usable range of airsoft guns

[K@rl]

My issue with hot guns isn't the increased distance it the risk to eye pro especially if it's a "reaction shot" at close range.

 

A .43 @ 350 fps = 2.45J. A .2 @ 2.45J will be travelling @ over 500 fps. The gun still transmits the same energy regardless of the weight. (Give or take)

[proffrink]

Well, I sem to have turned this thread in to a JC debate, sorry about that! One thing I have to add, a gun firing at say 550fps on .2's doesn't really gain any extra distance. 600 fps and you start seeing a bit of an increase. I've often wondered what the fps of a BB would be at 25 meter mark (In other words, how much force is lost in the first 20-25 meters). Having a 25/30 meter "ME" helps more than anything. Oh yeah, do people not realize that 1 yard is not the same as 1 meter? I now have a Hawke optics Laser range finder and even in the video review they talk about yards, it measures ONLY in Meters!

Sure, with a .20g it might not, but when you're shooting that same muzzle energy with heavier weights their energy degrades much slower. This is why a lot of people thing those using heavier weights are cheating because it carries that energy for longer and hits harder at longer ranges than a lighter BB that had the same energy leaving the barrel.

 

There are a few nuances here it would be unfair to ask people to understand, but one thing is for sure: Joule creep does exist and the current way of crono'ing doesn't allow for it. If I were shooting 400fps instead of 350fps would you be annoyed? I sure would.

 

My issue with hot guns isn't the increased distance it the risk to eye pro especially if it's a "reaction shot" at close range.

Any half-decent eye protection is rated much higher that anything we shoot at it, but fair point. Thing is, measuring muzzle energy rather than fps goes a way to mitigating hot guns better than anything we have now. There is the issue of energy conservation from heavier weights, but you're never going to solve that through any way other than banning heavy weights (which some CQB sites do).

 

Edit

This might help to understand why people use heavier weights of BB:

 

tl;dr, at 1.49J (still above site limits but just as an example figure), 0.43g BBs hold their energy for far longer than the rest so will go further. Ignore yellow as it's an 8mm BB so air resistance screws it over.

[Sacarathe]

.20 are used because this is the lowest weight most of us use so indicates the max power the weapon will shoot at.

 

I always assumed it's because of the neat convergence of 0.2 gram with 100m/s and 1 joule - over in metric land (Japan).

 

EDIT: So, it doesn't show replies while you're typing if you're on another page.

[K@rl]

Sure with a .20g it might not, but when you're shooting that same muzzle energy with heavier weights their energy degrades much slower. This is why a lot of people thing those using heavier weights are cheating because it carries that energy for longer and hits harder at longer ranges than a lighter BB that had the same energy leaving the barrel.

 

There are a few nuances here it would be unfair to ask people to understand, but one thing is for sure: Joule creep does exist and the current way of crono'ing doesn't allow for it. If I were shooting 400fps instead of 350fps would you be annoyed? I sure would.

 

Eye protection is rated much higher that anything we use, but fair point. Thing is, measuring muzzle energy rather than fps goes a way to mitigating hot guns better than anything we have now. There is the issue of energy conservation from heavier weights, but you're never going to solve that through any way other than banning heavy weights (which some CQB sites do).

Yes but muzzle energy is determined by the gun not the weight of bb. For every action there is an equil and opposit reaction. To bring it back to my point. Using a heavier Bb to get under 350fps means u have an increase energy.

I know y people use them again not my point.

[proffrink]

You need to go back and read what I've typed as I think wires are significantly crossed here. You are not at all disagreeing with me - I am, as I said, not talking about 'crono cheating'. We are talking about how to stop Joule creep.

 

I'm also not sure where Newtons third law comes into this?

[Sacarathe]

Yes but muzzle energy is determined by the gun not the weight of bb.

 

But that was proffrink's point, the heavier BB is in the barrel longer.

 

Yes but muzzle energy is determined by the gun not the weight of bb. For every action there is an equil and opposit reaction. To bring it back to my point. Using a heavier Bb to get under 350fps means u have an increase energy.

I know y people use them again not my point.

 

Increase? No, not in the context of what you've said here.

More? Yes.

 

I suggest you stop saying FPS/Velocity and switch to "power" - makes things a lot less confusing And you don't have to use units.

[K@rl]

I know but I wasn't talking about that I was talking about cheats. And yes I ment more 😏

However think my point is founded.

 

POWER 🚗 Top gear style

[Dannn]

We're well off topic now but that's a player problem not a rules problem. Having a joule chart for all of the popular weights (or even ALL weights of BB) attached to the site chrono isn't a massive ask, if a player is thought to be attempting to cheat the system they could be asked to have ten of their BBs weighed before loading them into the magazine for chrono, although I agree that is a little heavy handed.

 

If someone wishes to cheat chrono, it's REALLY easy to do so.

