How I'm understanding UKARA

[ImTriggerHappy]

46 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

 

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

 

 

That still wouldn't work out to a £150 because £75 comes straight off for playing fees so you are only actually paying £75 for the 3 rental packages. 

Then you can take out bbs because they are supplied so say another £15.

So in total its cost you £60 to prove your interest in airsoft is legitimate and that you are a regular skirmisher so no biggie.

 

I have never had a problem with the UKARA defence and can't understand why some people have a big issue with it. It is a simple solution that helped prevent airsoft becoming more legislated and while it doesn't state UKARA exactly in the vcra it does mention a registration scheme to be set up by retailers and sites in the exemption.

 

Best thing is to just get on with and stop whining because it could be worse.

[Andyraven]

17 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

That still wouldn't work out to a £150 because £75 comes straight off for playing fees so you are only actually paying £75 for the 3 rental packages. 

Then you can take out bbs because they are supplied so say another £15.

So in total its cost you £60 to prove your interest in airsoft is legitimate and that you are a regular skirmisher so no biggie.

 

I have never had a problem with the UKARA defence and can't understand why some people have a big issue with it. It is a simple solution that helped prevent airsoft becoming more legislated and while it doesn't state UKARA exactly in the vcra it does mention a registration scheme to be set up by retailers and sites in the exemption.

 

Best thing is to just get on with and stop whining because it could be worse.

 

you're still spending at least £150 it doesnt matter about walk of fees if you dont have any gear and need to hire.

[ImTriggerHappy]

9 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

you're still spending at least £150 it doesnt matter about walk of fees if you dont have any gear and need to hire.

But you would be spending £90 to play those 3 games if you had your own kit so the difference is £60. So the requirements are actually only making a difference of £60. 

 

Basic maths and logic.

[Andyraven]

10 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

But you would be spending £90 to play those 3 games if you had your own kit so the difference is £60. So the requirements are actually only making a difference of £60. 

 

Basic maths and logic.

 

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

 

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

 

this is all my own opinion.

[sokar666]

My god what

Just now, Andyraven said:

 

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

 

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

 

this is all my own opinion.

Uhmm how do you answer that, what logic are you using.  What you are basically saying is a non entity database is running a get rich quick scheme by scamming airsofters. You do realise the money you pay goes to the site your using not to an inanimate database.  My local field is £25 walk on, £20 membership, bag of 6000 bb's is £10, gun rental is £20, so that's £55 for the day which would be £165 over 3 games.  I'll put this in big bold letters for the hard of hearing - UKARA DOES NOT GET ANYTHING IT IS A DATABASE SET UP BY RETAILERS, does that help.  If you had a RIF you would still be paying the above mentioned not including gun rental, i really don't see what the issue is.  There are loads that skirmish at my site with two tone guns, doesn's concern them and don't see why it should concern you.  Play your 3 games and paint it, problem solved.  The issue is yourself, you want the RIF and not have to do anything to get it, well not gonna happen so get over it.

[ImTriggerHappy]

5 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

 

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

 

this is all my own opinion.

You are not taking into account the ammo which would be about £15 across 3 games.

 

The rest of the money goes to the site which covers the cost of the rental weapons and gear.

 

Once you have done your 3 games you can get site membership which is say £10 a year and thats the real cost of your name being entered on the database  £10 a year.

 

Site pay a fee to be part of the ukara system and a potion of your membership covers that. You are going on like somewhere there is someone making millions of it all and there isn't.

 

If it bothers you that much go play golf instead.

[sokar666]

1 minute ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

You are not taking into account the ammo which would be about £15 across 3 games.

 

The rest of the money goes to the site which covers the cost of the rental weapons and gear.

 

Once you have done your 3 games you can get site membership which is say £10 a year and thats the real cost of your name being entered on the database  £10 a year.

 

Site pay a fee to be part of the ukara system and a potion of your membership covers that. You are going on like somewhere there is someone making millions of it all and there isn't.

 

If it bothers you that much go play golf instead.

It's like i wrote above, he's making out a database is running some sort of ponsie scheme lol.  You don't wanna pay then don't play, it can't get any simpler.

[sokar666]

10 hours ago, scalawag said:

Ok cool,  Thats me out of airsoft then as I am sure is the same for you I do not wish to own 2 tone airsoft guns (how many 2 tones do you own and use regularly).  

