UKARA Alternative

[Deva]

Makes sense now, I hadn't understood your first explanation. But yeah that could work.

[Southdown Airsoft]

Just to throw my hat in the ring, As a site owner who is UKARA registered I'm not sure the admin is dissimilar to what is proposed by Luther so perhaps not the strongest selling point to sites (although I'm sure not the same for retailers), having said that, a digitalised sign in is a great selling point! I was contacted by BAC two days ago and to be honest this sounds like a much more appealing option to that! If you can deliver the product you are proposing on a user friendly platform (which it sounds like you can) you could count us in. Also do get in touch with sites including us about funding, if you are providing a good service or trying to make ours and our players lives easier we would like to help.

[Southdown Airsoft]

In the time it took me to write my post on the phone you've gone from cards to full digitalisation or even QR patches ... Great idea

[jcheeseright]

Ah, I should point out at this point that I'm in no way involved in the development of Project Luther and was just suggesting a way of cutting the initial cost while streamlining the joining procedure. As far as I know the plan is still cards and traditional barcodes!

 

Only potential sticking point I can see with the fully digital sign in is insurance waivers, I expect insurance companies will still want nice easy to produce in court signatures on a bit of paper. That said, I'm no expert, I'm just a massive pessimist when it comes to insurance companies.

[Ian_Gere]

A big positive of Luther imo is that it is proposed that ordinary users could check the skirmisher status of other people for the sale of 2nd hand guns. So the consumer app will need that ability.

[jcheeseright]

good point, could have that functionality just on the web version though, potentially for both player and user versions. Would save on development time.

[Mike636]

Just to check, are you SURE that's the case?

I was hungover and doing a poo at the time so I may of not been at my best but when we initially contacted the Police and appropriate Gov we were told that there was no wriggle with how many games are required to establish a defence but I'll check just for you

[fivezerothree]

Hey guys thanks for all the feedback!

The one thing I will not shortlist as a possibility unfortunately, is QR codes. It's a failed system, a gimmick in my personal opinion and experience. And never, ever reliable. Relying on someones camera phone is not acceptable. The actual time it takes to register and read the QR code is also a factor. Unless the lighting is perfect and the angle correct it takes longer.

Reading a barcode with a laser is a different ball game and a super quick, reliable one. We were initially going to use NFC/RFID tech but people felt alienated by it because, well, I can only assume they don't understand it. However it is by far the best.

 

We will introduce alternate, multiple ways of automated attendance registering in the very near future.

The attendance recording part also has to be done by a member of the site's staff to ensure that's its a genuine attendance, all other methods leave gaping holes.

In terms of Raspberry PIs – we looked into it and cheaper smaller kit but it would work out too damn expensive in total.

So far we think the best method is to look into getting sites and retailer to endorse and truly champion this system whilst we tweak it to be more flexible to their needs. We aren't simply creating an alternative but an alternative that closes gaping holes and tightens security. It's also a great resource and can hopefully at once point be used as a skirmish diary.

All the records will be available to everyone who needs them in differing quantities and levels. If a retailer wants to know their eligibility and address and last recorded skirmish dates then they can. If a user wishes to check another users defence they can do (of course with limits, you can't just look up people on a whim). If a site wants to export its sites attendance records for the last three months, it can! We are creating an all in one solution that all parties can benefit from. Once we get to a nice, usable beta we will start rolling it out to sites and retailers.

Which brings me nicely to pre-member enrollment investment. I will go into further discussion with interested parties but we estimate a £500 investment would get this off teh ground and buy demo kit and the initial batch of membership cards. Sites who wish to fully automate their admin work and just click 'upload' would need to invest in a little bit of tech which would cost around £100.

While we initially wanted to provide this equipment, the system has changed considerably since the first proposal and £100 per site is simply not feasible for us. However we know this small investment would pay itself back pretty quickly.

So yeah, the quicker we get this off the ground the better and we can start whizzing round to sites and retailers showing them how easy it can all be.

No more admin work and automatic defence for players. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[Longshot]

^ I only ask because my understanding is that there was a law made (VCRA 2006) that effectively made selling RIFs completely illegal. The air soft community, led by the retailers whose businesses were at stake, then argued that selling RIFs should have some form of defence against prosecution. This was then granted in the Commencement to the Act number 3, which says:

 

"The regulations provide for two new defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to “permitted activities” and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities."

 

Part of the reason for this being granted was that the leading retailers formed as the UKARA and told the Home Office that they make most of the sales and that they would be coming up with a way to ensure they had their defence covered. This is just written into the Commencement as:

 

"For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

- new players must play at least three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership

- membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers

- a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details

- a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months."

 

That, to my knowledge, is the only place that mentions he 3 games/2 months rule, and it's just a description of what UKARA proposed they would do (then proceeded not to fully do), not a legal requirement.

[CaptainSwoop]

Sounds good.

I don't see why it can't just use a Phone App as well as a dedicated barcode scanner.

