Should the UK leave the EU?

[Sitting Duck]

 

SD - by foreign investment I don't mean currency trading, I mean foreign companies choosing to site their premises here due to being in a good position as a gateway to Europe (Nissan/BMW/Honda for example).

 

So was I........

 

If £ is going down then in turn investment by other countries "could" offer a risk still but a greater return

Does the global economy really see the UK sinking into the North Sea - no of course not

 

Companies already established may be looking at all options but few have booked the removal men just yet

 

Investment though is another matter and the news is awash with numerous stories but still in limbo

 

Wishful thinking - probably in a coma more like....

But The EU is still reeling from the fallout of all this and it has made an impact on all

So though the EU will/most likely survive there could still be further implications on all remaining members plus possible aftershocks of possible other referendums or at least a review on how this came about

 

So very few things are set in stone and numerous people are watching for the installment in this major upset

Don't think they are all jumping ship just yet - they are checking the lifeboats & stuff but watching how bad the boat lists

 

 

actually this is incorrect - Scotland are still trying to cling on to the Titanic saying "We are not leaving - we never voted to leave"

 

Just kidding chaps - no offense meant - we shall have to wait & see I guess

[Sacarathe]

It will be interesting to see whether the Salisbury convention will apply to any attempts to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, I can't recall any mention of the brexit in the last conservative election manifesto.

[Sitting Duck]

edit - I'm done on this for now

[Sacarathe]

edit - I'm done on this for now

 

Well they don't need to reside in that country after they have been granted asylum?

[Sitting Duck]

I said I'm done on this but what you refer to is all subject to various changes that has been taking place and will keep taking place

 

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/reception-conditions/access-forms-reception-conditions/freedom-movement

 

The freedom of movement and its interpretation and instances of where/whom it applies to is complicating matters

I said earlier I see no reason that EU citizens will change very much - probably 85/90% same stuff

BUT in certain instances I feel each country - EU or outside EU should be able to reserve the right to refuse

All EU citizens currently in UK MUST be entitled to stay - we should set this example anyway regardless of what negotiations may take place with exiting EU

 

That is all I'm going to say, I'm not dressed in a KKK or Nazi outfit on White Cliffs of Dover pitchforks & torches at the ready just coz I voted leave

[proffrink]

We will not be able to easily change the laws surrounding freedom of movement - the EU has made it very clear that trade goes hand-in-hand with immigration during their negotiations with the Swiss over the past two years:

 

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/swiss-told-to-vote-again-on-free-movement-except-this-time-the-stakes-are-higher/

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html (paragraph 3)

 

Unless Brussels changes its mind before next February, we will get identical treatment.

 

This is interesting as well: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

[Sitting Duck]

wtf - I stated I see EU migration staying nigh on the same anyway even if we negotiate an exit or new terms

 

What I said but deleted was to do with the Dublin Convention but hard to enforce as each EU country simply waves on illegal immigrants and/or asylum seekers towards the next country etc....

 

I'm done - really done coz this was a can of worms I did not wish opened on here of all places

[skarra333]

Edited - decided not to add this one to the discussion.

[proffrink]

wtf - I stated I see EU migration staying nigh on the same anyway even if we negotiate an exit or new terms

 

What I said but deleted was to do with the Dublin Convention but hard to enforce as each EU country simply waves on illegal immigrants and/or asylum seekers towards the next country etc....

 

I'm done - really done coz this was a can of worms I did not wish opened on here of all places

You've said it yourself: I'm agreeing with you, but perhaps adding that it'll remain 100% the same unless there's a fundamental change to EU policy. Something we can't have a hand in if we don't have MEPs anyway, but I digress.

 

Felt it was important to add to this thread because for a lot of people this new-found sovereignty will potentially mean immigration reform, but they fail to understand (and I'm not saying this is the case with you) that open trade with the EU has gone in hand with open borders for years now, and is a cornerstone of EU policy regardless of membership (see Norway and Switzerland).

 

The overarching sentiment of your post seems to be that it won't make a difference because the EU is inherently broken when it comes to enforcement of immigration policies. I kind of agree, but the reason I voted to remain was so we could work to change that (again, I think there are some representation issues that need to be worked out first but hey). I don't know why anyone thinks these are issues we can 'fix' from being on the outside unless we also sacrifice free trade. Which frankly to me comes far down the list after the economy.

[Sitting Duck]

I'm just agreeing with you, but perhaps adding that it'll remain 100% the same unless there's a fundamental change to EU policy. Something we can't do if we don't have MEPs anyway, but I digress.

