The Bolle lopro regulators are googles which have a strip that can be pushed exposing a number of small holes well above the eye line that aren't big enough for a BB (although fragments are certainly going to fit through them) and that is meant to be relatively effective at cooling the internal area as well.

 

The delta force guys still have this issue with their googles so there isn't a perfect solution yet. You have to trade some amount of safety to remove fogging in its entirety(or noise) and even then they still might fog. Mesh darkens the view and allows fragments through but it doesn't fog. Right now your only options are to pick which side of that safety/vision trade off you want.

[Lozart]

I use plastic lensed glasses/goggles because I struggle using mesh in the dark corridors of the Malls. Tried it, hated it, end of.

 

This weekend I used a pair of the new Bolle Cobra full seal safety glasses with their new Platinum anto fog coating and I must say it worked exceptionally well. As previously mentioned I sweat like Jimmy Saville in a childrens ward so fogging IS an issue. Normal people would fine them utterly fog free.

 

Having read Ian's very techy but informative post I thought to myself "I'll go check the numbers on the Bolle stuff, see if I can prove a point". So let's do the math(s):

 

Let's say you have a gun set right on the site limit for the Mall. 340FPS on a 0.2g BB. This gives you an energy of 1.07 joules

 

Bolle safety glasses have a maximum impact rating of "F" according to the EN standard of marking which is tested with a 0.86g steel ball at 45m/s. 45m/s is 147.64FPS which then gives you an energy of 0.86 joules.

 

So as you can see the glasses are insufficiently rated for even a fairly conservative site limit. 0.2 of a joule may not seem like much but if you were unlucky enough to be shot point blank in the face (which DOES happen in CQB) then your eye protection may fail.

 

Bolle GOGGLES on the other hand are rated "B" which is tested with a 0.86g steel ball at 120m/s (393.7 FPS) with an energy of 6.16 joules.

 

The moral of this particular tale then is wear goggles, not glasses (from Bolle at least) and make sure you WEAR THEM PROPERLY. You can have the best eye pro in the world but if your face protection doesn't let them fit properly you may as well not bother.

[Lozart]

ESS say their entire range is tested to the ANSI Z87.1-2010 standard. For glasses the high velocity impact test is very similar to the EN test in that it is a 6.35mm steel ball but tested at 150FPS. Assuming a marginally higher weight for the slightly larger ball (0.9g typical weight for a steel ball of this size) this still only achieves 0.94 joules.

 

Again, goggles have a higher rating (1/4" steel ball at 250FPS) at 2.6 joules but not as high as the EN rated Bolle Goggles.

 

As an aside the new standard for marking according to ANSI is that Z87 is NON impact rated Z87+ IS impact rated.

 

 

So it's worth checking the markings on everything!

[Lozart]

Had a dig through the details on Revision Sawflys as there seems to be quite a few ex-issue ones kicking about. Revision state that the Sawfly exceeds the ANSI and EN impact standard by a factor of 3 which gives at least 2.58 joules so it would seem that if you really want glasses not goggles then Sawflys are the way to go...

[BrightCandle]

This is about the best guide I have seen to the various standards for eye wear: http://www.airsoftnews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/EN-Safety-Standards-and-Protective-Eyewear.pdf

 

As far as I know all of the Bolle tactical glasses are V50 STANAG 2920 around 180m/s. For airsoft purposes that is around 12 joules, but it has a 50% chance of penetration. As far as I know that is about as safe as you can get with googles/glasses. Bolle's googles do stop a much higher speed BB under the same standard but I don't think its right to say the tactical glasses aren't good enough for airsoft games, they definitely are and one of the gold standards.

[Lozart]

This is about the best guide I have seen to the various standards for eye wear: http://www.airsoftnews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/EN-Safety-Standards-and-Protective-Eyewear.pdf

 

As far as I know all of the Bolle tactical glasses are V50 STANAG 2920 around 180m/s. For airsoft purposes that is around 12 joules, but it has a 50% chance of penetration. As far as I know that is about as safe as you can get with googles/glasses. Bolle's googles do stop a much higher speed BB under the same standard but I don't think its right to say the tactical glasses aren't good enough for airsoft games, they definitely are and one of the gold standards.