Phone Apps are more useful 'in the field'

As well as the cost of cards, readers and software development you have to factor in the cost of your database hosting and bandwidth.

Someone is going to have to spec and supply a server and it's connection.

A 'standard' PC won't be enough. You will need either hosting or a proper server. Raided and backed up.

[fivezerothree]

^ I only ask because my understanding is that there was a law made (VCRA 2006) that effectively made selling RIFs completely illegal. The air soft community, led by the retailers whose businesses were at stake, then argued that selling RIFs should have some form of defence against prosecution. This was then granted in the Commencement to the Act number 3, which says:

 

"The regulations provide for two new defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to “permitted activities” and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities."

 

Part of the reason for this being granted was that the leading retailers formed as the UKARA and told the Home Office that they make most of the sales and that they would be coming up with a way to ensure they had their defence covered. This is just written into the Commencement as:

 

"For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

- new players must play at least three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership

- membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers

- a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details

- a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months."

 

That, to my knowledge, is the only place that mentions he 3 games/2 months rule, and it's just a description of what UKARA proposed they would do (then proceeded not to fully do), not a legal requirement.

Cool. I've always said 'recommendation' and I agree with it too, as do most others – lets not derail here!

[Longshot]

Cool. I've always said 'recommendation' and I agree with it too, as do most others – lets not derail here!

But Luther are looking to take that 'recommendation' and turn it into a necessity for their scheme.

 

UKARA made it a necessity to join their database (though they seemed to ditch some of the other requirements they came up with for the Home Office) so I'm wondering why Luther are just taking on the same requirement as UKARA without (seemingly) any need to.

[fivezerothree]

Sounds good.

I don't see why it can't just use a Phone App as well as a dedicated barcode scanner.

Phone Apps are more useful 'in the field'

As well as the cost of cards, readers and software development you have to factor in the cost of your database hosting and bandwidth.

Someone is going to have to spec and supply a server and it's connection.

A 'standard' PC won't be enough. You will need either hosting or a proper server. Raided and backed up.

If I had a penny for everytime people underestimated the team!!!

We do this stuff for a day job so we know what's best Swoop, we're not using someone's PC for christs sakes! I will get Dave to talk about server tech, if you like – you'll regret it!

 

Everyone is banging on about how useful a phone application will be but forgetting about downfalls. An 'app' is not the way forward, not for a system as complex as this. Using the camera on a phone like that is also a huge battery drain.

However they can use a spreadsheet application and use a barcode scanner in tandem which will work beautifully. All's you need do is upload the spreadsheet and done. A camera is not an efficient method of recording/interpreting data quickly, otherwise they'd be using them at the likes of Tesco would they not?

Signal strength is also an issue as it's guaranteed.. However as I mentioned above the spreadsheet plus the bluetooth barcode scanner will work perfectly.

[fivezerothree]

But Luther are looking to take that 'recommendation' and turn it into a necessity for their scheme.

 

UKARA made it a necessity to join their database (though they seemed to ditch some of the other requirements they came up with for the Home Office) so I'm wondering why Luther are just taking on the same requirement as UKARA without (seemingly) any need to.

You've got this all a little twisted buddy.

 

It's a good recommendation. It tests authenticity of new Airsoft players – more so than without it.

 

We will use it because it's responsible, unless you can think of something better.

[jcheeseright]

Hey guys thanks for all the feedback!

 

The one thing I will not shortlist as a possibility unfortunately, is QR codes. It's a failed system, a gimmick in my personal opinion and experience. And never, ever reliable. Relying on someones camera phone is not acceptable. The actual time it takes to register and read the QR code is also a factor. Unless the lighting is perfect and the angle correct it takes longer.

 

I think you've been doing it wrong, or scanning massive codes with hundreds of characters in them. I've scanned QR codes in bright sunlight, dirty engine rooms with oil smeared all over them, in the dark using a key fob torch. Have done it with a variety of devices too, there's a reason the military have replaced normal bar codes with QR codes so quickly to document the location of sensitive items (like weapons), it's because they're more reliable and can contain more information.

[fivezerothree]

I think you've been doing it wrong, or scanning massive codes with hundreds of characters in them. I've scanned QR codes in bright sunlight, dirty engine rooms with oil smeared all over them, in the dark using a key fob torch. Have done it with a variety of devices too, there's a reason the military have replaced normal bar codes with QR codes so quickly to document the location of sensitive items (like weapons), it's because they're more reliable and can contain more information.

 

Doing it wrong? lol Perhaps its the QR code being data intensive, yeah.

 

It's still the wrong way round though. Sites scan, players stand there. There's no current advantage to switching to QR codes as the tech to read barcodes is currently more efficient – speed is key and not something achieved with a QR code reader on a phone.

 

QR codes might be more applicable for the military to mess around with in their situation, but I don't see the point in spending more time creating an app that reads QR codes when it's simply not needed.

