Please help me with my warhead motor

[steverebo]

Ok I'm at my wits end after lots of trial and error I have worked out that my warhead base 27k motor is the cause of all my pain.

 

When I install the warhead motor in my gun the fps is all over the place with lows of 280 and highs of 330 on .25 but when I put my old ifrit motor in my fps is stable and with 5fps.

 

I am using 13:1 gears no short stroking with a titan advanced mofset on an 11.1v 30c battery.

 

I'm at the point now that if I can't get this working I will just sell it 

[Rogerborg]

Any sound or sign of it pre-engaging and chewing the rack or sector gear?

 

Have you fitted a delayer chip?  I know that's for feeding issues, I'm just trying to visualise how more spin can equal less spring.

[steverebo]

Nope no signs of pre engagement I initially tried this with the same gears but short stroked by 3 teeth and my first thought was ot didn't like the short stroking so I grabbed a new set of gears and just changed out the sector gear issue still persists.

 

I do have a delayer chip installed I have tried it with and without with the same result 

[Adolf Hamster]

this in semi or auto?

 

27k+13:1+11.1v does sound like it's sailin for pme territory...

 

pme would usually only manifest in auto so unless it's double tapping in semi you shouldn't be getting issues between motors.

 

34 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

I'm just trying to visualise how more spin can equal less spring.

 

the only other issue aside from pme is if the tappet plate just ain't keeping up with the rest of the box, ie the gun's firing before the plate has time to close and losing air.

 

usually an auto thing but given the warheads pickup rate i suppose it ain't out of the question for it to happen in semi.

[Skara]

Warhead motors fuck up the gearbox timing.

I've had the same experience with both my motors, I say it's due to the sheer inertia of the system.

 

If you have a delayer, remove it, also try shaving a couple of millimetres off the tappet plate fin, and while you're there check if removing two teeth off the sector (one pickup, one release) would give more time to the nozzle to seal.

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Skara said:

If you have a delayer, remove it, also try shaving a couple of millimetres off the tappet plate fin

 

i can see where you're going with shaving down the tappet, personally i'd be looking more towards increasing the tension on the tappet, take a couple of coils off its spring kinda thing.

 

issue with shaving down the tappet is going too far and goodbye feeding.

 

1 hour ago, Skara said:

while you're there check if removing two teeth off the sector (one pickup, one release) would give more time to the nozzle to seal.

 

short-stroking won't really help the nozzle timing, especially teeth off the release side as it'll be releasing the piston even earlier relative to when the tappet is released. hence i tend to lean more towards taking teeth from the pickup side.

 

although granted it will help if the problem is pme rather than tappet timing.

[Skara]

27 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

short-stroking won't really help the nozzle timing, especially teeth off the release side as it'll be releasing the piston even earlier relative to when the tappet is released. hence i tend to lean more towards taking teeth from the pickup side.

True, I generally only remove teeth from the pickup side too, but in the case of my AK I was loosing air because the tappet plate was being pulled before the piston could impact the cylinder head (fucker does 24 RPS on a 7.4), my possible solution to this was to cut down a release tooth on the sector (along with the two pickup teeth I had removed already), didn't loose any volume as the piston still travels past the whole port on the cylinder, in addition to that I installed a delayer that is very, very thin on the pickup side and modified the tappet plate fin by shortening it (releases early) and removing some material from the pickup point (picks up later).

 

A whole bunch of work to, hopefully, get it to feed with high caps and get to shoot within my 1J limit as it was doing 1.1 on a M90 (pretty silly air seal)

[Adolf Hamster]

10 minutes ago, Skara said:

very thin on the pickup side and modified the tappet plate fin by shortening it (releases early) and removing some material from the pickup point (picks up later).

 

ahh, sorry my derp, i thought you were meaning taking from the face of the fin......

 

yes taking from the bottom of the fin same way the dsg tappet plates are would help.

[ak2m4]

Do you have a set of vanilla 16:1 or 18:1 you could just swop out?

[Skara]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

ahh, sorry my derp, i thought you were meaning taking from the face of the fin......

No derp, it's what I did, reshaped the face of the fin and now it is half a millimetre less prominent and does more of a curve rather than two separate steps, just to gain that fraction of a second.

And cut off a section from the bottom to allow for an earlier release.

