Stripping two-tone paint okay?

[Haru]

Just want to confirm, whether it is okay for me to strip paint off and go to a site without a UKARA

[Guest]

You can't strip off the paint, as that counts as manufacturing a RIF, and you're not allowed

[Jedi_Master]

Two-tone guns are an Imitation Firearm (IF) and S.36 of the VCRA covers the Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms (RIF)

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

[You would need a valid defence to manufacture (i.e. paint) a RIF from what was originally an IF]

 

For the purpose of skirmishing you can temporarily cover the two-tone paint, i.e. using camouflage tape.  Putting camouflaged tape over a two-tone at a skirmish is permissible due to being a temporary modification purely for the game.  After the skirmish the tape is removed.  Sniper tape is a cheap way to cover the gun for a game day and is then easy to remove afterwards.  

 

Are you over 18 years old?  You do not need to be on the UKARA database to play airsoft, it just makes it easier for a retailer/seller to check whether it is legal to sell you a RIF.

 

[Haru]

Aw that sucks, I am over 18, hypothetically if I were to strip the paint and no one finds out. I assume you do not need a license to own an RIF only when it comes to sales, I would be in the clear.

[Jedi_Master]

Before someone else says it - there is no airsoft license (UKARA or otherwise). 

[Tommikka]

34 minutes ago, Haru said:

Aw that sucks, I am over 18, hypothetically if I were to strip the paint and no one finds out. I assume you do not need a license to own an RIF only when it comes to sales, I would be in the clear.

'If no one finds out' also works for bank robberies, but still isn't legal 

 

Under VCRA removing two tone paint falls under 1b of the extract above .... removing the two tone paint of an IF which renders it a RIF.  

 

You don't need to be on the UKARA register to be VCRA compliant, but do need to be a skirmiser 

 

You can possess a RIF and go and play, it's an offence for someone to sell you a RIF without you having one of the VCRA defenses which makes the seller liable to a fine, it's an offence for you to modify / remove two tone paint without a VCRA defence

 

The easiest way is to play with a two tone or a rental, get your card stamped and then get registered under the UKARA

 

 

[Haru]

52 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

'If no one finds out' also works for bank robberies, but still isn't legal 

 

Under VCRA removing two tone paint falls under 1b of the extract above .... removing the two tone paint of an IF which renders it a RIF.  

 

You don't need to be on the UKARA register to be VCRA compliant, but do need to be a skirmiser 

 

You can possess a RIF and go and play, it's an offence for someone to sell you a RIF without you having one of the VCRA defenses which makes the seller liable to a fine, it's an offence for you to modify / remove two tone paint without a VCRA defence

 

The easiest way is to play with a two tone or a rental, get your card stamped and then get registered under the UKARA

 

 

eh, i guess i could wait til i have my defense then strip the paint. its only 2 months anyway

[Jedi_Master]

25 minutes ago, Haru said:

eh, i guess i could wait til i have my defense then strip the paint. its only 2 months anyway

 

Now that is a good response.  Upholding the spirit of the VCRA, doing the right thing, and playing the (airsoft) game.

[Rogerborg]

So, let's suppose that I've been stopped in public by a warranted constable, and they've discovered that I'm in possession of a RIF.

 

Before we even get on to the nuances of VCRA, I've got to deal with the Firearms Act 1968, S19 offence: "without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place an imitation firearm".

 

This is where I make a rapid grab for my printed booking receipt, confirmation email, or at the very least a map and site information for a walk-on site to demonstrate that I'm on my way to an organised skirmish.

 

Having persuaded Dibble that I'm a fine upstanding citizen who isn't falling foul of the Firearms Act, I've also demonstrated my defence to any VCRA charge of modifying an IF into a RIF.

 

Any flaws in that scenario?

[AndyGif290368]

what were you doing to get stopped and searched in this scenario?

if the RIF is correctly stowed in an appropriate container, then why would there be a problem with you carrying it?   Guesing your not carrying it loosely wrapped in a bin bag or tesco's carriers?

 

Making a sudden/rapid grab for anything would probably see you chewing pavement in short order.

 

 

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, AndyGif290368 said:

what were you doing to get stopped and searched in this scenario?

 

Suppositioning with intent.  Sorry, I've clarified that I was speculating on the scenario which might (indirectly) lead to a VCRA question about modification.

 

 

5 hours ago, AndyGif290368 said:

if the RIF is correctly stowed in an appropriate container, then why would there be a problem with you carrying it?

 

Precisely my point.  It's very unlikely to be an issue at all.

 

But if it becomes an issue, then our airsoft defence to possessing the RIF in public (which we do need and should have to hand) also serves as a defence to modifying the RIF.

 

For an example of how tolerant the police can be, see this cosplayer who was stopped by armed police while wandering merrily through Birmingham airport wearing tacticool and openly carrying a RIF.  Note the conclusion: words of advice, sent on his way.  Just have your destination details to hand and don't fail the Attitude Test.

 

I've just bought some two-tones, but the risk from the act of de-toytowning them prior to getting a UKARA number doesn't bother me in the slightest since my purpose is to use them for airsoft skirmishing, and that's the only circumstances in which they'll be transported in public.

