Longshot Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think people know the technicalities, it's just often easier to word it otherwise. If someone says you must have 'UKARA registration' you know what they mean, right? It's just semantics. That's the problem, I really don't think that the vast majority of people involved in airsoft do know the technicalities at all. After all, nobody 'MUST have UKARA registration' for anything. If anybody tells you that when you try to buy something from them then they're either misinformed about the legal situation or they're effectively just being too lazy or busy (which is what most retailers would argue - hence the establishing of UKARA) to seek another way to establish a defence for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typefish Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Another thing that wound me up about the UKARA and the way it was implemented by sites was that you could play three games at one site and as happened to me, they made me come back a 4th time to put my paperwork through and then I had to wait the best part of a week for them to process this. While I accepted the three games, I thought it was a bit cheeky to force me to pay for a 4th game there and when you are keen to get going with your own RIF, every days delay seems like a week. The new schemes being proposed should stop this, although there is nothing to stop the site dragging their heels clicking on the appropriate box in the database. I laughed when I saw this on the Facebook page. The retailer thing is odd, but they have registered as a private company limited by guarantee for the BAC. You can check this on the Companies House website. I'm led to believe that type of company is used for non profit companies but it's not something I know a lot about. Yes, pretty much the only other structure you can have for non-profits in the UK is charitable status, and no way does BAC (or any other list) match that criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Qlimax Posted February 17, 2014 Supporters Share Posted February 17, 2014 Looking at what's been said and the website etc I'd rather pay a site once a year for my UKARA least I know it stands and it's honest. Also UKARA mainly stands with UKARA registered businesses as there's a non UKARA registered retailer I know of who accepts basically anything to buy RIF's from them. All they check is your age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Qlimax Posted February 17, 2014 Supporters Share Posted February 17, 2014 Just had a look at the registration for this as well and think it's a little weird asking for an actual photo of you odd and I already have UKARA but reading this they want to check and confirm with a site something I already hold which is my valid defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I joined to give it a try and the airsoft site has just confirmed my 3 entries to say that Ive played there when I say I did. Thats in less than 24 hours and I now have a valid defence from BAC. I have asked them quite a few questions as I wanted to satisfy myself that their concept had been thought through properly. I believe the photo is for if you go into a shop in person. They can tie up your photo ID with the database entry. It may even help sites to remember you when you claim you played there last week ? cant see any harm in it. My main concern now is that for me to move from a site membership card/UKARA, I would like a photo ID membership card confirming that I am a bona-fide airsofter. BAC's answer is print out your entry on their database and carry it with you but I don't think they are doing as much as they could in this regard. Just had a look at the registration for this as well and think it's a little weird asking for an actual photo of you odd and I already have UKARA but reading this they want to check and confirm with a site something I already hold which is my valid defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 See post #7 onwards http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/19836-vcra-2006-no-mention-of-airsofting/ Post script on the photo ID subject as a defence against being stopped by police is that they will try and accommodate it in the next software release, possibly on a print it out for free or get an optional laminated card basis. Will see if it comes good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Running a poll on a Facebook airsoft group with over 1000 members, its transpiring that around 70% or more of players seem to currently pay nothing for their UKARA membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longshot Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 ^ I think this is true, but it also depends on what you consider as 'paying for your UKARA membership.' The fact is that 0% of people actually pay to be on the UKARA database as UKARA don't charge for it, so what else are people paying for? Lots of people talk about their 'UKARA number,' but there's no such thing. You have a site membership number that's kept on the UKARA database; UKARA don't actually issue a number. So to be on the database most people generally need to pay for a site membership to get a number first, therefore I'd suggest that actually more than 70% of people have probably paid something to get onto the database. The biggest issue is when you've already paid for your membership and then your unscrupulous site charges you extra to send your number off to UKARA. It would be a shame (but not a surprise) if the 30% who say that they have 'paid for UKARA membership' mean that they've had to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted February 18, 2014 Supporters Share Posted February 18, 2014 Longshot, some sites actually do charge a fee to stamp your form and send it off. Whilst also paying people for membership for other reasons. So the people who say they've paid, will be saying that because they have actually paid to have their details sent from their site, to a retailer, in order to get on the database. Whilst the other 70% will be saying that they got their UKARA membership as part of their site membership fee, or for free without being a site member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The point I guess Im making is that we are comparing the merits of UKARA Vs LUTHER Vs BAC. The latter two are expecting players to finance the records scheme which will primarily be used for retailers to maintain a defence. If such a high proportion of players currently have UKARA registration which costs them nothing, it is highly unlikely they will be prepared to finance new alternative schemes. Fixed costs over a reduced number of clients means higher prices for those participating per unit. £5 and 6.99 might be a lot more ? Has anybody done any proper market research ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longshot Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Sorry Ed, my response wasn't very clear. I just meant that if everyone who responded was definitely clear about what 'paying for your UKARA' meant, and the response was still that 30% said they had paid for theirs, that's a really sad state of affairs (and worse than I thought it was). It also bodes well for your Luther if they can sort this out through automatic updating of attendance records (though it could also mean you meet some opposition from the third of sites out there who seem to be making money from the UKARA system in its current format). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Actually, no I have been quite clear to distinguish hidden admin charges in inclusive memberships from free meaning free. Current score is only 20% are paying. 80% in the poll are getting it done completely free by either doing it themselves or sites doing it for them as a favour. I read into that that the potential market for whatever scheme you go with is 20% of airsofters over 18 and this market will be divided in equally between the schemes available to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_awol Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 If a site is currently scamming it's members by asking for an 'admin fee' to stamp forms, update UKARA, etc then what is to stop them from doing the same under either of these superfluous new systems (which, as they cost money themselves, means the player will pay twice)? Fortunately my site don't indulge in any such shenanigans. You play, they get their money for that, they send your form off and then they renew you as necessary. Hardly a chore and anyone who charges for that service doesn't deserve the customers they are fortunate to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Interestingly, I paid £10 to get a site membership which only really covers them handling the processing of my UKARA application and the provision of a laminated card with the UKARA number on it. OK they sent everything off for me. I willingly paid for that service thinking that was the way it was normally done everywhere. Now I have just registered with the BAC and ironically named the same site on my entries there as three games. The same site confirmed this by clicking on the relevant links on their page, within 24 hours. So when the BAC scheme goes live and I pay my £6.99, then I will get the same service for £3.01 less and I can use any site I play at, to keep the defence live, not just the one who instigated the application or who I need to stamp a new form. It saves me having to take pieces of paper to sites for signature ever again. Incidentally, the other site I sometimes play at, do the UKARA application as part of a £25 per annum membership which has other benefits as well. As with all these things, you play at the sites you play at for different reasons. How they handle UKARA is not usually a direct influence on that decision. If you are lucky enough to find one that does it free, thats great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 The other thing I would say is that apart from the potential market being only 20%, the large retailers can still block these schemes if they wish. If the large retailers want to support UKARA, all they have to do is to refuse to sign up for schemes like BAC and Project Luther and any others that spring up. Whats the point of a player being a member if they cant use the defence to buy any RIF from their preferred retailer ? I don't understand the retailer politics except that I know some had an issue with UKARA. It will be interesting to see if PAS, Fire Support, Airsoft World, LWA, Action Hobbies, Zero etc sign in to the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters M_P Posted February 19, 2014 Supporters Share Posted February 19, 2014 I imagine the smaller retailers will jump at the opportunity, the bigger ones are likely to be slower. However if enough people ended up with back or P:L then the larger ones would be daft not to accept it, it would cost them nothing and they'd risk potentially missing out on sales. I think 20% (though i believe more would be likely to sign up) of the airsofters in the UK is a large enough number to need to accept it, that could be 20% of sales. I do have my doubts as to whether there's room for both new systems though. I'd expect one to take over enough people for them not to need to bother with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I suspect its more complicated than that. Hypothetically, if the bigger retailers wanted to prevent smaller retailers coming online to undercut them and there is already a yearly fee with UKARA to deter them, all they need to do is not sign up to the alternative schemes. The new schemes wont be able to take off and will founder, leaving just UKARA, no smaller competitors and a status quo. I would query if 20% of the nations airsofters is enough to support three scheme infrastructures. Accepting the two newcomers could well mean the end of UKARA. Would the retailers want their defence to be in the hands of the players ? There is already talk of retailers sitting on the panel at BAC ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typefish Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I suspect its more complicated than that. Hypothetically, if the bigger retailers wanted to prevent smaller retailers coming online to undercut them and there is already a yearly fee with UKARA to deter them, all they need to do is not sign up to the alternative schemes. The new schemes wont be able to take off and will founder, leaving just UKARA, no smaller competitors and a status quo. I would query if 20% of the nations airsofters is enough to support three scheme infrastructures. Accepting the two newcomers could well mean the end of UKARA. Would the retailers want their defence to be in the hands of the players ? There is already talk of retailers sitting on the panel at BAC ! Well, considering how the people who founded the BAC are themselves retailers (in the 'small man' sense), I would be surprised if there weren't any retailers sitting on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well in fairness to them, they are creating a panel of interested parties including players and sites. The magic question is which retailers will sit on the panel - very political. I am already seeing signs of UKARA retailers sitting on the fence regarding alternative schemes. Its a bit chicken and egg. If the retailers say we will see i.e depends on how many of our customers have a particular scheme as their only defence and it might affect our sales. The players, those that are prepared to pay for this, are saying well it depends on how many retailers sign up, otherwise its pointless. There are two parts to this: 1. Constructing a suitable scheme 2. Getting people to adopt it. Saying its free for sites and retailers isn't all you have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 player registration going active on March 1st. Quite a few retailers and sites seem to have signed up. I know my main local site has and the retailer where I bought my last RIF has confirmed to me they will accept BAC next time I want to order from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 It seems that the other two sites where I play have now signed up and BAC are issuing photo ID cards so thats all my boxes ticked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Subscription has now opened today for players and they have published a list of participating sites on their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longshot Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I am loving your dedication to keeping us informed about what's going on with the BAC Baz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz JJ Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You're most welcome. I am loving your dedication to keeping us informed about what's going on with the BAC Baz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters M_P Posted March 1, 2014 Supporters Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hmmm. No big retailer sites have joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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