 

With nutters like Farage still being an MEP - god help us trying to negotiate a business lunch in Brussels let alone anything else

 

There are flaws in the EU which you would think could be ironed out within the EU but there is so much arrogance from everybody that it is impossible to reach some common sense - this leaves a stalemate/standoff scenario which I feel that everybody is forcing each others hand so to speak

 

You got far right - far left all coming out the woodwork causing more divisions within divisions which is getting nobody anywhere

It is just wasting more time, more money to which people will blame Brexit or EU Remain camps for - depending on which side of fence you are on

 

Pity Junker don't resign then we might have some hope of discussion - but alas really think there are such deep divisions & differences of opinions that like I said I feel everybody's arrogance/ignorance is forcing each others hands, resulting in it all going nowhere. Which is a real shame if a group of civilised allied nations can't work stuff out

 

I do not wish to enter into further rows & crap - respect people's views x x x

[Sacarathe]

I said I'm done on this but

I do not wish to enter into further rows & crap - respect people's views x x x

 

Remember, we can discuss the consequences of Brexit, without getting into a lardy-dar about the leave/remain campaigns, or the merits of the vote, or whether the referendum was a good idea.

 

Maybe the thread title should now be "Will" instead of "Should".

[padraigthesniper]

 

It does bother me how the 'Leave Campaign' is badged as this Hydra like creature that acted and moved as one. It really wasn't. The leave campaign and voters were a broad coalition with many many messages and, as an example, the guy in Stone highstreet who spoke to me about why we should leave peddled none of the lies Prof Dougan refers to.

Overly focusing on the campaign is a mistake in my opinion.

 

Europhiles like this Prof need to unpick why there was always a vast ocean of Euroscepticism coupled with the other reasons (bitterness at globalisation, increased nationalism etc) that led to people voting leave.

A Prof Keating wrote this week that there is the real prospect of a rise in the far-right here as was the case in the 30s, 70s and 90s - ignoring the deeper long-term origins of the leave voters in favour of assuming they were just suckered by a campaign of lies does nobody any favours IMO.

 

What lies? lol also so you guys who voted leave didn't want to change immigration? because its staying the same according to the leave party now so check one. So you didnt want the 350 million we sent to go to the nhs? oh the leave party admitted that was not the real figure and could not make sure the lesser amount goes to the nhs check 2. So you didn't vote to ruin the economy based on foolish nationalism only to see the other countries in the uk get nationalistic and want independence from us too?

 

This shit is pure comedy like its scientific evidence people do not vote with their brains (: thats all i have to say...

[skarra333]

 

What lies? lol also so you guys who voted leave didn't want to change immigration? because its staying the same according to the leave party now so check one. So you didnt want the 350 million we sent to go to the nhs? oh the leave party admitted that was not the real figure and could not make sure the lesser amount goes to the nhs check 2. So you didn't vote to ruin the economy based on foolish nationalism only to see the other countries in the uk get nationalistic and want independence from us too?

 

This sh*t is pure comedy like its scientific evidence people do not vote with their brains (: thats all i have to say...

 

 

"What lies?"

 

According to the Prof in the video, numerous lies were peddled. Please refer to the video if you wish to hear them.

 

I didn't want to take the bait, but can't resist... Some things about your post:

 

"lol also so you guys who voted leave didn't want to change immigration? because its staying the same according to the leave party now so check one"

 

- No such thing as the leave party, the leave and remain campaigns both drew in members, supporters and historical voters of all parties. One of the striking things about the referendum was that voting was NOT down party lines.

- The only people who say immigration will stay the same have as much weight and clout as Barry the bootleg DVD seller at Nottingham market. Part of the problem is that nobody with real authority provided an alternative vision for how they wanted immigration to work. The leave campaign referencing an Australian style system was put forward as a preferred option from a select few. Even MigrationWatch and the pro-Leave MPs they are close with didn't want it. The issue here is how the new PM and political leaders approach negotiations. This is part of why so many people are pushing for Andrea Leadsome to be the next PM. Part of their thinking is that a proper Leave campaigner will help to ensure the nations concerns on migration are acted upon, rather - as they see it - than Teresa May who would be prepared to sign us up to a Norway style agreement with free movement maintained under the auspices of necessity for accessing the single market.

 

"So you didnt want the 350 million we sent to go to the nhs? oh the leave party admitted that was not the real figure and could not make sure the lesser amount goes to the nhs check 2"

 

- I knew this figure was BS so it didn't factor into my thinking thank you.

 

"So you didn't vote to ruin the economy based on foolish nationalism only to see the other countries in the uk get nationalistic and want independence from us too?"