[Tommikka]

Not being a VCRA offence to possess, being 'caught' in possession in a public place could be for both an IF and a RIF

 

In the circumstances of being searched for some reason the specific circumstances and the attitude test are a major factor

Fully a VCRA compliant RIF held by a skirmisher, but acting in an inappropriate way can be an offence in itself.  Sometimes a bit of reeducation can be the solution

Im aware of cases that have taken place with paintball and BB guns which when reported in the media have ended with 'police attended and advised the individual' and 'no offence was committed' - some of which despite the 'no offence' commuted have been an offence of some part of the various acts  such as having it fully assembled, in full view of the public etc but discretion was used.

 

Being able to 'prove' the reason it is being transported could still be considered valid as under the VCRA there are just the selection of defences, in which skirmishing at a site with public liability insurance etc.  So if accepted then it's fair enough 

The industry and sellers etc don't know a buyers intent, hence the UKARA arrangements which make it quite reasonable for them to believe purchase is intended for the valid use

[Rogerborg]

Coincidentally, I was talking to a warranted constable about this today.  I admitted the offence of de-two-toning, noted the Firearms Act issue, and that the defence to one was the defence to the other.

 

He didn't make an issue of it, told me that he'd never actually heard of airsoft gun coming to the attention of the police... and then told me that he was a copper.  Silver Fox Airsoft, great chap. 

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Coincidentally, I was talking to a warranted constable about this today.  I admitted the offence of de-two-toning, noted the Firearms Act issue, and that the defence to one was the defence to the other.

 

He didn't make an issue of it, told me that he'd never actually heard of airsoft gun coming to the attention of the police... and then told me that he was a copper.  Silver Fox Airsoft, great chap. 

I wouldn't always rely on an individual warranted constable.

 

Last year a friend of mines father passed away, neighbours were worried and called in the police.  They broke in to find him dead in his arm chair.

He was a film maker and general purpose bloke adventurer.

One of his blank firing cowboy six guns was hung up in a leather holster from his bookcase and the constable carried it away held at arms length to the police car and took it to the station for analysis

He also found 'live ammunition'

There was a diving knife complete with dried blood also hung from the book case, another leather cowboy holster with the other six gun missing.  (It was in a drawer)

The police also failed to notice an air rifle behind the kitchen door, another under the bed, an assortment of air pistols in cupboards and drawers throughout.

 

When they called the next of kin and when she arrived they failed to mention the revolver and live ammunition that had been taken away, it was only when neighbours told her about the pistol being taken away.

So they had taken a pistol for further investigation but failed to notice the other weapons in full view nor look for any others that may be hidden away.  

So she may have then been worried about  the missing weapon, or on the other hand if it turned out to be suspicious / illegal they left her in control of access to any other hidden illegal weapons.

 

She had to later enquire to confirm that it was taken by the police, wait & wait for

any action.  At a later date the constable remarked about the 'live ammunition' that had been found and removed.  

(More than a week later and he was unable to know if they were blanks to go with the blank firing pistols or genuine live rounds). Not very good at investigating a

potential firearms offence, and if they were full real live rounds then where were

the guns to go with them?

 

 

The pistol and ammunition sat around in a constables desk 'awaiting inspection' until eventually she was allowed to collect the pistol, along with her stating she didn't want the ammunition and leaving it from destruction

 

Not every bobby knows all about the law, and worryingly not every bobby knows what to do when weapons are found and who to notify.  But we can be fairly sure that bobby now knows who he should call

following the complaints and questions she asked at the station

[Tommikka]

Air guns & BB guns:

 

 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/police-warning-over-air-guns-11638029.amp

[EDcase]

It still confuses me how its possible to buy a RIF Co2 powered pistol which fires metal BB's or even more dangerous pellets but need to be registered to buy one that fires plastic BB's ?!?!?!

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I wouldn't always rely on an individual warranted constable.

 

I most certainly don't, I mention it just as an anecdote.  I had no idea that Silver Fox was a copper, but in retrospect, big, calm, pragmatic blokes have always formed the backbone of the police force.

 

 

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Not every bobby knows all about the law

 

My point exactly. Every Bobby knows only a tiny proportion of the law.  Even lawyers have to specialise.  The politicians that write it certainly have little conception of the size of the smelly heap that they're industriously piling ever-higher  There may be a 200 year old Mandarin in the dusty bowels of Whitehall who has a fair idea.

 

What the police know is the crib-notes version.  Oi, that's a shooter, what are you up to?  Right, you're on your way to an organised, insured airsoft site, are you?  Oh, a booking receipt / map to the site.  Well, careful now.

 

If anyone in possession of a RIF ever passes the Firearms Act S19 test, but falls foul of VCRA S36 then I'll eat my helmet.

[Tommikka]

21 hours ago, EDcase said:

It still confuses me how its possible to buy a RIF Co2 powered pistol which fires metal BB's or even more dangerous pellets but need to be registered to buy one that fires plastic BB's ?!?!?!

