iBacon Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Now i know that the law states you cannot buy a non two toned without a license although you can be gifted one? Would it be possible that say someone gifted you the airsoft gun and then you payed them money for something else say a pack of pens (albeit an expensive set of pens) or is this considered illegal? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtTalbert Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Did you really just ask this question?You are in fact asking if its legal to lie about how you got a RIF without a licence. In what world & universe would it be 'OK' to be 'gifted' a gun and then give them money for something else to cover the cost. Honestly...its people like you that most likely caused the law to come in. Just play 3 times and get your own rifle. Also...I know you shouldn't make assumptions...but considering the stupidity of the question, i give you a piece of advice so you dont have an accident. The barrel should point the way you wish to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted May 25, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 25, 2013 Payment is payment, whether it be money, goods or services. If you're offering something in return other than gratitude then it's not a gift! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Now i know that the law states you cannot buy a non two toned without a license although you can be gifted one? Would it be possible that say someone gifted you the airsoft gun and then you payed them money for something else say a pack of pens (albeit an expensive set of pens) or is this considered illegal? Thanks! Can wee nip this in the bud now, there is no such thing as a UKARA licence. And to answer your question, NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Haha Mack, beat me to it. There is NO SUCH THING AS A LICENCE FOR AIRSOFT WEAPONS! UKARA is a scheme run by retailers, to protect retailers. Nothing more, nothing less. Payment OF ANY KIND means it is not a gift, and therefore the person doing the giving requires a defence against prosecution (note it is the SELLER, not the buyer, who commits the offence.) It might be difficult to prove that something of value has been exchanged for the gun, but the police can be surprisingly dogged about these things. Really not worth the risk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 It's kind of interesting how many people come here and does not seem to realise that we value our hobby and quite willing to follow the, not unreasonable, laws around airsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted May 26, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 26, 2013 If you are over 18 years old then you only have to play 3 times over not less than two months to have a valid defence so why try to get around the rules with an artificial gifting scheme? I would love to see the rules changed so that junior players could also have RIFs even if they had to play more games over a longer period to gain their defence. Maybe for under 18's it could be the parents who gain the defence through their kids playing and they have to buy and take responsibility for the guinds. After that they could ban all two-tones which would stop parents buying a potentially dangerous toy for their kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Thing is, once you're over 18 you got more legal responsibility, and also, you're expected to be a bit more mature. If you asked me who I think is more likely to take out a RIF in public if they owned one, a 10 year old or a 20 year old, I'd got for the 10 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted May 26, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 26, 2013 That is why I believe that parents would have to acept liability for control og RIFs. Mostly they will be transporting the kids and guns to/from the airsoft sites and should be able to keep them safe at home. Maybe it weould be better is the age limit was reduced to 17 for purchase as they can start driving cars at that age (if they can afford insurance!). Perobably far more risk of them doing damage with a car than an airsoft RIF but the law doesn't always make sence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 why.. are you 17? ...or maybe driving should be raised to 18 like in most countries around the world? parents liability does little to bring back a kid that got shot by police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted May 27, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 27, 2013 No - I just happen to have a son who is 17 and will soon be able to drive himself to the skirmishes. Just seems that if we consider them mature enough to drive a car then they should be able to own a RIF without taking it out onto the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 It's kind of interesting how many people come here and does not seem to realise that we value our hobby and quite willing to follow the, not unreasonable, laws around airsoft. "Not unreasonable" ??? The law is unclear, open to interpretation and pretty badly written. Banning an object because one or two people might abuse/misuse it, how is that reasonable? As for the "x number of games in x number of months" that is not set out anywhere in law. It is purely the UKARA scheme's requirement. The airsoft community is running scared. It shouldn't be! There are probably as many airsofters as there are users of real firearms in this country, and as such we have a reasonable amount of clout if we can work together. What we really could do with is a "UKAPA" scheme, run by players, for players, where sites can register and record your visits as evidence of a defense for a seller. It could be turned in to a powerful lobby organisation, in a similar way to the shooting organisations. People can join up, pay a small fee and the money raised could go towards fighting our corner. UKARA will not do this, unless it affects their members businesses. If we just lie down and accept the restrictions they will get ever tighter until airsoft guns of all sorts are banned altogether, or perhaps worse put "on ticket". We have a right to enjoy our pastime. There are laws to punish those that abuse items resembling firearms, so why are legitimate users being punished? Legislation is almost universally detrimental to rights and liberties. To encourage them by bending over and not working around the laws is to invite them to limit our liberties further and further! If you think that, without a fight, the law will be allowed to rest as it is then you are naive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjmcgough Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I find it funny that a 16 year old (in Scotland) can get married without their parents permission and have children but are not trusted with an airsoft gun, not even a bright green one! In answer to iBacon's question: You could get given the gun as a 'gift' and then buy a pack of pens off them at a ridiculous price but if something did happen and the police got involved I am sure they would still see that as buying the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted May 30, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 30, 2013 I find it funny that a 16 year old (in Scotland) can get married without their parents permission and have children but are not trusted with an airsoft gun, not even a bright green one! In answer to iBacon's question: You could get