 

- Foolish nationalism?? ***sigh***

Mainstream nationalist movements have been a major main driver behind the rise of devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales (N.I is too complex to lump in with them) for the last 15 years+.

Few people called them foolish anymore.

Indeed, part of the analysis for the Briexit voters cite a perceived democratic deficit in England, with people feeling less in control of their lives than ever, and their leaders and policy makers an ever more distant bunch.

Neal Ascherson wrote recently that:

 

"People feel that they should be increasingly empowered, and yet their actual ability to change their lives is visibly dwindling. England has no devolved government of its own, no intermediate regional tier of democratic authority to intercept complaints. Instead, the pad in the hand shows the antics of what seems to be a single power elite, self-perpetuating, privileged and fortified behind the pinnacles of London."

 

The frustration at this setup was given an opportunity to vent in the EU referendum (which is but a part of the deficit), and it did so.

So I say to you sir that English Nationalism is only a problem today because it is something that has been stymied, ignored by the ruling classes and reduced to a foolish racist trait under a desire to destroy it, when in fact all it did was push it underground and to the extremes (such as the growing strength of the EDL).

The SNP seem to have found a way to make Scottish Nationalism work in one of the most enlightened and progressive forms we're likely to see. English Nationalism is here, and here to stay. You can continue to ignore it, and scoff at it if you wish - but you won't be helping - I bet you £20 on that.

[jcheeseright]

That £20 bet is getting worth less and less every day... just saying!

[Sitting Duck]

Moving on a tiny bit - regarding Referendum Result, Article 50 & PM's voting & crap......

The referendum was debated and voted on by PM's in the first place

Even Corbyn voted for a referendum, (though he abstained mostly but records show he did vote for and not against a referendum)

voted for a mixture of for/against more EU integration as well as voting against the Iraq war

 

I didn't know about this but it makes interesting reading if you really really wanted to go through all MP's voting history

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mps/

 

So the referendum wasn't just chucked in at last minute and is only advisory

Is the words advisory or binding terms translate if MP's disagree or agree with the final result ???

Yet they voted to allow a referendum in the first place after years of debate ???

 

Ah well - it is a nightmare but some interesting stuff on how elected MP's vote on issues

ps - still trying to stay out of bitching but just stumbled across stuff that I didn't know about

might not be 101% accurate but it is a start in making politicians more accountable

yes it might have been there blah blah blah - but joe public like moi probably never knew about it I'd say

 

peace & truth (hopefully) x x x

[Sacarathe]

So the referendum wasn't just chucked in at last minute and is only advisory

Is the words advisory or binding terms translate if MP's disagree or agree with the final result ???

Yet they voted to allow a referendum in the first place after years of debate ???

 

peace & truth (hopefully) x x x

 

No, its simply that if a referendum was binding, why would we need a parliament? We don't live in 'by the people for the people' land.

[Sitting Duck]

 

No, its simply that if a referendum was binding, why would we need a parliament? We don't live in 'by the people for the people' land.

 

Hmmmm - odd that the Scottish referendum was considered to be binding ???

 

Parliament debated voted and gave people the referendums....

The same people that elected those MP's to Parliament to debate these and other issues

Those MP's then gave the people that elected them a referendum to decide

 

So why now are legal teams trying to ergh & uhmm if the referendums given to the people are advisory/binding/legal

When the MP's actually gave the referendum to the people ???

 

Now if Westminster has to vote on Article 50 - even though a referendum was given to the people by MP's in the first place

So like I asked - could the Leaver's go to the EU courts if this gets blocked ???

 

Which the irony and continued fallout is going to be even more immense and longer turmoil and UK politics following the UK sinking deeper into the sea

The EU courts could have to step in on this matter - which is absolutely mental when you think about it

 

I can't see what the problem is, nigh on all MP's respect the result that they gave to the people

Assure - no guarantee all EU nationals they are allowed to stay rather than the vile bollox being spouted about

lead by example so to speak, trigger Article 50 and just get on with it and deal with it

 

The real issues should then be discussed and not ducked or dodged

[Sacarathe]

 

Hmmmm - odd that the Scottish referendum was considered to be binding ???

 

Parliament debated voted and gave people the referendums....

The same people that elected those MP's to Parliament to debate these and other issues

Those MP's then gave the people that elected them a referendum to decide

 

So why now are legal teams trying to ergh & uhmm if the referendums given to the people are advisory/binding/legal

When the MP's actually gave the referendum to the people ???

 

Now if Westminster has to vote on Article 50 - even though a referendum was given to the people by MP's in the first place

So like I asked - could the Leaver's go to the EU courts if this gets blocked ???