 

I was only looking at the Bolle safety range to be fair. Having looked again you are right, specifically the Tactical range are tested to STANAG 4296.

[BrightCandle]

 

I was only looking at the Bolle safety range to be fair. Having looked again you are right, specifically the Tactical range are tested to STANAG 4296.

Its a mix between 180 m/s STANAG 2920 ranging up to about 250 m/s STANAG 2920 and a few models that also do STANAG 4296. Having looked through the entire tactical range I think all of them are more than suitable for airsoft. However I would still prefer complete seal over glasses for the safety factor. They also do prescription carriers for a lot of their models as well so you can even get glasses fitted for them (which is why I initially bought them).

[cropzy]

Just purchased some cat crap as I used it yesterday and it had good results.

 

When it arrives and I use it more intensively I will let you guys know what it is like.

[Lozart]

Its a mix between 180 m/s STANAG 2920 ranging up to about 250 m/s STANAG 2920 and a few models that also do STANAG 4296. Having looked through the entire tactical range I think all of them are more than suitable for airsoft. However I would still prefer complete seal over glasses for the safety factor. They also do prescription carriers for a lot of their models as well so you can even get glasses fitted for them (which is why I initially bought them).

 

 

STANAG 4296 incorporates 2920. 2920 is the ballistic impact testing standard, 4296 is the overall standard for military eye wear and as such has a wider scope (such as fit and finish etc). So if it says STANAG 4296 you can rest assured it is tested to the same standard as STANAG 2920.

[remus]

ive been thinking, what if the lense was heated itself so that air didnt condense on it? something similar to the defog on rear car windows. course the heated thing infront of your eyes might be uncomfortable but at the same time, chances of this being workable?

[NickM]

Have had a little thinking about the glasses business and bbs getting under them, twice in 3 years I've ended up with BB's rolling around in my safety glasses when I used them. I'm thinking wire mesh goggles is my next move. Just need to find a reputable source.

[BrightCandle]

ive been thinking, what if the lense was heated itself so that air didnt condense on it? something similar to the defog on rear car windows. course the heated thing infront of your eyes might be uncomfortable but at the same time, chances of this being workable?

Heating the glass would absolutely work. Heating takes a lot of energy however, its no where near as cheap as running a fan. You only really need to equalise the glass to the temperature of the inside air however, which presumably is just a little over 40C. But then you reverse the problem, now on a cold winters day the condensation will appear on the outside. Its easier to clean off there but its also the dirtier side of the glass and hence a lot easier to form. I suspect the key challenge is power consumption, if there was one area it might get dragged down its 8+ hours of running heating wires.

[Ian_Gere]

Had a dig through the details on Revision Sawflys as there seems to be quite a few ex-issue ones kicking about. Revision state that the Sawfly exceeds the ANSI and EN impact standard by a factor of 3 which gives at least 2.58 joules so it would seem that if you really want glasses not goggles then Sawflys are the way to go...

Not at all. If you want to risk being hit in the eye by a ricochet, Sawflys are the way to go.

 

I doubt that any of the polycarbonate lensed offerings which people regularly use for airsoft would actually fail so badly that you would be shot in the eye, even those which are not rated for 2.32J (0.2g BB @500FPS) (which could happen if you were accidentally shot point blank in the face by a sniper... if, for eg, a sniper is concentrating on aiming down range and, like a penis, you step into the line of fire at just the wrong moment). Some products would crack, certainly, but stuff does tend to be over-engineered when a test which may result in a law suit has to be passed, and a crack does not equal a BB in the eye.

 

But that is not the point. The point is that you could fit more than 1 BB side by side between the edges of Sawflys and most people's faces. We have 2 confirmed instances of BB's hitting people in the eye after bouncing off 1/2 face masks and getting between correctly worn eyepro (for those models) and the face, but that is not the only way a BB could approach your eye from below. If you look up then the bottom edge of your eyepro faces forward... how about when you are lying down? And BB's can ricochet off other things than masks.

