Glass BBs?!

[Rogerborg]

43 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they are banned, but each time I go to a club shoot, another (new) HD gun turns up in the clutches of a fellow club member with a shit-eating grin on their face.

 

Do you know what sort of energy they're putting out?   I've seen one being shot off on the range at a local airsoft site, and immediately ran to tell a grown up - who sadly didn't give a stuff, despite my concerns that it would punch through airsoft eyepro without stopping.

 

Oh, 7.5J pistols, with 11J versions available.  And 14J (on a cold day) for the shotgun, with versions up to 40J available.  Hard plastic balls are available and let's be honest, that's what you're going to use in these.

 

https://moderncombatsports.co.uk/products/umarex-hdr-50-paintball-gun-revolver

 

https://moderncombatsports.co.uk/products/umarex-t4e-hdx-68-paintball-shotgun

 

These can indeed get sodded off from airsoft sites.

 

 

[Speedbird_666]

7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Do you know what sort of energy they're putting out?   I've seen one being shot off on the range at a local airsoft site, and immediately ran to tell a grown up - who sadly didn't give a stuff, despite my concerns that it would punch through airsoft eyepro without stopping.

 

No clue. But the balls were mangling metal bread bins (normally used as a target holder and BB catcher for the guys that shoot 4.5mm pistols) with relative ease.

 

I would say that higher-end goggles with a proper safety rating and decent retention (i.e. a strap around the head) would fair ok, but cheapo eyepro glasses that some insist on wearing would be blasted clean off someone's face. A shot to the mouth would definitely require a trip to the dentist.

 

And the revolvers - well, they lend themselves to 'custom' projectiles being cylinder-based. A guy on the range made some nasty looking rounds using chopped up hot glue stick (which fit the cylinder perfectly) as wadding and various sharp bits of pointy metal set into them. Whilst I doubt that said person would ever point his gun at a human (he's a pretty cool dude from chatting with him), I'm sure some other idiot would have a similar ideas.

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

I would note that even EN166-B eye protection is only rated up to about 6.16J (with an 0.86g steel BB) and even the pistols exceed that.  Glasses can only be rated to EN166-F, or 0.87J, which isn't even enough for airsoft - although we know from experience that they tend to be fine.

 

Either way, I don't want things that spicy anywhere near my eyesight, and I include TAG rounds in that as well.

[Tommikka]

@Speedbird_666

@Rogerborg

 

These Home Defence guns do have  the attention of the Home Office & Border Force, and they aren’t entirely happy

 

Recent changes by the UKPSF on their guidelines to retailers are related to the increase in Home Defence designs 

 

If appropriate versions are here in the UK with the correct velocity limit and paintballs or first strikes then they are UK legal for paintball 

 

But if they are dodgy imports (or modified back to full velocity) then they are airguns and could be subject to deciding whether they are legal or illegal airguns 

 

Also irrespective of velocity if they are used with other projectiles then they are heading to the illegal side

The only approved projectiles for paintball are classic gelatine balls (which can be in non standard sizes) and First Strike shaped paintballs which were subject to testing a few years ago. First Strike testing was conducted on the 0.68” version, other sizes exist 

 

Rubber balls have been used in the past as ‘training paintballs’ (reballs etc). These are not approved for paintball 

 

Powder balls get used in the UK for some purposes - I’m seen them used for film special FX and for shooting galleries 

I’m aware of one event that was considering Powderball, but they were worried about legal implications and the event also never happened. 
They are not approved for paintball 

 

Modified projectiles will generate the interest of the courts 

Self defence is a right in the UK, but a self defence weapon is an offensive weapon

Get one of these found in your bedside table during a search by the police and you will be looking at a prosecution (I have seen this mentioned on forums, possibly also on here)

Use of a paintball gun for home defence /self defence is a stupid idea. I play that game for fun, and I enjoy going into the middle of a firefight as a photographer or Marshall getting repeatedly battered. It’s not going to put off a burglar, they either wouldn’t care or would be made grumpy.  You would have a better chance of scaring them off by waving the wife’s favourite toy at them

 

They definitely do not belong in an airsoft game.  On the chrono range its arguable - on the basis of it being a paintballer chrono checking 

On reporting to staff they should care or advise that it’s been OKd for testing/chrono checks etc - shrugging it off does not inspire me

 

 

The Umarex guns are not user adjustable.  They are preset by the valve.

