Chrono check points before walk on

[NateChrony]

(Firstly apologies for a n00b q - there seems to be a good amount of variance on how this is done depending on the field/event)

 

At a event like the National Airsoft Festival - or maybe "more stricter" fields, there's a requirement to Chrono before you get onto the field.

• Am I correct that it would be ideal that everyone chrono's every time before walk on, but typically its not done due to efficiency?

 

Whats the procedure look like? some vids of a station at live event would be good

• How many stations are there at an event? Is there a rough number per attendee that would be ideal?
• Most appear to supply bbs to check with, typically 0.2g
• It would be good to be able to specify BB weight quickly? Joule creep etc (most fields are moving to this instead of 0.2 BB tests?)
• You take multiple (3?) shots & get an average reading, or is 1 enough?
• If its below the velocity for that specific class then you pass

 

 

[BigStew]

There is no set standard every site/event does it differently. There really should be a set standard though. 

[Shamal]

8 hours ago, NateChrony said:

(Firstly apologies for a n00b q - there seems to be a good amount of variance on how this is done depending on the field/event)

 

At a event like the National Airsoft Festival - or maybe "more stricter" fields, there's a requirement to Chrono before you get onto the field.

• Am I correct that it would be ideal that everyone chrono's every time before walk on, but typically its not done due to efficiency?

 

Whats the procedure look like? some vids of a station at live event would be good

• How many stations are there at an event? Is there a rough number per attendee that would be ideal?
• Most appear to supply bbs to check with, typically 0.2g
• It would be good to be able to specify BB weight quickly? Joule creep etc (most fields are moving to this instead of 0.2 BB tests?)
• You take multiple (3?) shots & get an average reading, or is 1 enough?
• If its below the velocity for that specific class then you pass

 

 

What do you mean by "more stricter fields"

[Tommikka]

8 hours ago, NateChrony said:

 

 

At a event like the National Airsoft Festival - or maybe "more stricter" fields, there's a requirement to Chrono before you get onto the field.

Every site should be chronographing

 

Anywhere that isn’t projects a giant red flag about their ability to run a business or game 

[Tommikka]

8 hours ago, NateChrony said:

 

• Am I correct that it would be ideal that everyone chrono's every time before walk on, but typically its not done due to efficiency?

 

 

This is a nice simple solution, it requires a staffed  station at the entrance (which is fairly easy at the start of a game, but less so during a game as this removes a potential Marshall from being on the field)

 

Its nice and simple as it means the gun going onto the field has been checked  (provided they also notice holstered pistols etc) 

But players must be turned away for failures, then you end up with delays due to players needing to adjust ….

 

If they attempt to adjust at the point of chrono then the queue is held up, if they go away and come back they might still need to adjust down or have gone down too far and want to adjust back up 

Ideally you have official observed chronos and spare chronos for adjusting and for before queuing to the official check 

 

………..

 

 

Pre game chrono involves opening up the chrono area at a set time, perhaps just chronos on tables as early as possible followed by official checks from specified times 

 

……

 

Official approved checks need to be marked.

One way is to hand out arm bands/arm tape during chrono - which works if it is one gun per person, but what about those with pistols or an armoury brought for the day? Or what about teams that bring out a handful of guns to chrono for the others ?

 

(((( Or what about a faction leader who cannot get a single gun to chronograph today but needs an armband to get onto the game field ????  That happened to me, leading the first game with grenades and subsequent games with dual pistols once team mates sorted them for me)))) 

 

Tagging the gun deals with that, such as a zip tie, electrical tape etc

(Or tag gun and tag the player)

In an ideal world tag guns through a tournament lock to prevent adjustment, but in reality it’s probably tape around the barrel or zip tie on a trigger guard

 

 

 

Supplement pre game chronos with in game random (and targeted) marshal chrono checks using handhelds

[Tommikka]

Here are a couple of videos giving examples of a sites arrival talkthrough and a chrono check example

 

The latter is paintball but the general process is the same

 

Every site and event will have their own processes and rules 

 

 

Airsoft booking in, chrono etc talk through 

 

https://youtu.be/Ab9Z8_YW3OM?feature=shared

 

 

Paintball chorno check

 

https://youtu.be/zyZabatE9ME?si=OibofheXng5P1VvA

 

 

 

 

[NateChrony]

Thanks heaps Tommikka...

 

So really - just lots & lots of Chrono's.

Before walk on, or during registration or "official check" - there is an official with a chrono to verify, then the player may need another one to dial in some settings on the side.