You don't even need to use heavier ammo to cheat the crono... You can use .20's and still get way lower results if you know how to.

If someone's adimant they want to cheat they can

[K@rl]

You don't even need to use heavier ammo to cheat the crono... You can use .20's and still get way lower results if you know how to.

If someone's adimant they want to cheat they can

 

Hop?

[proffrink]

I know but I wasn't talking about that I was talking about cheats. And yes I ment more

However think my point is founded.

 

POWER Top gear style

Hm, alright. This is GCSE-level physics though man - there are unfortunately no opinions.

 

 

You don't even need to use heavier ammo to cheat the crono... You can use .20's and still get way lower results if you know how to.

If someone's adimant they want to cheat they can

Beyond hop I don't see how you'd do this. Suppressor maybe as discussed in the other thread? This is less about purposeful cheating and more about unconscious Joule creep, but I think you got that

[K@rl]

Firstly I would like to make it clear I would never "cheat" the chrono. No need. It's rear for me to engage at over 30meters. Due to site.

However could somthin be added To the barrel/silencer to slow bb. Then removed.

[K@rl]

Also thank you proffink. Stopped me being board during xfactor. Lol

[Sacarathe]

Firstly I would like to make it clear I would never "cheat" the chrono. No need. It's rear for me to engage at over 30meters. Due to site.

However could somthin be added To the barrel/silencer to slow bb. Then removed.

 

Wouldnt worry about it, starting chrono is only a deterant to lazy cheats, kind of like how locking your house only stops the honest.

 

Its the spot chronograph checks which hold the real weight - of course they also don't matter without the baseline which the starting chrono provides.

[mimozine]

thank for the input guys, alot to digest.

 

another question you guys should be able to answer. now as i understand it snipers are alowed to be about 500fps max, and i think that is close to the actual legal limit from what i've read (2.5 joules of energy). now i was looking at a king arms blaser rifle, i like the look of it, they recon about 430-450 fps out of the box. so i was looking at upgrade springs etc available. a m170 spring was rated to 550fps and the m180 spring to 600fps. WTF? how is that? and how could i uprade a blaser to about the 500 mark?

[proffrink]

Short answer: Don't. Sniper rifles are made to certain tolerances and upgrading just one part of the whole propulsion system is going to have a knock-on effect. The sears and spring guide need upgrading too if you're putting a new spring in.

 

Really I'd say don't worry all that much. Your hop and barrel has far more to do with range (as discussed in this thread) with a stock gun than the speed at which it leaves the barrel. Get those right first and then work on upgrading your power source.

 

You'll get good range out of 450fps so long as everything is set up correctly.

[jcheeseright]

there is no legal limit (well, 12ft/lbs... but you will NEVER build an airsoft gun that can get there), anything you've read is a recommendation by ACPO and not defined by actual law.

[K@rl]

I agree with prof; barrel, hop etc will make a greater difference to range.

[mimozine]

what sort of barrel would you put on a blaser r93 then? and how difficult are we talking? i take it hop unit will be easiest to do at same time?

[K@rl]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CqISdXdCA

 

If u can't find the length of barrel in handbook or on line, take the old one out and measure it. Providing you want the same length of barrel (ie u don't want to extend it into a mock silence) u should be able to just but one the same length but with a tighter bore. How tight is upto u and dependent on how good the ammo that u use is.

[Dannn]

there is no legal limit (well, 12ft/lbs... but you will NEVER build an airsoft gun that can get there), anything you've read is a recommendation by ACPO and not defined by actual law.

With .43 it would need to be running at 899 fps to be 12ftlbs

[dex]

My issue with hot guns isn't the increased distance it the risk to eye pro especially if it's a "reaction shot" at close range.

 

 

If your eye pro cant take a 500fps sniper hit at close range, your wearing the wrong eye pro.

[mimozine]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CqISdXdCA

 

If u can't find the length of barrel in handbook or on line, take the old one out and measure it. Providing you want the same length of barrel (ie u don't want to extend it into a mock silence) u should be able to just but one the same length but with a tighter bore. How tight is upto u and dependent on how good the ammo that u use is.

helpfull video thx matey, looks easy to dissasemble, and therefor change the barrel. are hop rubbers easy to replace?

[K@rl]

 

If your eye pro cant take a 500fps sniper hit at close range, your wearing the wrong eye pro.

.

 

U missed the point, by cheating it's possible for someone to be well above 500fps. And it's not that the eye pro own take it but that the bb will shatter and I wear mesh.

[K@rl]

helpfull video thx matey, looks easy to dissasemble, and therefor change the barrel. are hop rubbers easy to replace?

Simple answer is yes but might want to think about a better hop unit aswell.

[Sacarathe]

U missed the point, by cheating it's possible for someone to be well above 500fps. And it's not that the eye pro own take it but that the bb will shatter and I wear mesh.

 

And if it shatters?