The full HDR models can also exceed the Americans permitted velocity / power, and a number of reviews ‘advise’ to dry fire a few shots on 12 gram change 

 

Law enforcement & home defence versions of paintball guns have existed for many years - In fact a few paintball designs are spin offs from the ‘less than lethal’ models.

Typically these have been unrestricted valves marketed as home defence / law enforcement and adjustable restricted valves in paintball energy limits 

Umarex have come into the market as home defence with a restricted valve option. 
 

 

I’ve said many times how much I dislike airsoft glasses, I’ve seen BBs get in the side and glasses dislodged but these guns don’t belong anywhere near an airsoft game 

They belong with full face protection and at safe power limits 

 

 

Personally I do have an Umarex .50” revolver as a lockdown purchase, and it came from a reputable Uk retailer.  It has never been fired and won’t be used anywhere until I’ve done some proper chrono & range testing 

 

 

[Tommikka]

They generally get listed with options of 7.5, 11 or 16 joules in UK shops depending on model / calibre 

 

16 joules is within the 12 foot pounds limit for air weapons/rifles and therefore will be within the approx 300fps ‘legal” limit for a standard 0.68” paintball, but may or may not  exceed the general 280fps chrono limit on sites depending on the gun

 

Both 11 & 16 joules would exceed the air pistol limit if 6 foot pounds, and 7.5 joules would comply 

Theres then the question that hasn’t been answered in court as to whether the just over 300fps case law covers all paintball - and it has been suggested that a standard paintball gun could be classified as an air pistol 

 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Get one of these found in your bedside table during a search by the police and you will be looking at a prosecution (I have seen this mentioned on forums, possibly also on here)

 

I'd be fascinated to know what the charge would be for that.

 

And a reminder, should you ever make the mistake of inviting a vampire or copper into your home: say absolutely nothing.

 

Let the State claim that it determined your intent by reading your mind.  They can do that (see the Nazi Pug YouTube case), but whatever you do, don't ever say or imply that you own any sort of projectile flinger for use against nonconsenting humans, or even pikies.

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd be fascinated to know what the charge would be for that.

 

And a reminder, should you ever make the mistake of inviting a vampire or copper into your home: say absolutely nothing.

 

Let the State claim that it determined your intent by reading your mind.  They can do that (see the Nazi Pug YouTube case), but whatever you do, don't ever say or imply that you own any sort of projectile flinger for use against nonconsenting humans, or even pikies.

It would be interesting to know what the actual story was as opposed to the version he gave:

 

Someone with a history of ‘airgun offences’ reported a lorries dangerous driving, which resulted in his girlfriend letting CID in the door for a search without a warrant 

 

 

https://p8ntballer-forums.com/threads/paintball-and-the-law.171875/page-7

 

The original Facebook posts have disappeared, and (though only a basic name search) I’ve not found much other than someone with a similar name who would have been in prison at the time for conspiracy to murder 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Tommikka

[Cannonfodder]

Quote from a post in the link above

 

Paintballing is a permitted purpose under the VCRA

 

Is it?

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

Quote from a post in the link above

 

Paintballing is a permitted purpose under the VCRA

 

Is it?

In my opinion - no

In the opinion of the quoted barrister consulted by the UKPSF - yes

 

If you were to delete the word ‘airsoft’ from ‘airsoft skirmishing’ then I’d agree 

 

Based on the Association of police constables fact finding study and previous correspondence between the UKPSF and the Home Office then I’d agree that there have been musings that it could be argued in court as the intent of the law, where as the literal wording of the statutory instrument wouldn’t 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Someone with a history of ‘airgun offences’ reported a lorries dangerous driving, which resulted in his girlfriend letting CID in the door for a search without a warrant 

 

And they went through his bedside drawers?  Clearly more to it, if there's any truth to it at all.

