M4 high torque motor

[n1ckh]

After today's Halloween skirmish (26/10) i want to upgrade my motor to a high torque for better ROF

 

I need it for a G&G cm16 raider (the CQB version) and im assuming its the long shaft motor, budget is up to £50

 

Nick

[Sitting Duck]

http://www.tinywind.com/dragon-m160-high-speed-high-torque-motor-long-type-p-2359.html

 

http://www.tinywind.com/dragon-m140-high-torque-motor-long-type-p-459.html

 

http://www.tinywind.com/dragon-m120-high-speed-motor-long-type-p-458.html

 

either should do the trick at a good price if you can wait for the free shipping

(add a few bucks for insured shipping)

 

or may get a SHS high torque long type off ebay for about £30

[n1ckh]

Cheers duck, I'll check ebay

[Ian_Gere]

High torque motors are not for high speed, they are for high... er... torque. High speed motors are for high... you've guessed it

 

You can use a high torque motor in combination with high speed gears, with a low ratio 13:1 - these make it more difficult for the motor to pull the spring, so a high torque motor overcomes that problem and the gear ratio reduces the cycle time of the gearbox. Depending on which high speed motor you go for, the can be considerably more torque-y than stock motors also, so you could also get 16:1 gears...

 

But simply putting a high torque motor onto your gb in place of the stock motor will not increase your ROF (unless it was utterly shit to begin with) and may even reduce it.

[n1ckh]

Ok, so the other choice I have is to go with a different battery

 

Either lipos or 8.4 - 9.6v nimhs

 

Its just today I was able to hold my own but want to increase ROF on full auto

[Sitting Duck]

ahhhh - well you could get say 9.9v life battery - that should give you a bit more kick

what battery are you using atm ???

 

high torque would need decent battery for it to work effectively too

 

plus there is a slight problem with very high torque/speed motors on 90/100 springs

think if going too nutz people have had to drop in 120 & short stroke if problems occur

 

upgrades like many things - you can find after putting in a bigger engine in car

brakes, suspension etc need upgrading too

 

but a motor with more oooommmppphhhhh could at least handle higher volts a bit more

(question is can g/box take it if you really go nutz)

 

Again finally like most upgrades - where do start & where do you stop ???

but think a motor wouldn't be very unwise & G&G should be able to take a little more bashing

avoid a higher speed one or a mental m160 mofo high torque

see what you get on 9.6v or 9.9v life before you think of going down 11.1v lipo route

the clever techy's can get great rof with 7.4 lipo's - all I get atm is g/box frustration

 

btw when I say avoid a high speed - one of our G&G's need a bit of attention after installing

a SHS high speed on it - nothing major but ironic first skirmish with new hi speed and she

didn't seem to like it - poor lass

(Boy did she fire like F**k though)

[straffham]

You could try a SHS or ZCI high speed motor, drop Pete "AK2M4" a line on this forum, may give you a discount too, thoroughly recommend his service.

Just bare in mind any increase in ROF will increase wear and tear whether by bigger battery or faster motor.

[n1ckh]

As I come from racing rc cars and boats background

 

I understand about the needs of upgrading, I've been looking at an M120 motor, start low and see how that goes

 

ATM I'm using 7.2v, 4600mah nimhs and 7.4v 5000 lipos

[Sitting Duck]

yup I am inclined to agree with slow steady steps

 

120 motor or 9.9v life - go too nutz and - well you know the score

 

most peeps think between 15 to 20 is enough for ROF but others

may want 25-30 - jeez c'mon guys thought I was trigger happy at times

 

could try both more volts n slight more torque motor

life's tend to output what they are - others nmah & lipo's often will be

pushing about 12-15% above their stated value when just come off charge

(11.1v lipo = 12.5V+ or 7.4v lipo = 8.4v+ after charging)

 

we tend to run 8.4 or 9.6v old skool or 9.9v life's (got 11.1v's but choose not use 'em)

[Unrustle_Thine_Jimmies]

Hand warmer motors have sort of lost their place nowadays since we have high speed ratio gears and neodymium magnets pretty much in most motors.

 

SHS High torque motor is 16TPA. Offers a very good balance of the efficiency of a torque motor while the crazy strong magnets allow it to still have a good speed. Paired with 13:1 sets you can get 30 RPS with the right tuning. Also known as the ZCI balanced motor.

 

ZCI High torque is a big beast. 22TPA. It's slow,but offer fantastic trigger response with High ratio gears and a good battery.

 

Those are my go-to brands really. No big difference in quality between the two since they're both made in the same factory.

 

G&P M120s are not bad motors but pretty outdated and you can have much much better motors for the price. The above two cost 30~ ish pounds on ak2m4.

 

Paired with a good battery,these can give a nice ROF boost. You seem to be already sorted,7.4v 5000mah lipo is fairly good,especially so if it's 20c or more. I personally use(d) 9.9v LiFE batteries from Hobbyking,I think it was an 2100mah 40c one.

