UKARA Question

[JapaneseMafia]

So if I were to drive onto a ferry in my car from france to dover that would still be considerd illegal? I also dont think that they will search the car untill they find the RIF

[jcheeseright]

So if I were to drive onto a ferry in my car from france to dover that would still be considerd illegal? I also dont think that they will search the car untill they find the RIF

 

Yes, illegal, not 'considered illegal', actually properly written down in law illegal, as in against the law.

 

IMPORTING A RIF IS AGAINST THE LAW.

 

Regardless of your chances of being caught, it is still a crime.

[JapaneseMafia]

And if it were dissasembled

[Chock]

 

It is absolutely illegal, importation is importation!!

 

Nope, you are wrong on this point. The VCR Act is quite specific in that regard. The section below where it says it is illegal is not a sweeping statement in isolation, it is followed by this wording: 'Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37'

 

The defences in Section 37 are the ones I listed. These therefore negate the ability to prosecute if one is importing a RIF if one can legitimately offer one of those defences listed. That is why it says that the legality/illegality of the matter is subject to those Section 37 defences.

 

If this were not the case, all the airsoft retail sites in this country which were importing and selling RIFs would be breaking the law, and they are not, because they ask for a UKARA to ensure their supplying of the RIF was pertaining to a Section 37 defence. That is why they ask for it, they do not have some magical commercial waiver that we do not.

[jcheeseright]

 

Nope, you are wrong on this point. The VCR Act is quite specific in that regard. The section below where it says it is illegal is not a sweeping statement in isolation, it is followed by this wording: 'Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37'

 

The defences in Section 37 are the ones I listed. These therefore negate the ability to prosecute if one is importing a RIF if one can legitimately offer one of those defences listed. That is why it says that the legality/illegality of the matter is subject to those Section 37 defences.

 

read the actual act:

 

 

Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a)he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

©he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

(d)he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

[Mack]

Fuck me would you quit trying to find fucking loopholes and just abide like the rest

[JapaneseMafia]

Thanks I appreciate all the help It would be easier just to get a defence then go against the law. This is all i wanted to know

[Sitting Duck]

uhm isn't what you are suggesting SMUGGLING ???

 

so in effect you would be in deeper $hit if caught ???

 

not having a go but what you are asking is a way round to dodge the regulations

and further more sneakily hiding or smuggling a RIF into UK

but at same time asking if that could be deemed legal ???

 

even if we all said it would be fine - which it ain't

no customs/judge is gonna think that would be legit

good luck if you get caught

 

much easier to get ukara

 

we may not all 101% agree with vcra but we abide by the rather easy & simple steps

that way we can continue to enjoy playing with our toy guns

 

it "may" seem bollox but what rules and regulations are perfect

fact is we abide by it and by doing so we can continue

 

Go to Australia - it is still banned there to the best of my knowledge

now that is bollox but thankfully we ain't down under

 

Aussies can't even get a 2-tone to repaint ffs

[jcheeseright]

Point D specifically there.

 

As for the OP, I strongly suggest you have a read of this:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

It's the law you'll be breaking, there's a nice bit at the bottom about sentencing.

[Chock]

 

read the actual act:

 

 

Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a)he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

( he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

©he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

(d)he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

 

Read the bit below that part of the Act. And you may not mean to be rude, but you seem to manage it quite well anyway.

[JapaneseMafia]

I think that im not naive enough not to listen to expert advice from you guys so offcourse im not going to smuggle or do anything illegal. Ive had first hand experiance with the law at heathrow this winter whilst having a airsoft gun in my checked bag without declaring it the heathrow police came to have a chat but as soon as i showed that they were just 'toys' they were smiling away. (Unfortunately the plane was delayed by a half hour but defiantly not my fault that they had to take my bag from the aeroplane and check it )

[Chock]

Frankly, if I were considering sticking a RIF in luggage (and in reality I would not, because I don't like the idea of being shot by an air marshall lol), I would be contacting the airport at both ends and the airline concerned too, and probably Customs as well, and only if I got the nod from all concerned would I then be going ahead with doing so.

