22TPA Motors

[Speedbird_666]

Ok, I'll keep this quick.

 

Situation:

- Got a KWA gun with an (allegedly) 14TPA motor out of the box but there's no way it has neo magnets.

- Said KWA gun does 23RPS on an 11.1v LiPo - which is waaay more than I need - I bought this primarily for semi-only CQB.

- Trigger response is good on an 11.1v and want to keep using 11.1v LiPos as I have a bunch of RC ones that fit the gun.

- Stock gear set is 18:1 and I don't want to replace or short stroke them

- Current draw is mental - drained a 1300mah LiPo to 45% in the space of one Hi-cap

- Motor (and by association pistol grip) gets super hot and the the smell is not pleasant

- I'm seeing burning/pitting on the trigger switch shuttle already after 30mins of use which implies a high current draw with the current setup

 

Looking for:

- Cool running, efficiency & reliability (yeah - I know it's Airsoft)

- Drop the ROF down to ~18RPS on a 11.1v, which is more than enough for what I need

- Want to keep the trigger as snappy, if not snappier than what I've already got - but not to the extent where I have to drop 50% of the gun's value on a Titan and start short stroking gears. Old school trigger shuttle is fine.

 

I'm thinking of:

- Rewiring with 16AWG Alphawire and adding a simple Mosfet (Gate PicoSSR3 or something) at the same time

- Buying a 22TPA motor to replace the stock one, emphasising torque and semi response over ROF

 

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated!

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

i'd be tempted to say the nanoasr over the picossr, if you wire it up with the hybrid wiring (ie 2 wires to the trigger seperate to the 2 wires to the motor) then it's basically a plug and play swap to the likes of a warfer if in future you decide you might want some precocking goodness.

 

iirc the motor i ran in the jg (only gun i ran on 11.1v long term) was one of the asg basics (the stock scorpion evo motor), and that would happily chug away all day (well, if you changed the 800mah battery at lunch) not sure if they do a long shaft version though (assuming it's long shaft you're after).

[Speedbird_666]

8 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

i'd be tempted to say the nanoasr over the picossr, [Snip]

 

[Snip] (assuming it's long shaft you're after).

 

Seems like the NanoASR is out of stock in a lot of places, and I stupidly sold some last year that were gathering dust in my parts box. Z1 (my local) has NanoHARDs in stock for a tenner more - I suppose I could use that with the AB switched off.

 

Otherwise I was tempted to get a Perun AB++, as the ETU++ in my son's G&G has been great, I know I won't get the full feature set (i.e. cycle completion), but it'll do a few features that might be worth playing around with.

 

And yep - long shaft motor.

 

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Seems like the NanoASR is out of stock in a lot of places, and I stupidly sold some last year that were gathering dust in my parts box. Z1 (my local) has NanoHARDs in stock for a tenner more - I suppose I could use that with the AB switched off.

 

tbh probably not worth it for the extra cost, especially if you're not fussed about future expansion or the need to re-wire the gun if you do change your mind.

 

3 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Otherwise I was tempted to get a Perun AB++, as the ETU++ in my son's G&G has been great, I know I won't get the full feature set (i.e. cycle completion), but it'll do a few features that might be worth playing around with.

 

afaik the ab++ is perun's warfet competitor, so unless you care about the first semi shot after a burst in auto having precocking then should be good.

 

not used them personally (prefer the warfet's programming card) but perun have made a solid enough name for themselves.

[Skara]

If you want a good, not too expensive, cool running motor, get a ZCI 22tpa.

I have one in my PDW (literally the only gun I run on 11.1s) and the cycle time in semi auto is stupid, not quite warhead levels of stupid but certainly more stupid than a 16tpa SHS HT motor. Okay mine pulls a 13:1 gearset at 25 RPS on a 11.1 but if semi auto is your goal, it's the way to go (without dishing for a warhead). I have yet to experience overheating in that thing, even after some binary spam it stays cool.

 

Regarding the mosfet, the AB++ is not far from the Hybrid in terms of price. I'm sure it's a good mosfet (haven't tried one myself) but from my experience with Hybrids, you can't really go wrong with them.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Skara

[Speedbird_666]

Just now, Skara said:

Regarding the mosfet, the AB++ is not far from the Hybrid in terms of price.

 

Problem is - the only drop-in unit that work in a KWA is the Titan. The sensor for the sector gear on the Perun Hybrid and indeed the Gate Aster sits 1-2mm too low to pick up the rotation thanks to KWA's proprietary gearbox shell.

 

5 minutes ago, Skara said:

If you want a good, not too expensive, cool running motor, get a ZCI 22tpa.

 

That's pretty much what I was looking at. Good info - thanks!

[colinjallen]

4 hours ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Ok, I'll keep this quick.

 

Situation:

- Got a KWA gun with an (allegedly) 14TPA motor out of the box but there's no way it has neo magnets.

- Said KWA gun does 23RPS on an 11.1v LiPo - which is waaay more than I need - I bought this primarily for semi-only CQB.