 

Askyourself, why do supermarkets not use QR codes instead of barcodes?

[CaptainSwoop]

 

If I had a penny for everytime people underestimated the team!!!

 

We do this stuff for a day job so we know what's best Swoop, we're not using someone's PC for christs sakes! I will get Dave to talk about server tech, if you like – you'll regret it!

 

Everyone is banging on about how useful a phone application will be but forgetting about downfalls. An 'app' is not the way forward, not for a system as complex as this. Using the camera on a phone like that is also a huge battery drain.

 

However they can use a spreadsheet application and use a barcode scanner in tandem which will work beautifully. All's you need do is upload the spreadsheet and done. A camera is not an efficient method of recording/interpreting data quickly, otherwise they'd be using them at the likes of Tesco would they not?

 

Signal strength is also an issue as it's guaranteed.. However as I mentioned above the spreadsheet plus the bluetooth barcode scanner will work perfectly.

 

 

I don't underestimate your team as I know nothing about them.. I do know servers and infrastructure though.

You will have estimates of the peak load you are going to get on a Saturday and Sunday evening when all the Skirmish sites start uploading their dat+a at the end of the day?

[fivezerothree]

I don't underestimate your team as I know nothing about them.. I do know servers and infrastructure though.

You will have estimates of the peak load you are going to get on a Saturday and Sunday evening when all the Skirmish sites start uploading their dat+a at the end of the day?

Estimates at this point? Nah. With the utmost of respect, this actually isn't an issue or something that can be improved upon so I'm not sure where this is going.. :/

 

Fifty sites uploading a 12 kb spreadsheet at the same time won't be an issue. The database updates will be queued.

[typefish]

Sounds good.

I don't see why it can't just use a Phone App as well as a dedicated barcode scanner.

Phone Apps are more useful 'in the field'

As well as the cost of cards, readers and software development you have to factor in the cost of your database hosting and bandwidth.

Someone is going to have to spec and supply a server and it's connection.

A 'standard' PC won't be enough. You will need either hosting or a proper server. Raided and backed up.

 

I was going to explain to you what I can get server wise in the UK, but since you said in a later post that you already know about servers and infrastructure, I'm looking at about 300 completed requests per second for data push via AB. It's quite easy to do if nginx/php-fpm/mysql is set up correct and the code is streamlined!

 

(That's what I'm attempting for data push via an API though - excel import would be slightly different, and as fivezerothree has correctly stated, this will be queued )

[Ian_Gere]

It's a rare thing when I agree with Longshot, but ring the bells and blow the whistles, today is that day! I don't have to invent an alternative to the internal combustion engine to be correct when I say it is crap at turning chemical energy into velocity. I hope everyone understands that, in the same way, I don't have to come up with an alternative to the 3 skirmishes in not less than 2 months for my point to have merit when I say that it is crap both for the purposes the VCRA is intended to address and, in light of that, an irritating hoop we have to jump through in order to enjoy a perfectly legal activity.

 

My understanding of the way these things work leads me to believe that hanging on to stuff intended to satisfy the VCRA which are not even legal requirements lends the Act credibility. Instead the airsoft community ought to be distancing ourselves from the Act and its baby, UKARA.

[Mike636]

What he said ^

[Longshot]

You've got this all a little twisted buddy.

It's a good recommendation. It tests authenticity of new Airsoft players – more so than without it.

We will use it because it's responsible, unless you can think of something better.

Could you point out what I've got 'twisted?'

 

UKARA came up with a requirement to join their database (3 games in over 2 months), which is not a legal requirement for anything, and your organisation is just copying the same game and timeframe limits.

[Longshot]

It's a rare thing when I agree with Longshot...

That's because you're a nice, understanding person in real life and on the Internet, whereas I'm a nice, understanding person in real life and a dick on the Internet.

[Ian_Gere]

No, I'm an offensive arse irl. I find it easier to consider what i intend the reader to understand from what i say online.

 

See, told ya we don't agree folks!

[jcheeseright]

Askyourself, why do supermarkets not use QR codes instead of barcodes?

Oh that one's easy; cost.

 

I really want this project to succeed and be a viable alternative to UKARA, but at the moment if I were a site owner I'd be failing to see the real tangible benefit to my business. £100 isn't much money I agree, but some sites are so cheap they use bin bags for team arm bands (sadly not a joke).

UKARA as a scheme has pitched everything at exactly the right level for sites; stamp a form and let a retailer worry about the admin. Most places I have played at file their waivers by attendance day and never do anything with them, many others just have a book which players sign to record their attendance.

 

I expect in order for the home office to get on board and accept it as a defence you'll need a LARGE amount of players, retailers and sites signed up and actively participating. For that level of market penetration to happen I honestly believe you need to offer significant benefits above and beyond it being cheaper for retailers and more flexible for players. A lot of sites make money on memberships too, this will be taking that money away from them and you're asking to charge £100 for the privelidge.