 

Having someone walk the line with a chrono may also help speed things up?

 

Is it 3 shot average - or will 1 shot do?

How consistent are guns generally?

Is it also different speeds per class - close/sniper etc?

 

 

[Rogerborg]

It really does vary wildly.  Large events are rarer than typical game days.

 

Generally speaking, everybody should have their guns chronoed once in the morning before playing.  Typically there will be a set time for everyone to chrono, followed by a safety briefing before the first game, then (regardless of what the site has said about it) late arrivals will get chronoed and hold everybody up before the game starts.

 

 

12 hours ago, NateChrony said:

• How many stations are there at an event? Is there a rough number per attendee that would be ideal?

 

At a typical game day with 30 - 100 people, you'll be lucky to see two chronos.  They're typically cheap Xcortechs, knock offs, clones, or feature equivalents of them.

 

 

I've never seen sites check their chronos against each other, so if they're using multiples, it's a lottery which one you'll get.  I bring my own (cheap, generic) chrono, check myself before the site does it, and then compare my reading to theirs to self-calibrate against that specific site. Sadly, I take it a lot more seriously than most sites really do.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, NateChrony said:

• Most appear to supply bbs to check with, typically 0.2g

 

Some do, some don't.  CQB sites tend towards it, as they're more likely to have a weight limit, typically 0.25g, so feeding 0.2g isn't too far off.  I've seen CQB sites keep M4 mags with 0.2g BBs to hand, as many players use M4 style guns that will take them.  Otherwise it's a case of the site putting BBs into the mag (often having to eject some first because players don't listen worth a damn).

 

However, feeding 0.2g into guns tuned for 0.28g+ isn't particularly useful.  You mention "Joule creep", so I take it you're aware that some (not all) airsoft guns, particularly full cylinder / long barrel guns like DMR and snipers, and gas guns, can impart significantly higher energy to heavier BBs as they linger in the barrel longer than a 0.2g would.

 

The sites where I play now all just ask us what weight of BB we have loaded, which is fraught with issues, as players can get it wrong, sometimes genuinely - a fair number of people use borrowed guns and just get handed mags - and sometimes maliciously.

 

 

12 hours ago, NateChrony said:

• It would be good to be able to specify BB weight quickly? Joule creep etc (most fields are moving to this instead of 0.2 BB tests?)

 

The variety of BB weights in use is somewhat of an issue.  People can and do show up with 0.2g, 0.23g, 0.25g, 0.28g, 0.3g, 0.32g, 0.36g, 0.4g, 0.44g, 0.45g, and others, more than a typical Xcortech knock-off can be pre-set to calculate for.  Some sites will keep an fps / weight / Joules chart handy, some will re-program the chrono, some will shrug and guesstimate what the Joule figure might be.

 

 

12 hours ago, NateChrony said:

• You take multiple (3?) shots & get an average reading, or is 1 enough?

 

Typically 3, and the highest matters.  Although if you're fractionally over, some marshals will ask you to put more through and see if it was a freak.  If you're slightly over, they might suggest running some mags through as springs can soften slightly as they warm up.

 

There are different energy limits for different types of gun.  Typically these are:

 

Automatic guns, or anything that you want to use up close without a minimum engagement distance: 1.13J - 1.2J (depending on the site)

 

DMRs locked to semi and which have a minimum engagement distance and a restriction on rate of fire (notionally, it's rarely enforced): anywhere between 1.5J and 2.3J, with 1.88J being fairly typical.

 

Bolt action snipers, with a minimum engagement distance: 2.3J - 2.32J

 

Legally speaking, the limits on what define an airsoft gun are 2.5J for single shot guns, and 1.3J for anything auto-capable.  So sites aim to come in comfortable below those.

 

There are regular issues with people shooting on the piss through the sensor, or gas guns throwing it off and needing to be shot from further back, or having to take a few shots to vent excess gas, or tri-shot shotguns producing wild readings.  A lot of it is muddling through, and sites don't really want to be telling players that they can't use a gun, or play at all.

 

 

12 hours ago, NateChrony said:

• If its below the velocity for that specific class then you pass

 

Yes, and typically sites will put a coloured cable tie somewhere on the gun to indicate that it's passed. This is itself open to abuse as cheaters can just bring a bag of ties, and guns tend to accumulate a rainbow of tags which are sometimes - but not always - snipped off.