Because it's not an imitation and therefore neither RIF nor IF.

It would be an air gun which falls within firearms legislation, and if below the appropriate power does not require licence (but does in Scotland)

There are those who would like them to be licenced across the UK

 

[Rogerborg]

They'd better get Nerf guns while they're at it. Y U NO EYEPRO THO?

[Tommikka]

38 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

They'd better get Nerf guns while they're at it. Y U NO EYEPRO THO?

Eyepro - exactly

 

Ive not read much, just seen as linked and heard on the radio

 

I take it that doctors have written a paper on eye injuries from Nerf and the papers have run away with it.

 

The answer is for parents to be responsible and ensure their kids are capable of following the rules and wearing the eye protection as advised on every Nerf guns box

If your kids won't then don't give them Nerf guns 

[EDcase]

15 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Because it's not an imitation and therefore neither RIF nor IF.

It would be an air gun which falls within firearms legislation, and if below the appropriate power does not require licence (but does in Scotland)

There are those who would like them to be licenced across the UK

 

Yes they are RIF. (I have an SP2022)

That's my point: Why an air gun DOESN'T need license or registering but a much less dangerous 'toy' does....

 

[Tommikka]

54 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Yes they are RIF. (I have an SP2022)

That's my point: Why an air gun DOESN'T need license or registering but a much less dangerous 'toy' does....

 

If it's a RIF then you need one of the defences.

But as an airgun it's a firearm and not an imitation, whether or not it's a replica of a 'real gun'

 

The VCRA covers only imitation firearms and gives valid defences.

 

All firearms legislation is to be reviewed

[Rogerborg]

Metal shooting air guns are in a particularly weird place, being actual "lethal barrelled" (>1J) firearms, but enjoying special dispensation to be sold unlicensed (except in Scotland) and without any defence, bizarrely because they're real rather than imitations.

 

The Firearms Act is a complete and utter mess. It's an offence to shoot an air weapon (and only an air weapon) from on premises to off of those premises, unless you have the permission of the occupier of the other premises.  Under 18 you can't purchase or hire any firearm, but you can be gifted and possess firearm at 14.  Unless it's a shotgun, in which case you have to be 15, unless you're accompanied by someone 21 or over.  You can't possess an air weapon until you're 18, unless accompanied by a 21+ year old, or you're 14+ on private property.

 

And on and on and on, amendment after amendment, caveat after caveat.

 

Which brings me back to my point that coppers cannot possibly be expected to know the legislation, or even a significant proportion of it.  Don't be a dick with your airsoft guns and it's just not going to be a problem for you.

[Tommikka]

@EDcase

 

The core legislation is the Firearms act, this defines what is a licenced or unlicensed firearm.

 

Paintball had the first problem with firearms legislation as when it arrived in the UK it ran on CO2 but legislation only allowed for 'air weapons'

In England and Wales the Home Office & police ignored this distinction and paintball was allowed, in Scotland the police kept to the word of the law in black and white and regularly raided Scottish paintball sites.  The legislation was revised to allow CO2 into the air weapons definiion

 

Over time other things became declared illegal such as brocock airpistols because the 'bullet' assembly contained the air and  projectile 

 

The VCRA  when it was just a bill gained momentum as an anti chav law.  To link into 'violent crime' but to fill the gap between real illegal firearms and lookalike toys, avoiding issues with kids playing with toys that look too real and chavs posing or using lookalikes with the defence and easy availability that 'it's just a toy'

This stood on the toes of the legitimate airsoft community and the industry stood in to negotiations resulting in an additional skirmisher defence in the act.

Paintball at that time had only a very minor and quiet true 'mil sim' community, but they didn't use lookalikes at that time.  It was a battle that the UKPSF couldn't win and wasn't attempted.  There is no specific paintball RIF defence - but we do have some Home Office statements, one of which came in recent years following the increase of paintball lookalikes and retailers being worried is that paintball might not need to worry about the VCRA at all as it is a low powered air weapon under firearms legislation and also has past case law with regard to frangible projectiles.  If that stood up in law then paintball guns are legal unclicenced firearms and therefore cannot be IFs or RIFs

 

In Scotland the latest air weapons legislation requiring an air gun certificate is again a chav law (Ned in Scottish) and directly goes after plinkers.  In England we have plinking but they have not had bad attention from legislations (as long as they behave under existing legislation) but have quite a problem with inner city 'plinkers' shooting from tower blocks

This was a key political message in pushing the legislation

 

Northern Ireland have other issues with strict controls, but is also the only part of the UK where self defence can be a valid reason for owning a firearm

 

Other parts of the UK haven't been hit to date with more legislation on air guns/metal BB guns etc.  This is dependant on how owners act, and if the irresponsible are dealt with under the existing legislation 

 

 

 

Across the UK in principle I would welcome tidying up of all the legislation, and to a degree would be happy to have a licence or certificate (of course depending on what hoops i need to jump through and at what cost)

 

 

[sniperboyle]

i would like to know if i can paint the body of my l 115 NATO mat green i am a reenactor and i have a reenactors licence is it legal