 

Just get a UKARA. It'll be a crapload less hassle. Incidentally, in answer to the other question, a RIF being in bits would make no difference whatsoever, since it could obviously be put back together.

[Sitting Duck]

if that is correct then it was your fault coz you could/should have declared it

 

by not doing so or not informing people YOU created the problem that could have been avoided

alas if you failed to learn from that experience then I doubt if you ever will

[Cheeky vimto]

I think that im not naive enough not to listen to expert advice from you guys so offcourse im not going to smuggle or do anything illegal. Ive had first hand experiance with the law at heathrow this winter whilst having a airsoft gun in my checked bag without declaring it the heathrow police came to have a chat but as soon as i showed that they were just 'toys' they were smiling away. (Unfortunately the plane was delayed by a half hour but defiantly not my fault that they had to take my bag from the aeroplane and check it )

 

I always see stuff like this on 'customs' type shows. I remember one guy in Australia had the whole arrival area evacuated because of a belt buckle in the shape of a grenade. I always what kind of person does that... Haha

[Chock]

Yup. I once brought a 20 foot long braided leather bullwhip back from Spain, for a former girlfriend who collected them (don't ask lol). I walked through Customs in Spain with it wrapped in thin tissue paper, and was duly stopped by them.

 

'You cannot have that in the cabin senor, since it is classed as a weapon.' say they.

 

'How could I hijack an airliner with a whip? Who do you think I am, Indiana Jones?' say I.

 

Customs do not like jokes by the way.

 

So, the whip had to be handed to a Cabin Crew member for the duration of the flight.

 

Now, picture the scene. There I am coming off the plane at Manchester airport, and I pass through Customs, and there is my girlfriend waiting for me, I walk across the concourse toward her, when this drop dead gorgeous stewardess who I had been chatting to on the flight back comes running up to me, shouting 'Al, Al, you forgot your whip!'

[JapaneseMafia]

if that is correct then it was your fault coz you could/should have declared it

 

by not doing so or not informing people YOU created the problem that could have been avoided

alas if you failed to learn from that experience then I doubt if you ever will

 

Frankly, if I were considering sticking a RIF in luggage (and in reality I would not, because I don't like the idea of being shot by an air marshall lol), I would be contacting the airport at both ends and the airline concerned too, and probably Customs as well, and only if I got the nod from all concerned would I then be going ahead with doing so.

 

Just get a UKARA. It'll be a crapload less hassle. Incidentally, in answer to the other question, a RIF being in bits would make no difference whatsoever, since it could obviously be put back together.

 

I understand well that it was my fault that I stupidly forgot one of the rails in my onboard bag therefore on passing security that was when the problems

occured however the constable (I forgot the chaps name) said that transporting a IF (Not a RIF) in checked bags are okay however it would have been better to notifiy the check in desk beforehand.

 

However lessons were learnt so all good

[JapaneseMafia]

Yup. I once brought a 20 foot long braided leather bullwhip back from Spain, for a former girlfriend who collected them (don't ask lol). I walked through Customs in Spain with it wrapped in thin tissue paper, and was duly stopped by them.

 

'You cannot have that in the cabin senor, since it is classed as a weapon.' say they.

 

'How could I hijack an airliner with a whip? Who do you think I am, Indiana Jones?' say I.

 

Customs do not like jokes by the way.

 

So, the whip had to be handed to a Cabin Crew member for the duration of the flight.

 

Now, picture the scene. There I am coming off the plane at Manchester airport, and I pass through Customs, and there is my girlfriend waiting for me, I walk across the concourse toward her, when this drop dead gorgeous stewardess who I had been chatting to on the flight back comes running up to me, shouting 'Al, Al, you forgot your whip!'

 

Im sorry but your the best user ive met online that experiance is too hilarious to imagine

[Chock]

And it is absolutely true, 1990 it was, Caledonian Airways if memory serves. I recall that there were a lot of people on the concourse looking at me, who were obviously thinking 'uh, oh, if that's his girlfriend over there, then he is in BIG trouble.'