 

it seems the law precludes me from acquiring what I would like to own, even though actually owning it is not illegal.  Is that discriminatory? possibly, but that doesn't matter eh! cos you still have what you want. Who cares about anyone else.

 

Read the posts again and you will see that the current defences where not questioned or misunderstood so really no need to remind of them yet again.  My posts were about the inequalities in the law as it stands and not about what the law says.

 

What I think is very questionable from what you have said is airsoft skirmishings assertion of its need for realism.  There is absolutely no need for an RIF in skirmishing.  It is nice to have, and it completes the look, but a non realistic looking airsoft gun will work just as well at a skirmish as an RIF, so need realism, nah you don't, no more than anyone else does.  Airsoft skirmishers wanting RIFs to complete a look is not the same as needing an RIF.  This I think is a very unconvincing argument, especially in the current social climate. Needing a realistic looking gun to shoot at other people even in a controlled environment would be ludicrous to the public at large.

 

Good luck with that when this law comes up for amendment, which it will.  

 

Oh and you had the support of people like me last time it was debated, lobbying government on behalf of all of the airsoft comunity, you won't get it again next time as I will be doing something else now.

 

Byee.

You have an issue with UKARA defense preventing you from owning a RIF.  But the reality is without the UKARA database, airsoft could have been destroyed for everyone, you are arguing against one of the things that kept airsoft alive in the UK.  Further more UKARA doesnt prevent you from owning a RIF, it just requires you to participate in 3 games, if you don't want to do that buy a two toned, what does it matter you don't need the realism.  Your argument is basically saying i'm being descriminated against because i refuse to play the 3 games, that's not discrimination, you have decided that yourself.  You say why should i have to, well you could say that about about other things in life.  Why am i forced to have a tv license, why do  need to take lessons to drive a car, simple answer because it's the law so get over it.  It really winds me up when i see things like this, people whining because they want everything and not have to do anything for it, winge winge winge all the time.  And by the sound of your replies, airsoft will survive just nicely without you, so don't hit your head on the way out.

[Andyraven]

 

17 minutes ago, sokar666 said:

It's like i wrote above, he's making out a database is running some sort of ponsie scheme lol.  You don't wanna pay then don't play, it can't get any simpler.

 i dont have to pay for UKARA as i own another kind of Defence. that i spend £30 a year and  that helps me out in legal advice and fees if somthing happens to me.

 

what i would like to see is instead of UKARA how about an organization that helps Airsoft players and helps Fund and Defend Airsoft in laws.

UKARA only helps the Retailers not the players. plus the extra money some retailers charge for two-tone paint jobs...cough***Patrol Base***cough.

[sokar666]

22 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

 i dont have to pay for UKARA as i own another kind of Defence. that i spend £30 a year and  that helps me out in legal advice and fees if somthing happens to me.

 

what im saying is instead of UKARA how about an organization that helps Airsoft players and helps Fund and Defend Airsoft in laws.

UKARA only helps the Retailers not the players. plus the extra money some retailers charge for two-tone paint jobs...cough***Patrol Base***cough.

Your argument is irrelevant.  If your defense you pay £30 for isn't covered by the VCRA then it is not a valid defence.  Again you want something for free, paint costs money why shouldn't they charge you for painting your gun, that takes time as well.  There are websites that don't charge for two tone, go there instead, no one is forcing you to go to patrolbase.

 

We already have organisations and groups that fight for airsoft rights in the UK, why would we need another because you don't wanna play 3 games.

 

My first gun was an ICS Transform4 UK1R, no valid defense so had the stock, pistol grip and rail painted red, used it in my first 3 games, not an issue.  I didn't care about the colour, other people didn't care about the colour.  It is now not red anymore as i have my valid defense, i really don't see what your issue is.  Without UKARA and other forms of defense then airsoft in the UK could have been completely butchered to the point of it not being worth it at all.

[Andyraven]

2 minutes ago, sokar666 said:

Your argument is irrelevant.  If your defense you pay £30 for isn't covered by the VCRA then it is not a valid defence.  Again you want something for free, paint costs money why shouldn't they charge you for painting your gun, that takes time as well.  There are websites that don't charge for two tone, go there instead, no one is forcing you to go to patrolbase.

 

We already have organisations and groups that fight for airsoft rights in the UK, why would we need another because you don't wanna play 3 games.

it does cover VCRA  and i get legal help if needed. can you say that for a UKARA holder?