 

To ameliorate that problem, I've seen sites put the tie on, but not clip off the excess until everyone is walking on to the first game.  One of my local sites is now recording the figures against your name on the sign-in sheet, but that has another issue in that it doesn't indicate which gun has been chronoed.  I tend to bring three or more as spares or for variety, and sites are inconsistent on whether green gas pistols should be chronoed - even though there are some that shoot hot.  CO2 pistols generally should be chronoed, but as side-arms tend not to get tagged, it's trivial to not bother.

 

 

Now, with all of the above said, my personal position is that pre-game chrono as described above is a complete waste of time for the purposes of catching malicious and dangerous players, because it's so trivial to game or avoid it.  What it does is to let honest players know that they're hot, so they can do something about it before they play.  But honest players aren't the big risk.

 

The only way to catch a hot gun in game is to catch it in game, using site BBs of a known weight.  Despite what sites may claim, this very rarely happens.  I've only been chronoed in-game once, and was just asked what weight of BB I was using.  I'd like to see it happen a lot more.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

Thanks heaps Tommikka...

My world is paintball, both as player and organiser, and my airsoft experience is as an organiser but alongside those experienced in airsoft.

So I have always left the airsoft rules and knowledge of airsoft tricks to

others

 

 

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

 

So really - just lots & lots of Chrono's.

Lots of chronos is a real benefit ( but also being aware that different models and even individual chronos can give different results)

 

Back when I began playing scenario events they would be run by a local team at a local site, you would have approx 100 players getting chrono checked at one ‘big red’ chrono.

After my first scenario game I bought my own handheld

(little yellow radarchron),

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sports-Sensors-Hand-Radar-Chronograph/dp/B001AI0NE4

 

later upgrading to the grey (x-radar)

https://www.justpaintball.co.uk/products/x-radr-chronograph-and-bps-counter
 

and subsequently moving onto a team virtue clock 

https://www.bzpaintball.co.uk/virtue-clock-iii-chrono-black

 

We partner with sites for our events so would make use of site staff and site chronos, but the Clock was a real bonus for in game quick checks, and as part of event organiser collaboration many of us will lend out chronos to each other 

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

Before walk on, or during registration or "official check" - there is an official with a chrono to verify, then the player may need another one to dial in some settings on the side.

 

Having someone walk the line with a chrono may also help speed things up?

 

I wouldn’t add someone going down the queue with a chrono, as that person could be at the front of the queue doing official chrono checks

But I would allow for any spare chronos to be on tables available for people to check and adjust 

Even better is to minimise the chances of having a queue by opening chrono checks as early as possible so people are checking and getting tagged instead of just socialising then suddenly generating a queue

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

 

Is it 3 shot average - or will 1 shot do?

I’d want a minimum of 3 shots, but not averaging - taking the maximum 

If one was over then making a judgement call - eg a couple more shots to check the rest are below.

But if the first shot is excessive followed by lower velocities then the gun might have a first shot peak which is hot, so we want that reduced 

 

 

I prefer scenario games, generally the woods but especially interesting places

Back in the day the rules would vary between events even between two standard woods games. Some players would want to crank up to the maximum per event, I’d generally be happy that it’s within the limit and goes in the general

direction I’m pointing, so if it was 10fps below I’d be happy rather than tweaking for the extra fps and a couple of inches of range

 

I’ve played a couple of competitive tournaments, so then would pre check to as close as I could consistently get to maximum.

At the first round on the way in I was chronoed over (If I recall correctly that was one of the shots, which could have been a rogue shot or an inconsistency between practice chrono and Marshal chrono) - and informed that my gun was banned for the day.  This was resolved by reaching out of the net for the spare (ready for that exact reason) and using that for the rest of the day

 

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

How consistent are guns generally?

 

It all depends, there are many factors that impact on consistency.

A well tuned gun rather than just buying lots of ‘upgrades’ will aid consistency 

Small balls bouncing around a wide bore will be less consistent than a good fit / small cushion of air

Gas powered guns in changeable weather will vary, or at least change velocity from a cold morning to a sunny afternoon

1 hour ago, NateChrony said:

 

 

 

 

Is it also different speeds per class - close/sniper etc?

 

 

These are dependant on rules, and in airsoft it’s more likely that there will be rules for weapon/role classes such as sniper, general player, single shot etc

[Galvatron]

I would advise focusing on the muzzle energy instead of the speed. That way, you only need to concern yourself with whether your BB of a given weight is chrono tested within the joule limit examples Rogerborg gave. Depending on the site, an AEG will have an energy limit around the 1.13J mark regardless of your pellet being 0.2g, 0.5g or anything in betweeen.

Edited July 22 by Galvatron