 

Which the irony and continued fallout is going to be even more immense and longer turmoil and UK politics following the UK sinking deeper into the sea

The EU courts could have to step in on this matter - which is absolutely mental when you think about it

 

I can't see what the problem is, nigh on all MP's respect the result that they gave to the people

Assure - no guarantee all EU nationals they are allowed to stay rather than the vile bollox being spouted about

lead by example so to speak, trigger Article 50 and just get on with it and deal with it

 

The real issues should then be discussed and not ducked or dodged

 

It is not the result (ie Scotland) which makes a referendum binding, it is the legislation empowering the vote to take place, and in either case, a binding referendum is a constitutional impossibility.

 

The leavers could not win in the EU courts on this as they would be arguing against parliamentary sovereignty which has nothing to do with the EU.

[Sitting Duck]

 

It is not the result (ie Scotland) which makes a referendum binding, it is the legislation empowering the vote to take place, and in either case, a binding referendum is a constitutional impossibility.

 

The leavers could not win in the EU courts on this as they would be arguing against parliamentary sovereignty which has nothing to do with the EU.

 

Really ????

When the EU Courts has overturned numerous UK rulings in the past for the daftest of reasons ???

 

I mean on the flip side the Remainers could refer this to the EU also

but tbh it is just refusing to accept the UK referendum result, which is just wasting more time/money in the end

 

We are divided without question - but still raises the question that if vote had gone the other way then would we really have all this crap going on ???

[Sacarathe]

 

Really ????

When the EU Courts has overturned numerous UK rulings in the past for the daftest of reasons ???

 

I mean on the flip side the Remainers could refer this to the EU also

but tbh it is just refusing to accept the UK referendum result, which is just wasting more time/money in the end

 

We are divided without question - but still raises the question that if vote had gone the other way then would we really have all this crap going on ???

 

The EU courts made those rulings in line with their (law laws which originate in the EU) own laws or because of treaties which we are a part of. If its a question of who has the final say on this referendum it is an internal matter. In order to go to the EU courts, the UK has to do something which conflicts with an external* law.

 

*Matter of perspective what "external" means here.

 

Rich people like stability. I guess.

 

As for complaining about the result, or not following the result, is the argument going to be "I don't like it" or "it's not fair"?

 

I simply cannot believe Brexit can happen without a general election. And in that case whomever stands up and says "remain" has my vote - as stupid as that situation is, no one really wants a re-ferendum .

[Sitting Duck]

A General Election is hardly anywhere near an option with Labour still in turmoil and a leader that is on par with King Cnut

Cameron bails even though he stated he would trigger asap

 

Politics or politicians are hardly in a position to even contemplate putting themselves out there for a General Election

Think most MP's are not wishing to rock the boat too much if their own job/election for MP is on the line

Most MP's are concerned about looking out for their own Political career at the end of the day when push comes to shove

[Sacarathe]

Cameron bails even though he stated he would trigger asap

 

He doesn't have the authority to trigger it.

 

As paradoxic as this might sound, I feel as though politics will have failed me if Brexit goes ahead, but that's no different for the flip side if it doesn't go ahead for all the leave voters. It's lose/lose for the politicians.

 

Who do they want to support, the rich braindead leavers or the poor youthful remainers? - not a serious comment.

[skarra333]

 

He doesn't have the authority to trigger it.

 

As paradoxic as this might sound, I feel as though politics will have failed me if Brexit goes ahead, but that's no different for the flip side if it doesn't go ahead for all the leave voters. It's lose/lose for the politicians.

 

Who do they want to support, the rich braindead leavers or the poor youthful remainers? - not a serious comment.

 

It's an easier decision for some politicians. Most tories come from constituencies that voted leave anyways. Labour and the Lib Dems (I think they still exist) are the ones with a problem. Excluding London, most of their MPs will be facing constituencies with 60%+ leave support...

[Sitting Duck]

ahh f*ck it I'm done for today I think....

only wanted to post up the MP vote site I guess

we all got different views I guess - all valid but still very different

 

so here are a few more to chew over....

 

 

 

 

x x x

[padraigthesniper]

Well i think now we got sovereignty from the EU. We need it from the rest of the world we should shut down the internet connection leading off this wonderful place and anyone who attempts to contact us can be nuked on sight unless they swear allegiance to the Queen. We cannot allow anyone to control us except our government they wouldn't ever try to hurt us would they? And if people dont like it the traitors can be dumped into the sea after being hanged via royal helicopter. Fuck any where except here we have the best piece of land in the entire universe the foreigners can get there own rain bucket.