given the gun as a 'gift' and then buy a pack of pens off them at a ridiculous price but if something did happen and the police got involved I am sure they would still see that as buying the gun. Time to lower the drinking age to 16 then? Didn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjmcgough Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 No, I am not saying that at all. I am just saying I find that fact humorous. Wasn't using it as an argument for or against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 jcheese, why not? If a person is adult enough to decide that they wish to marry, then surely they can decide about whether to drink or not. The government's desire to control every aspect of our lives is pernicious and sinister in the extreme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 slightly off topic here, Alchol laws are a bit like those for RIFs If you’re under 18, it is against the law: for someone to sell you alcohol to buy or try to buy alcohol for an adult to buy or try to buy alcohol for you to drink alcohol in licensed premises (eg a pub or restaurant) However if you’re 16 or 17 and accompanied by an adult, you can drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider with a meal. If you’re 16 or under, you may be able to go to a pub (or premises primarily used to sell alcohol) if you’re accompanied by an adult. However, this isn’t always the case. It can also depend on: the specific conditions for that premises the licensable activities taking place there It’s illegal to give alcohol to children under 5. Source;https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-young-people-law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheriffHD Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 "What we really could do with is a "UKAPA" scheme, run by players, for players, where sites can register and record your visits as evidence of a defense for a seller. It could be turned in to a powerful lobby organisation, in a similar way to the shooting organisations. People can join up, pay a small fee and the money raised could go towards fighting our corner. I actually Like that Idea. As we all know, UKARA isnt a legal requirement, just the easiest way for airsofters to prove that they are in fact playing the sport. I think putting the resopseablity unto the player and not to the site makes it better as a whole, It may even help to sport to grow in a way. I am a member of a rilfe club, And because of that membership I ended up getting a shotgun licence along with my firearm licence because the the club I was apart of helped me out, giving me additional information that I wouldnt of got from my own as I simple didn't know of it. I guess what Im saying that, If there were more airsoft clubs to get people into the sport, it could push people to form teams, get friendly competition going and by doing such letting the sport grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted June 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted June 3, 2013 Do we need something like UKAPA when there is UKAPU already in existence (see link) http://www.ukapu.org.uk Probably better to support and help develop UKAPU than try and start something new.as it is always difficult finding enough volunteers to run these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Richard, thanks for that, I wasn't aware that the organisation existed. I guess the thing to remember is that the people who stand to be prosecuted, as the law stands, are the retailers, the people who sell the RIF's, so it kind of makes sense for them to run the scheme. That doesn't mean that a players organisation isn't a good idea. It gives players a stronger voice to defend the sport if they have numbers behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted June 5, 2013 Supporters Share Posted June 5, 2013 I agrre with the idea of a player's organisation. It is probably worth reading the minutes of the UKAPU meetings (found in the `about' section) to see if you agree with what they are trying to achieve. Two main aims appear to be getting recognition for airsofting from Sport England and pulling together the various airsoft bodies like UKAPU and UKARA into an airsoft council to promote the sport. One of the main stumbling blocks will be the lack of interest from airsofters. I don't know how many people play on a regular basis but I believe that the mebership of UKAPU stands at around 250 which will only be a fraction of the total players.- and that is after UKAPU has been around for 3 years. Maybe the annual membership fee (£5) puts some off or they just want to turn up and play. Maybe i should now practice what I preach and join myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted June 11, 2013 Supporters Share Posted June 11, 2013 Richard, thanks for that, I wasn't aware that the organisation existed. I guess the thing to remember is that the people who stand to be prosecuted, as the law stands, are the retailers, the people who sell the RIF's, so it kind of makes sense for them to run the scheme. That doesn't mean that a players organisation isn't a good idea. It gives players a stronger voice to defend the sport if they have numbers behind them. Scooby - just seen another post on this forum saying there are now 7000 members here. From the last agm minutes of UKAPU, they only have about 250-300 members. Not sure if this is because of a lack of awareness or lack of interest in a body that aims to propmote airsoft from the player perspective. We could have a strong lobby base but only if the players want it. Could be a great opportunity missed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipxfreeze14 Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Now i know that the law states you cannot buy a non two toned without a license although you can be gifted one? Would it be possible that say someone gifted you the airsoft gun and then you payed them money for something else say a pack of pens (albeit an expensive set of pens) or is this considered illegal? Thanks! You can say it's a "Gift".. Read some of the Q&A http://www.ukara.org.uk/questions.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF-UK Founding Member Deva Posted June 14, 2013 AF-UK Founding Member Share Posted June 14, 2013 It can be a gift. Not a "gift". That would imply you're using that excuse but really paying in some form or another. To me, it's obvious what was intended by the VCRA. Trying to get around it and look for and use grey areas certainly isn't going to do anything positive for airsoft as a whole. Doing things 100% legitimately is very easy to do, and if you are playing airsoft regularly (as you should be) and over 18 it's simply a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipxfreeze14 Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 It can be a gift. Not a "gift". That would imply you're using that excuse but really paying in some form or another. To me, it's obvious what was intended by the VCRA. Trying to get around it and look for and use grey areas certainly isn't going to do anything positive for airsoft as a whole. Doing things 100% legitimately is very easy to do, and if you are playing airsoft regularly (as you should be) and over 18 it's simply a non-issue. Ok I'm not gunna make any more problems but I say UKARA isn't working at all a should be got rid of all together. (My opinions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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