 

im just saying. some retailers are using the UKARA and making extra money of it. when that money could have gone into an organisation that helps players and helps defend airsoft like my defence does.

 

 

 

[sokar666]

17 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

it does cover VCRA  and i get legal help if needed. can you say that for a UKARA holder?

 

im just saying. some retailers are using the UKARA and making extra money of it. when that money could have gone into an organisation that helps players and helps defend airsoft like my defence does.

 

 

 

Who is making extra money from UKARA, a software database.  I'm happy for your legal defense but why would i need to be worried about legal affairs. I am breaking no laws, i am an airsoft skirmisher, i don't use my guns for any other purpose so again why would i want to pay more for a legal affair that will never come.

 

Plus you say UKARA is making money even though it is free to join but you are paying £30 a year for your legal defense, i just don't get your reasoning behind complaining about something that is free to join.  Again no one is forcing you to use it, you don't like it use something else but in most cases you will still need to play 3 games regardless.  Most of the other defenses to really come into play as they are really occupation related which won't affect your average weekend skirmisher.

 

You hold a reenactments defense which is cool but i'm sure to obtain that you had to prove you were actively doing reenactments, the principle is exactly the same as UKARA but actually your paying more while complaining about paying more, do you see the irony.

[Andyraven]

15 minutes ago, sokar666 said:

Who is making extra money from UKARA, a software database.  I'm happy for your legal defense but why would i need to be worried about legal affairs. I am breaking no laws, i am an airsoft skirmisher, i don't use my guns for any other purpose so again why would i want to pay more for a legal affair that will never come.

 

Plus you say UkARA is making money even though it is free to join but you are paying £30 a year for your legal defense, i just don't get your reasoning behind complaining about something that is free to join.  Again no one is forcing you to use it, you don't like it use something else but in most cases you will still need to play 3 games regardless.  Most of the other defenses to really come into play as they are really occupation related which won't affect your average weekend skirmisher.

Accidents happen i would rather be safe then sorry. And i use my Defence of other activities. Yea £30 a year but im getting more then just the right to buy a RIF in return.

 

i just feel there could be a better way then UKARA , A way to help the sport and not the retailers who sell the items.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Andyraven said:

 

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

 

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

 

 

£150 spent on playing & renting

A technicality but it's not £150 for UKARA

 

A one off casual player would be paying £50 for nothing other than the experience 

[Tommikka]

1 minute ago, Andyraven said:

Accidents happen i would rather be safe then sorry. And i use my Defence of other activities. Yea £30 a year but im getting more then just the right to buy a RIF in return.

 

i just feel there could be a better way then UKARA , A way to help the sport and not the retailers who sell the items.

There are other schemes than the UKARA

 

For your £30 per year - Are you incurring other expenses for taking part in recreations, (period clothing, subs to your society etc - is your £30 the overarching 'recreationists' membership, insurance etc, and did you sign up for your £30 when you started the first time you tried it?

[Tommikka]

Just a reference to a few of the posts on paintball and RIFs

I have meant to quote them, but will do a quickie.  I wrote a bit about this on one of my first posts to the forum

 

Paintball is not VCRA exempt, contrary to the belief of many who kept their heads in the sand

 

Pre VCRA the airsoft community got involved with the Home Office during the work on the bill

In paintball we had the one man band of the UKPSF (Steve Bull) who has spent much time with the home office standing the corner for paintball.  His UKPSF was the original European federation, and he spun off as U.K. dedicated when the European federation gained traction

 

At the time paintball was (and still is) primarily punter paintball, but with strong walkon, scenario event crowds and a rising tournament structure.  There was a small Milsim community, they played the style using normal paintball guns - usually Tippmanns and there were one or two individuals custom building true replicas

There were emerging manufactures such as RAP4 using the paintball type guns they had made for police training, and mostly converting to recreational legal velocities

Paintball and the VCRA was not going to be a battle that could be won

(I bought my Chinese army tacamo ak47 paintball training gun at that time from a bloke called 007 in lidls car park ---- before tacamo were building and marketing for recreational use in the us.  Just in time for pre VCRA possession) ......

 

[Tommikka]

Following on a few years and there are many more RIF like guns, with the pathetic argument that it doesn't look real because there's a hopper on it, which fails the VCRA test that if anyone thinks it is a RIF and it's not in the specified two tone colour ranges then it is a rif

 

Add mag fed paintball guns, with an extremely vocal magfed community with infighting of two key magfed factions and anti tournament attitudes then things get very public and visible for years

 

the paintball retailers went to the UKPSF for new home office consultation ......

