Are co2 guns classed as airguns?

[M_P]

Simply are they classed as air guns or not. Someone on fb said so and I've not seen it explicitly stated before I always thought it was anything over 500fps was an air gun. He may be right, I'd just like some clarification.

I don't see why it should matter what the power source is?

[sp00n]

i always thought it was based upon the projectile??

 

i would say no.

 

edit ;- rather than make a new post after reading richards post, i would say its :- Projectile, then projectile kinetic energy = rating (air rifle/airsoft) and legality

[Richard65]

The Crown prosecution website - http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a033 has a definition which is difficult to understand but included the following:-

 

An air weapon is defined, under section 1(3)( and 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 as:

"an air rifle, air gun or air pistol which does not

fall within section 5 (1) (a) and which is not of a type declared by

rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the Firearms

Act to be specially dangerous".

Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses or is
designed or adapted for use with, a self contained gas cartridge system
is a prohibited weapon: section 5(1)(af) Firearms Act 1968 e.g. a
Brocock

An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of
discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from
the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a
pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air
pistol, 12 ft lbs: Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 rr. 2, 3 (Archbold 24-8a.)

Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard
self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as
outside the scope of the Firearms Act, unless they are sufficiently
powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms.

Unless an air weapon falls within one of the above exceptions, it is not subject to section 1 Firearms Act 1968.

 

 

 

 

[ScoobySnacks]

An airgun is defined as a firearm. The definition in law of a firearm is a "lethal, barreled weapon".

 

In practice the muzzle energy required for a gun to be classed as "lethal" (and therefore a firearm rather than in imitation firearm) is around the 1.5 joule mark, though that's not set down in law anywhere. Certainly anything below 1 joule is not a firearm, and anything over 2 is pretty much guaranteed to be classed as a firearm. The area in between is very much a grey area. One of the big issues is that anything that is classed as a firearm, and is capable of firing fully automatic, is a section 5 weapon which it is illegal to possess without special dispensation from the secretary of state, so anything getting into the higher energy levels for airsoft could be a risky legally.

[Richard65]

Found this definition on an airgun forum which might help a bit. There again, it may only add to the confusion!!

 

Airguns in the UK are subject to the firearms acts, under the
Firearms (Dangerous air weapons) rules 1969 they are classified as low
powered Air Weapons and as such they are restricted to a maximum power
of 12 foot pounds energy for a rifle and 6 foot pounds energy for a
pistol. Air rifles above 12ft/lbs are classified as a Section 1 Firearm
and requires a licence (FAC) otherwise known as a firearms certificate,
and an Air pistol above 6ftlb is a prohibited weapon.



UK Legal Limit

To calculate the power of an airgun you need to use a chronograph to
measure the speed of the pellet (in feet per second) when fired, and you
need to know the weight of the pellet in grains. Once you have that
information you perform the following calculation:- speed(ft/sec) X
speed(ft/sec) X weight(grains) /450240

This gives you the result in foot pounds force (ftlb).

As mentioned the legal maximum for an unlicensed air rifle is 12 ftlb
which from changing round the above formula, gives the approximate
values as follows:-

A .22 pellet weighing 14.4 grains, maximum permissible speed is 612 ft/sec

A .177 pellet weighing 7.9 grains, maximum permissible speed is 826 ft/sec

The corresponding figures for a pistol are 433 ft/sec for a .22 and 584 ft/sec for a .177

The pellet weights used in the above calculation are typical weights for
the sizes of pellet but you must always check the actual weight of your
pellet before performing your own calculation.

 

Exceptions:

1) It is not an offence for a person to have with him an airgun or
ammunition whilst being a member of a Home Office Approved Club in
connection with target practice.

2) Air rifles with a muzzle energy in excess of 12 foot pounds (which
require licensing) are not subject to the general restrictions listed
above.

3) An "airgun" with the kinetic energy of less than one joule is
considered a toy and is therefore not covered by the above restrictions
but may be considered a realistic imitation firearm (if it looks like a
gun). The sale of realistic imitation firearms is now banned with one or
two minor exceptions, mainly for historical re-enactment, museums and
television/film/theatrical performances or as a recognized member of an
airsoft site affiliated to the Association of British AirSoft.