 

Well, well, Scotland, and apparently fell foul of airgun licensing.  Now, that's something that I've been wondering about for some time given that I've yet to see this "frangible" exemption that's bandied around for paintball.  And these "home defence" guns clearly aren't intended to be used for paintball, given that they're being flogged with rubber or plastic projectiles.

 

If Dibble did find something in the 1J to 6 or 12 foot-pound range, loaded with plastic (or steel for all we know) and ready to go, I can't see any other reasonable classification for it other than an air weapon.

 

 

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

Paintballing is a permitted purpose under the VCRA

Is it?

 

It is not.  The only defence that we have is in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures which only lists airsoft.  Looks like paintballers are trying to cosy up to our defence after acknowledging the bleedin' obvious: that something which is a realistic imitation of a firearm is indeed a realistic imitation firearm.

 

The cheeky cads then go on to claim that while they enjoy the same defence, they have no need to demonstrate it with a UKARA-a-like scheme of playing history.  They can just buy membership in the Paintball Gang and tool up.

 

Which is really no worse than airsoft retailers pretending that cosplay is a defence, or accepting Military Vehicle Trust membership for purchase of modern RIFs.

 

Verrrry interesting, thanks for the the reference.

[Tommikka]

11 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 Now, that's something that I've been wondering about for some time given that I've yet to see this "frangible" exemption that's bandied around for paintball.

We keep saying “frangible”, but are referring to “lethality” and “lethal barrelled weapon/air weapon” 

 

For example first strikes only became ungrey when official testing was paid for and they were fully assessed for “lethality”

 

 

(First strikes are a half sphere paintball with a plastic ‘fin’ on the back, looking a bit like an airgun pellet

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Tommikka said:

We keep saying “frangible”, but are referring to “lethality” and “lethal barrelled weapon/air weapon”

 

And "lethal barrelled weapon" is defined thusly.  I'll highlight the critical words:

 

(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

 

Note the difference from the 57A airsoft definition which exempts us from this categorisation based on "design", rather than capability.

 

Shooting a glass or metal BB out of an airsoft gun doesn't turn it into a firearm.  And I'm baffled as to why shooting paint (or chalk) from some 13J(!) yeet cannon means that it's not a lethal barrelled air weapon, given that it's still capable of slinging steel.

 

It seems that the Home Office has chosen to turn a blind(ed) eye, but if you were hauled before a Scotch court for having an unlicensed air rifle, what statutory definition could you point to as a exemption or defence?

 

I wouldn't own a paintball gun - excuse me, "marker" - in Scotchland now, and I'm careful to keep my non-firearm-toys well under 1.3 / 2.5J.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

….., can be discharged.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

 

Spot on.

Not a lot of people realise that the police can pick it up and test fire with anything

A major win for airsoft when the redefinition was drafted

 

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

 

It seems that the Home Office has chosen to turn a blind(ed) eye,

This is the key point - the police, Home Office & Border Force have had a good relationship with the UKPSF and we are reliant on the ‘intention’ of the law and that something doesn’t make it to court, or that dickhead-ism gets prosecuted on other points

A change in political view or the wrong case could go very badly

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

but if you were hauled before a Scotch court for having an unlicensed air rifle, what statutory definition could you point to as a exemption or defence?

 

 

None - and worse than that in the old days, Scottish paintball sites were constantly raided for unlicensed section 5 firearms because the definintion of an airgun didn’t cover CO2

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

, "marker"

This is a term that I very much dislike.  
It sounds like we are hiding something

with secret words 

I get very hot under the collar when spotty teenagers try to tell me it’s not a ‘paintball gun’ but a ‘marker’ and that I should learn my history because ‘they have always been called markers’

 

They were ‘paint marking guns’ and ‘paint marking pistols’, which fired paint to actually mark items.  We fire a coloured gelatine that rubs off

 

’Marker’ is very much a PC term that comes from the US in the late 80s/90s to ‘disassociate’ from the gun nuts so that mums will let their kids play ….. and then had bloodthirsty team names

[Jan Pawlowski]

I'm an amateur in Airsoft and getting hit by a regular BBs are painful enough. I wouldn't want to be hit with something harder.