[Ian_Gere]

If I was a site owner, or if I become involved in promoting an event, I would ban non-seal glasses.

[BrightCandle]

If I was a site owner, or if I become involved in promoting an event, I would ban non-seal glasses.

Its a personal choice of the amount of risk taken, we are after all adults. But I think anyone that cares about keeping their sight should definitely go full coverage googles. Even mesh IMO is a bit of a risky proposition.

[Ian_Gere]

Indeed we are adults, but i'm not at all convinced that everyone who wears shooting glasses to a skirmish is making an informed decision. People are extremely poor at risk assessment and I believe that it is fair enough to require them to abide by restrictions which may make no 'sense' to them in order that their recklessness does not result in accidents which reflect badly on our hobby/sport. We do not have discussions concerning responsibility when a site declare some area out of bounds over safety concerns.

 

I say 'sense' because risk assessment is something which people do emotionally and, unless they are used to trusting logic over feelings, demonstrable scientific fact has little, if any, impact on what a given person will consider safe at a given time. Consider your own reluctance over mesh... I trust you have at the very minimum been taught basic 'science'? You know that Force = Mass x Velocity / you also know that something which looks say 1/10th the size of a larger cousin actually has 1/100th the volume in 3 dimensions / you know how an equation works... so what's the problem? It just doesn't feel right...

 

But I'll bet that you could put a diagram of a person wearing glasses with their head tipped back and a big red arrow going from in front of them, below the glasses, to the eye, on a sign right by the exit from the safe zone and people would still pass by wearing shooting glasses. Why? Because they're for shooting, so they must be safe...

[Lozart]

Not at all. If you want to risk being hit in the eye by a ricochet, Sawflys are the way to go.

 

.

Which is why I said "if you really want glasses and not goggles" as they appear to have at least the correct impact resistance. The main drive of the point I was replying to was one of impact resistance, not whether or not you could get a ricochet between them and your face.

 

Full seal eyewear incorrectly worn is no safer then non sealing eye wear correctly worn in that respect and I've seen plenty of people wearing goggles that are being displaced by their face masks.

[BrightCandle]

Its all bad choices really. Glasses have gaps and hence you could loose an eye, googles fog and you need to do a lot to stop it being a problem none of which is cheap or that good and mesh is dark and lets fragments through to your eyes and you can have your eyesight damaged using them. Personally I am surprised anyone chooses glasses or mesh but they do. Personally I don't think that trade off makes any sense, I want maximum protection for my eyeballs, airsoft is a hobby and if I can't push up because of fog I'll just sit in cover and maybe get shot until it resolves. I don't care that much about winning.

 

One of the reasons I have gone for the Bolle raiders is that they are smaller. They look like glasses but they are fully sealed. They go around the TMC lower mesh mask without impact so neither the mask nor the glasses are in the wrong place.

[Ian_Gere]

mesh is dark and lets fragments through to your eyes and you can have your eyesight damaged using them

No you cannot. Absolutely. Indubitably. Under no circumstances. Never.

 

It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. If a fragment of BB could penetrate mesh with enough force to harm your eyeball, then physics does not work. Force = Mass x Velocity. End of.

[Lozart]

No you cannot. Absolutely. Indubitably. Under no circumstances. Never.

 

It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. If a fragment of BB could penetrate mesh with enough force to harm your eyeball, then physics does not work. Force = Mass x Velocity. End of.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to deal in absolutes there Ian, just because a fragment is so small that it lacks any significant force does not mean that it can't damage your eye. Granted we're not talking about having your eye shot out here, but a piece of BB small enough to get through your mesh is still significant in terms of abrasion and cutting the surface of the eye.

[Lozart]

Also - I'm wondering if any of the mesh eye protection available is ever actually submitted to any form of standardised testing? Is any of it EN or ANSI marked? Or is it all just "I shot at some a bunch of times and it was fine"? Serious question by the way.