[Airsoft-Ed]

"The Association of British AirSoft"

...What's that then? Lol.

 

Making up stuff, tut tut. Kiss goodbye to your credence on that front, airgun forum!

[SheriffHD]

An airgun is defined as a firearm. The definition in law of a firearm is a "lethal, barreled weapon".

 

In practice the muzzle energy required for a gun to be classed as "lethal" (and therefore a firearm rather than in imitation firearm) is around the 1.5 joule mark, though that's not set down in law anywhere. Certainly anything below 1 joule is not a firearm, and anything over 2 is pretty much guaranteed to be classed as a firearm. The area in between is very much a grey area. One of the big issues is that anything that is classed as a firearm, and is capable of firing fully automatic, is a section 5 weapon which it is illegal to possess without special dispensation from the secretary of state, so anything getting into the higher energy levels for airsoft could be a risky legally.

noticed right away that those figures are too low. simply because a paintball hits at 11.5j/8.6ft/lbs so anything under 12ft/lbs is legal. unless it falls under RIF

[Richard65]

Did a google search for more information but everyone I looked at quotes the same - 12 ft/lb for a rifle and 6 ft/lb for a pistol as the maximum power and then the 1 joule lower limit as being outside the airgun definition but these may then be considered RIFs or Ifs.

 

Then looked at joules to fps conversions and found a couple that covered bbs - these showed that for a 0.20 bb an fps of 329 would equal 1 joule.(328,94 fpos if you wanyt to be pedantic!).At 360 fps for 0.20 bbs the joules figure is 1.2 and at 500 fps it rises to 2.31 joules. Does this mean that sniper rifles are classified as air guns?

 

Going back to the original post it would appear that a co2 gun could be classified as an air gun or not depending on the fps and type of pellets used. With bbs you could have a higher fps than you could using .177 or .22 airgun metal pellets.

 

A good debate subject for any budding lawyers out there, especially with ragards to the rules on storing airguns if anyone under 18 could have access to them:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/crime-and-security-act-2010-commencement-no-2-order-2011-air-weapons

[sp00n]

FYI 12lbf = 16.269599999999997j

[M_P]

"The Association of British AirSoft"

...What's that then? Lol.

 

Making up stuff, tut tut. Kiss goodbye to your credence on that front, airgun forum!

Aoba, I take it you've nit heard of them? Not surprising though, I've not seen or heard anything from or about them for years.

I think they were meant to be a bit like UKAPU, but similarly don't do anything and haven't been heard if by most people.

[ScoobySnacks]

noticed right away that those figures are too low. simply because a paintball hits at 11.5j/8.6ft/lbs so anything under 12ft/lbs is legal. unless it falls under RIF

Yes, as someone quoted above, anything under 12 ft.lb is classed as a "low powered air gun".

 

Your paintball gun, running at 11.5 ft.lb certainly classes as a firearm. As such it must not be capable of firing fully automatic, as that would make it a section 5 firearm.

 

The latest information I can find on permitted power levels states that anything firing with a muzzle energy less than 1 ft.lb is incapable of causing more than "trivial injury" and so is not classed as a firearm (remember, "lethal barreled weapon")

 

However, as far as I've been able to ascertain, this dates back from a report by the Home Affairs select committee in 2000 (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9504.htm#n51) and I can't see any legal precedent where this has been tested in court.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to when you say "those figures are too low".

 

An airsoft weapon, which fires with a muzzle energy of less than 1 ft.lb (approximately 1.35 joules) which equates to about 370fps with a .20g BB, is classed as a toy, and can be sold without restriction to those over the age of 18, except where it is a realistic imitation firearm where the sale is illegal unless the seller can show they had good reason to be satisfied that the buyer was a member of one of the groups set out in the VCRA.

 

Any weapon which fires above this level is likely to be classed as a firearm. However as a "firearm" it will be classed as a "low powered air weapon" as long as the muzzle energy cannot exceed 12 ft.lb. (6ft.lb for a pistol) This would require a muzzle velocity of around 1300 fps with a .20g bb.

 

Any firearm that can discharge more than one shot without a repeated press of the trigger (i.e. fully automatic) is classed as a section 5 firearm according to the firearms act(s) and is therefore prohibited.