 

Do note that it's generally recommended to reshim your gun with a new motor,there's this misconception from Yank retailer Youtube videos that motors are a drop in upgrade

[n1ckh]

Tbh duck, I dont want to go mental

 

The real M4's dont have a huge ROF even on full auto

 

I'll be happy to get an increase of about 15%

 

On the chrono today, I think i was putting out about 16 rounds per second (I could be wrong if that's not RPS of a standard M4)

 

I'm happy to stick with the batterys I have (so I don't need to buy more) so a slight increase on the motor would be a place to start

 

GB is already re-shimmed Jimmies, I took it apart (after watching videos) and regreaed aswell, that did help a bit

 

My lipos are all minimum of 35C, I dont use low MAH batts in any of my cars or boats

[Ian_Gere]

For what you're after, the SHS high speed motor would be a decent drop in to what you already have then.

 

BTW, have you upgraded the wiring to 16AWG and soldered the motor contacts? You'll get a couple of RPS out of that straight off and, what's better, a faster trigger response.

 

2nd edit: and at least 0.5RPS out of Deans connectors.

 

3rd edit: and may as well get a £20 AB MOSFET while you're at it (search fleabay).

 

4th edit: bolded SPEED

[joshcowin]

i bet deans connector would help quite a bit aswell compared to tamiya

[Sitting Duck]

sounds good to me - most good budget guns are 15ish out of box

a small tweak to get a bit near 20 is fine for me too

but this starting figure depends on battery you started to use in first place

 

super duper rof & 349.9999fps is a must have at any cost for some

then think they need to concentrate on trying to improve their own

skill & accuracy first before demanding their gun is maxed out to limits

(all the above means jack if hop is crap & all over place but we talking rof post)

 

reckon you got the right approach and sure you should a little improvement

plus your higher torque motor should run a little cooler under stress or letting rip

[joshcowin]

theirs a good rof then theirs the idiot who pump out 70 rps on dual sectors pistons with teeth removed etc,but stripping piston after piston is a waste of money,time and bbs seeing as only one bb is all it needs to hit someone,i would rather spend my money on a better airseal and accuracy any day over rof

[Ian_Gere]

TBH I'd tend to agree, Josh, but i love fast trigger response and high ROF comes with it unless you get an expensive MOSFET (I'm still not willing to commit to KK BW2...)

[n1ckh]

This was my 2nd skirmish, most of the time i was using semi and using full auto for supressive fire so my team mates could tab (Tactical Advance to Battle) closer to the enemy

 

Yes Ian, I have rewired with 16awg and used my nimhs and lipos from the start and using deans for my nimhs

and gold bullet connectors for my lipos, a faster trigger response would be great aswell

 

Funny enough, I had 7 blokes go full auto on me within 20ft of my position and I was screaming "hit" with both hands in the air

[Ian_Gere]

Overkill is part and parcel of the sport, I'm afraid. When you've got used to people blatantly not taking their hits, you'll know why Also, as you know, when you fire full-auto, there could easily be 10 BB's already in flight when you release the trigger in response to someone raising their hand and shouting "hit!"

 

I always think it's worth swearing vociferously if people shoot you when your hand is up and you're walking away. It may not be the most gentlemanly behaviour but it makes me feel better and there's a chance that it gets through the adrenalin haze better than a marshal in the safe zone calmly explaining that nobody likes being shot when they've given up.

 

This is the MOSFET i mentioned - well worth the money.

[n1ckh]

Oh I certainly let them know how pissed I was but I understand what your saying Ian, I admit I'm guilty of it but most of the time its because they dont take there hits

 

I've been looking at those types but was thinking of getting the nano (I think that's there name) plug n play MOSFET

[Ian_Gere]

Plug'n'play MOSFET's are almost a waste of time. The whole point is to avoid the high resistance of the trigger switch - the command wire approach, where a command voltage opens the electronic switch instantly, allowing power to run directly from battery to motor along fat wire through soldered connections is the way forward. Of course it requires a little more work to fit and, if you compromise the insulation, you may short out the FET and cook it dead, but the results are worth it, and you've got the skills needed.

 

Gate Electronics Pico AB are good and the non active breaking Pico also (SSR iirc). I recommend AB because if you do decide that 11.1V is the way forward eventually, that voltage can make guns fire full-auto even though semi is selected; active breaking prevents this fault. It also makes the gb end its cycle with the spring in its most extended position, which is good for the longevity of the spring and the gb in general.

[n1ckh]

I think at this rate ian, I'll just buy what I need and send it to you for it to be upgraded lol

 

I was watching YouTube videos about the mosfets and have decided I'll get one

 

My M4 is the test platform before I upgrade my boys M4's

[Ian_Gere]

Top tip: use a piece of the original wiring loom as the command wire - the insulation on them tends to be very hardwearing. Any old poxy wire will do, but I've cooked 2 due to shorts and it's not like i'm clueless.

[n1ckh]

Thanks ian

 

I always use heat shrink on soldered wire joints

 

Glad I'm not the only one who still messes up every now and then lol