 

cue extra in-fighting for 'exposing' rifs

[Andyraven]

2 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

There are other schemes than the UKARA

 

For your £30 per year - Are you incurring other expenses for taking part in recreations, (period clothing, subs to your society etc - is your £30 the overarching 'recreationists' membership, insurance etc, and did you sign up for your £30 when you started the first time you tried it?

 

its no more then most Airsoft players spend on there equipment and clothing. plus i can use my Repro stuff for Airsoft aswell. also I can get items cheaper because of being part of a reenactment group. my memebership covers VCRA and i have a public liability insurance that covers me. unlike Airsoft/paintball sites that cover them. and no it was the second time as i wanted to be able to fire blank firing guns and contribute to the mock battles we have.

[Tommikka]

In the preceding years RAP4UK had been formed making a UK retailer for RAP4 and taking the risk away from the importing customer

They invented their own scheme at a later date due to a fact finding visit by the association of chief constables

 

RAP4UK were abused by parts of the community until they explained the visit and that they had been told by the chief constables that virtually every single paintball gun called be called a rif - 'you better think up a scheme of some kind in case we come back officially'

 

 

[Tommikka]

The now better resourced UKPSF spoke to the home office and ended up with two possible outcomes if a vcra based case occurred :

 

1) maybe a court will decide the vcra does not apply based on the firearms act and a combination of air weapon and frangible paintballs

 

2) maybe a cour will decide that vcra does apply and a scheme would be required, ukpsf membership might support that 

 

Both are untested answers, ditto the old RAP4UK scheme.

But it currently gives paintball retailers & ukpsf a reasonable defence that they have down their bit 

[Andyraven]

6 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

The now better resourced UKPSF spoke to the home office and ended up with two possible outcomes if a vcra based case occurred :

 

1) maybe a court will decide the vcra does not apply based on the firearms act and a combination of air weapon and frangible paintballs

 

2) maybe a cour will decide that vcra does apply and a scheme would be required, ukpsf membership might support that 

 

Both are untested answers, ditto the old RAP4UK scheme.

But it currently gives paintball retailers & ukpsf a reasonable defence that they have down their bit 

i think Airsoft and painball should come together and help each other out alot me.

 

if i used paintball BBs would that make my airsoft gun comply with 1). ?

[sokar666]

4 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

its no more then most Airsoft players spend on there equipment and clothing. plus i can use my Repro stuff for Airsoft aswell. also I can get items cheaper because of being part of a reenactment group. my memebership covers VCRA and i have a public liability insurance that covers me. unlike Airsoft/paintball sites that cover them. and no it was the second time as i wanted to be able to fire blank firing guns and contribute to the mock battles we have.

Your personal liablity insurance would really not count for much, you have decided to go to airsoft field.  You have to sign a waver anyway that you are aware of the dangers and all responsibilities.  They won't even let you on without signing.  Additionally if you were to injure yourself while playing airsoft how is that the sites fault, so again why would you need personal insurance.  Just seems to me that you want everything without taking any responsibility.

[Sacarathe]

On 30/03/2017 at 11:28 AM, Andyraven said:

 

Its pretty bad seeing as you have to spend upto or over £150 just to get a UKARA Number. Just seems to be a money making scam. Thats why i use my reenactment license (shooters Rights Association) which is basically the same as a UKARA. But it only cost me £30 a year. The only thing i havn't done with it is order from overseas, but im sure i can without too much hassle.

 

Last I checked 3 games of airsoft is usually 60-90, not £150. No one forces you to rent.

[Andyraven]

2 minutes ago, sokar666 said:

Your personal liablity insurance would really not count for much, you have decided to go to airsoft field.  You have to sign a waver anyway that you are aware of the dangers and all responsibilities.  They won't even let you on without signing.  Additionally if you were to injure yourself while playing airsoft how is that the sites fault, so again why would you need personal insurance.  Just seems to me that you want everything without taking any responsibility.

 

Accidents happen and i would like to be safe then sorry. it covers me if i hurt someone by accident aswell.

[Andyraven]

Just now, Sacarathe said:

 

Last I checked 3 games of airsoft is usually 60-90, not £150. No one forces you to rent.

 .. no no one does but its the easiest way for you to get a UKARA and where i live my local charges £50 for a hire day.