 

A CO2 pistol, firing a .2g BB at 500fps will certainly be classed as a weapon, and therefore an airgun rather than an airsoft gun.

 

It is interesting to note that air guns do not come under the restrictions of the VCRA, as they are classed as firearms and so cannot be classed as imitation firearms.

[sp00n]

Lets not forget that a air rifle pellet weighing 15gr actually weighs around 1 gramm, normally has a point, and transmits a hell of a lot more energy!

 

So I still think a co2 BB gun is just that (that is a 6mm plastic bb firing gun, not the metal bb firing gun)

[Tariq]

I have a Dan Wesson, 500fps. Would still class it as an airsoft gun.

It makes no sense classing it as anything else. The power is just the same as any airsoft sniper, both are non self cocking semi etc.

[ScoobySnacks]

And both, in law, would "probably" be classed as airguns rather than airsoft guns.

 

Yes spoon, an air rifle pellet weighing 15 grains weighs a little under 1 gram (so about 5 times the weight of your standard BB) though I would say they are not normally pointed, round nosed is the preferred pellet form (well actually normally called diablo or waisted round nose) for accuracy.

 

All that is entirely irrelevant, since the law deals purely with the energy the projectile possesses when it leaves the muzzle of the gun. How hard it hits is immaterial, it is the ME, governed by the pellet weight and velocity (ME=1/2 x mass x velocity squared) which the law talks about, and the Home Affairs select committee report I posted clearly states that anything firing over 1 ft.lb muzzle energy might be classed as a "lethal barreled weapon" and therefore a firearm, albeit a "low powered airgun".

 

What we think really doesn't make much difference, as it is the law that must guide a judge to make a decision in any case where he is called to make a judgement.

 

The only reason I can see it coming up in court would be if someone has a fully automatic gun firing above the 1 ft.lb limit. As I said above a couple of times this could well be defined as a section 5 (prohibited) weapon under the various Firearms acts, and could land someone with five years.

 

As I always say, if anyone has any information from a reliable, informed source which might prove me wrong then I'd love to hear it. (this is entirely genuine. If someone has factual evidence that I have said something incorrect I'd like them to put it up so that people don't act on erroneous information and get in trouble.)

[sp00n]

Well if we are to get technical all BB guns are "air weapons" regardless

 

One easy way to end this, is the co2 gun available for purchase/sale from a British company on the Internet??? As its illegal air rifles/pistols over the Internet, sales must be finalised face to face.

[Richard65]

I have a Dan Wesson, 500fps. Would still class it as an airsoft gun.

It makes no sense classing it as anything else. The power is just the same as any airsoft sniper, both are non self cocking semi etc.

The only references I could find match with ScoobySnacks comments. there is an upper limit for an airgun before it bercomes classified as a firarm rather than a low powered firearm. There is then a reference to guns under 1 joule being considered toys and not covered by the firears acts but may be considered RIFs under the VCRA.

 

As 1 joule with 0.20 bbs equates to just under 330 fps then you could argue that any airsoft gun above this should be classified as an airgun. A lot of airsoft sites do allow higher fps levels and this seems to be based on some guidance from the police rather than being based on legislation but I am not certain where to find that information so could be wrong.

 

Does this mean that airsoft retailers have to downgrade any gun they sell to at least 350/360fps (this seems to be the maximum site levels except for snipers) before they can send them by post? If they don't then are they really selling airguns by mail order rather than cafe-to-face. It also raises the question of importing airsoft guns that have a high fps as the defence only covers you for RIFs and airguns are not RIFs.

[SheriffHD]

Paintball guns fall outside the law regarding firearms, unless they were to shoot over the limit which is then considered a "dangerous air weapon" (12ft Lbs / 16J) So untill it reaches that level of power then the Paintball gun is outside the Law regarding the firearms act. (Which means it stays listed as a "Air weapon" and not "a firearm" but a court can decide that if the "air weapon" can cause "more than trifling and trival" injury and is therefore a "firearm" for the purpose of the of the acts (Moore v Gooderham [1960] 3 All E.R. 575)

 

So basically, all air guns are firearms, but not all firearms are air guns. Airsoft guns and Air rifle are determined by law to be "Air weapons" untill they are considered "firearms".