- Trigger response is good on an 11.1v and want to keep using 11.1v LiPos as I have a bunch of RC ones that fit the gun.

- Stock gear set is 18:1 and I don't want to replace or short stroke them

- Current draw is mental - drained a 1300mah LiPo to 45% in the space of one Hi-cap

- Motor (and by association pistol grip) gets super hot and the the smell is not pleasant

- I'm seeing burning/pitting on the trigger switch shuttle already after 30mins of use which implies a high current draw with the current setup

 

Looking for:

- Cool running, efficiency & reliability (yeah - I know it's Airsoft)

- Drop the ROF down to ~18RPS on a 11.1v, which is more than enough for what I need

- Want to keep the trigger as snappy, if not snappier than what I've already got - but not to the extent where I have to drop 50% of the gun's value on a Titan and start short stroking gears. Old school trigger shuttle is fine.

 

I'm thinking of:

- Rewiring with 16AWG Alphawire and adding a simple Mosfet (Gate PicoSSR3 or something) at the same time

- Buying a 22TPA motor to replace the stock one, emphasising torque and semi response over ROF

 

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated!

 

 

I wouldn't go near a PicoSSR3; they seem to have a rather high failure rate.

[Floperator]

Might be worth borrowing a lower voltage battery because this might well be the easiest and cheapest solution despite the desire to run 11.1s...

[Skara]

18 hours ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Problem is - the only drop-in unit that work in a KWA is the Titan. The sensor for the sector gear on the Perun Hybrid and indeed the Gate Aster sits 1-2mm too low to pick up the rotation thanks to KWA's proprietary gearbox shell.

This because KWA is a shit brand that can't think of anything else to retain their customers other than filling their guns with shit proprietary parts which, in most cases, are the weak link.

FTFY.

[Speedbird_666]

29 minutes ago, Skara said:

FTFY.

 

Thank you Captain Obvious, who's your trusty sidekick.... Hindsight-Boy? 😏

 

In all seriousness, I was aware of the proprietary nature of KWA before purchase. But it was the first gun in ages (read:years) that I truly wanted to buy as soon as I set eyes on it. So much so I ordered it the day it was released in the UK.

 

Was it my most sensible purchase? - no. But I don't regret it really now. I know with a few internal tweaks there's a lovely gun to be had there. 

 

I've had far worse guns for the money that I paid for this (£244) and nothing comes close to the external build quality at this price point. There's nothing wrong with the internals either (it's built like a tank) apart from the abysmal amp-hungry stock motor.

[Ussli]

Help my teammates repair the rifle today, I find that they all use different brands and parameters of high torque NdFeB motors (Nd-Fe-B high strong magnet), I removed 4 motors and tested their efficiency.

Motor efficiency refers to the ratio of the output speed with load to the no-load speed, high-efficiency motors save power and generate less heat.

The four motors shown below:

A:N35H 34000RPM

B:N52SH 28000RPM

C:N35 or N48 31000RPM (Unable to find the motor magnetic shoe level, by hand twist and torque comparison, guess it may be N35 or N48)

D:N35 36000RPM

 

The four motors are installed in the same rifle in the order of ABCD, use the same configuration of the gearbox grip, same battery, fully charge to 12.6V each time, conduct sonic test, get the RPS, then calculate the conversion efficiency of each motor.

The gears used are 12:1 weight reduction hollow steel cut gears, the spring is M85, and the initial speed is about 270FPS (limited by local regulations).

Get the track Waveform Diagram as below

By calculating the peak value in one second, we get the RPS of each motor:

A:36

B:37

C:33

D:35

The formula for calculating efficiency is RPS*12*60/no-load speed, we get the following data

Group	Magnetic shoe model	12.6V RPS	11.1V no-load RPM	12.6V loaded  RPM(RPS*12*60)	Relative efficiency
A	N35H	36	34000	25920	76.23%
B	N52SH	37	28000	26640	95.14%
C	N35 orN48	33	31000	23760	76.64%
D	N35	35	36000	25200	70.00%

Please note:

1. The no-load speed marked by the manufacturer is measured at 11.1V, and the load voltage in this test is 12.6V, so the efficiency cannot represent an absolute value, and can only be used as a comparison reference for the efficiency performance of different types of motors
2. Efficiency is also directly related to the spring we use. If a high FPS spring is used, the efficiency may change. It is speculated that the more efficient motor should have a more obvious efficiency advantage under high load conditions (high FPS).
3. In addition to the magnetic shoestrength, the efficiency is also related to the coil
4. Because the motor is not brand new, the accuracy of the efficiency data may be affected by the high temperature demagnetization of individual motors.
5. From the test results, it can be seen that the B motor with the lowest no-load speed achieves the highest RPS in actual use due to its ultra-high efficiency, and at the same time, the heating energy consumption is lower. Although the no-load speed of the D model is high, due to low efficiency, the actual RPS is in a backward position,and it also brings more heat.

The above data are obtained from my non-professional tests and are only for players' reference.