 

Essentially I delayed the nozzle movement backwards and anticipated the piston release. If it doesn't work for me, no biggie, I have stocked quite a few tappet plates just in case I mess up

 

Back to the OP: as I said the warhead motor spins so fast it causes all sorts of issues if a gun is not properly tuned.

[steverebo]

Ok the plot thickens, I put the warhead in my m4 with its 18:1 gears and perun mofset and found it was perfect so I looked at my mofset realised my preun had some quiet heavy active breaking on. I put the warhead back in my arp9 and tur Ed on 100% active breaking and bingo my fos was bang on but with a caviet the warhead motor seems to fire a few shots then on the next shot it just moves a tiny bit enough to pull the nozzle back but doesn't cycle and then the next shot is fine and it continues doing this at random so I began dropping the active breaking pwm level down 20% at a time and no matter what level it does it 

Edited June 10, 2022 by steverebo

[Adolf Hamster]

11 minutes ago, steverebo said:

the warhead motor seems to fire a few shots then on the next shot it just moves a tiny bit enough to pull the nozzle back but doesn't cycle and then the next shot is fine and it continues doing this at random so I began dropping the active breaking pwm level down 20% at a time and no matter what level it does it 

 

That sounds like precocking timing to me.

 

Wouldnt be surprising, swapping motors is gonna mean the system runs different so you gotta dial in the settings for a specific motor/gear/stroke/spring combo.

 

Eg if it overruns by 20ms that might be bang on for a motor that takes 40ms to cycle from a standing start but swap to a motor that takes 35ms and it'll be different.

[steverebo]

FIXED IT!!!!!!!!

 

so my stupid titan's battery protection and overdischarge protection was not playing nice with my warhead (i was unaware but warhead motors have thier own battery protection) so now with active breaking at 100% my nozzle remains in the released position after every shot meaning the seal intact and my fps stays within a 5fps ish variance.

 

Now my final issue to solve is the 50fps drop when I go to full auto 

Edited June 10, 2022 by steverebo

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, steverebo said:

Now my final issue to solve is the 50fps drop when I go to full auto 

 

7.4v.....

[steverebo]

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

7.4v.....

But all my batteries are 11.1v 30c

 

There must be another way

[Skara]

1 hour ago, steverebo said:

There must be another way

Yes there is, you need to cut down the tappet plate so its release is anticipated.

Unfortunately, how much you cut is mostly trial and error unless you buy a TopMax (small italian company) tappet plate which has guide cuts for various lengths (picture attached, top is V2, bottom is V3).

In theory the first cut is for 1/2 teeth knocked off the release side, the second equals 3 teeth and the third is 4 teeth removed, in practice I use these two as a guide and cut other plates accordingly.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, steverebo said:

But all my batteries are 11.1v 30c

 

There must be another way

 

18:1

[steverebo]

Would my shs delayer chip have any effect on this?

[Skara]

1 minute ago, steverebo said:

Would my shs delayer chip have any effect on this?

Depends on how it's shaped, it can, because it picks up the tappet plate before the pin on the sector gear.

 

I'm using this (picture below) with the flat side on the left (pickup) so the nozzle movement isn't anticipated much.

 

[steverebo]

Mine is very similar in shape a bit bigger but I have the extended side in the right as well 

[steverebo]

Is it safe to take 4 coils from tappet spring?

Edited June 10, 2022 by steverebo

[Adolf Hamster]

10 hours ago, steverebo said:

Is it safe to take 4 coils from tappet spring?

 

worst thing that could happen is either the spring or the tappet plate breaks

 

and that's not the worse thing in the world to replace.

[steverebo]

Ok one modified tappet plate I removed a small amount at the top so it picks up a bit later and removed some from the bottom so it goes back faster should I take a bit more from the bottom or do you think that's enough

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by steverebo

[Adolf Hamster]

Give it a go and see.

 

You dont want to go higher than the axle of the sector else it'll start reducing the stroke (with inevitable feeding issues)

[steverebo]

So I've finally fixed all my issues I short stroked by one tooth which to be fair I needed as I was over for my cqb sight and use the custom tappet plate and spring I now get perfect 294 to 297 on semi and 290 to 295 on full auto which is close enough I use 3 round burst anyway and that stays at around the semi fps level.

 

Who would have thought a simple motor upgrade would be this much stress especially as its pretty much the same rpm as my stock ifrit motor