They are also considered prohibitied firearms if they Muzzle velocity exceeds 6ft/lbs for Pistols or 12ft/lbs for rifles.

 

On the flip side. I think airsofters who have joined this forum now know more about the firearm act and VCRA than the local police.

[ScoobySnacks]

No Sheriff.

 

Air weapons, except those with a muzzle energy lower than (around about, different people say different power levels) 1 joule of ME are classed as firearms.

 

Airsoft guns are not classed as firearms if they fire at below this level (in practice stretched to about 2 joules), so they are not IN LAW(those two words are important) classed as airguns, but rather toys. If they didn't look like a gun, and fired pellets at below the 1 to 2 joule energy level then they would be entirely uncontrolled. You could have a BB gun that was shaped like a banana, and it would be entirely legal for anyone to buy it, with no age restrictions. It is not an IF or RIF, and there's no law against selling imitation bananas!

 

It is their appearing similar to guns that brings them within the remit of the VCRA, and hence controls them.

[sp00n]

No Sheriff.

 

Air weapons, except those with a muzzle energy lower than (around about, different people say different power levels) 1 joule of ME are classed as firearms.

 

Airsoft guns are not classed as firearms if they fire at below this level (in practice stretched to about 2 joules), so they are not IN LAW(those two words are important) classed as airguns, but rather toys. If they didn't look like a gun, and fired pellets at below the 1 to 2 joule energy level then they would be entirely uncontrolled. You could have a BB gun that was shaped like a banana, and it would be entirely legal for anyone to buy it, with no age restrictions. It is not an IF or RIF, and there's no law against selling imitation bananas!

 

It is their appearing similar to guns that brings them within the remit of the VCRA, and hence controls them.

 

might i ask where you found the info about a lower energy bracket?, the only one i am aware of is the upper :-

 

 

Air Weapons

An air weapon is defined, under section 1(3)( and 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 as:

"an air rifle, air gun or air pistol which does not fall within section 5 (1) (a) and which is not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the Firearms Act to be specially dangerous".

Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses or is designed or adapted for use with, a self contained gas cartridge system is a prohibited weapon: section 5(1)(af) Firearms Act 1968 e.g. a Brocock

An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 ft lbs: Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 rr. 2, 3 (Archbold 24-8a.)

Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms.

Unless an air weapon falls within one of the above exceptions, it is not subject to section 1 Firearms Act 1968.

Source >>> http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/

 

as far as i can tell there is no minimum mentioned at all, i would be very interested to find out if there is, do you have a link to this info?

[ScoobySnacks]

Spoon, the lower energy limit for a projectile firing item to be considered a firearm (capable of firing a projectile with sufficient muzzle energy to cause more than trivial injury) came from a report of a meeting of the home office select committee in 2000, as I stated above.

 

 

 

However, as far as I've been able to ascertain, this dates back from a report by the Home Affairs select committee in 2000 (http://www.parliamen...95/9504.htm#n51) and I can't see any legal precedent where this has been tested in court.

[sp00n]

Spoon, the lower energy limit for a projectile firing item to be considered a firearm (capable of firing a projectile with sufficient muzzle energy to cause more than trivial injury) came from a report of a meeting of the home office select committee in 2000, as I stated above.

 

Arrr i seee, i take it that you are refaring to :-

26. The Home Office and the Forensic Science Service considers that the lowest level of muzzle energy capable of inflicting a penetrating wound is one foot pound (or about 1.35 joules): below these power levels, weapons are "incapable of penetrating even vulnerable parts of the body, such as the eye".[54] However, more recent analysis by the Forensic Science Agency for Northern Ireland has indicated that a more reasonable assessment of the minimum muzzle energy required to inflict a penetrating wound lies between 2.2 and 3.0 ft/lb (3-4 J).[55] We will deal more fully with this discrepancy at paragraphs 123 to 130 below.

 

Am i right in saying that these are only recommendations at the minute (i may be wrong), but they could be formed into legal basis. Very handy information , and i would like to see them implemented, as current law is very very broad, and needs updating slightly

[ScoobySnacks]

They were discussed during the meeting above, back in early 2000's. As far as I know there has been nothing enacting them in to law, so in effect they are only guidelines (though the HASC recommendations usually carry a fair amount of weight)