[Sitting Duck]

OK - final thoughts on this matter......

 

you already have some aeg's, presume you are the age to purchase them yourself

and looking to get another RIF or your first RIF if others are IF's

(dunno how you came to own them if they are RIF's)

 

it is not a big deal to skirmish a few times and keep ya hand in playing now n then

(some say back yard target shooting but targets don't shoot back and means jack if you are good at targets)

 

heck I hate having to renew my driving license, amongst other stuff that I never had to do or pay for renewals

but that is just the way it goes

[jcheeseright]

 

Read the bit below that part of the Act. And you may not mean to be rude, but you seem to manage it quite well anyway.

there's no part under that which makes the import of a RIF legal under any circumstances. It's ALWAYS illegal, much like the sale is ALWAYS illegal, we simply have a defence against prosecution for committing that crime.

[Chock]

there's no part under that which makes the import of a RIF legal under any circumstances. It's ALWAYS illegal, much like the sale is ALWAYS illegal, we simply have a defence against prosecution for committing that crime.

 

To clarify. Below are the exact definitions of legal terms for UK law:

 

Illegal - something prohibited, or not authorised by law.

 

Guilty - having been found to have violated a criminal law.

 

Offence - a breach of a rule of law.

 

Specific Defence - a defence suitable to answer for a specified offence in any legislation.

 

Shall - must, will be, is

 

Subject to - bound or constrained by

 

So, when Section 37 of the VCR Act states that:

 

37 Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

 

(1) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct...

 

This pertains to:

 

36:

 

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

 

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

 

( b ) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

( c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

 

(2) Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37.

 

(note the IF in the preceding bit. More importantly, note that at the end of the list of offences, it states that they are subject to the defences in Section 37, which means, in legal terms, that these defences are caveats to the Law, and the law is limited in scope by those caveats)

 

So let's break this down. Adherence to the Specific Defences listed in Section 37, means that any of those listed are a defence suitable to answer for a potential offence in question. Thus the legislation does not extend to the point where any of those actions are deemed an offence. And if something is suitable to answer to an offence, then anyone who can legitimately use such a Specific Defence will not be found to have done something prohibited by law, therefore they cannot by definition have done anything illegal. This means their actions must therefore be legal, so they cannot be guilty of an offence. This is why specific defences are listed in UK Acts of Parliament, to clarify how and when the law applies. The UK Government do not put these in the legislation because they were bored when drafting it and wanted to pad it out a bit, or thought it might be fun to have them in there, they are part of the legislation to clarify its boundaries exactly, otherwise it would be completely pointless to put them in there.

[Lozart]

Having a defence against prosecution is not the same as not having committed an offence. Not being prosecuted for an offence does not make it any less illegal to commit that offence just that you will not be punished for that offence.

[Longshot]

^ The 'point of putting them in there' is to ensure that entitled groups (those with the 'specific defences') are not prosecuted, but not being prosecuted for something is not the same as not having committed an offence.

 

What jcheeseright is suggesting is also my interpretation of the law. The VCRA clearly defines importation of a RIF as an offence. Therefore it is illegal. It then goes on to note that those groups who have a specific defence against prosecution will not be prosecuted for this offence if they can demonstrate such as defence (such as the much touted 'airsoft defence' which is not one of those defences found in the original VCRA anyway but was later added here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/20072606.htm).

 

The fact that you will not be prosecuted for an act does not mean that act wasn't an offence, and therefore against the law. It may render it 'de facto legal,' in as much as you can seemingly do something illegal whilst knowing you won't be prosecuted for it, but that doesn't actually make the act any less of an offence.

 

The term you used yourself, "answered for," highlights this; you can't answer a question if the question hasn't first been asked, and you can't answer for an offence with a defence against prosecution unless you have first committed an offence.

[jcheeseright]

more to the point, the OP doesn't have any kind of defence and therefore WOULD be breaking the law if he were to import a RIF.

[JapaneseMafia]

 

To clarify. Below are the exact definitions of legal terms for UK law:

 

Illegal - something prohibited, or not authorised by law.

 

Guilty - having been found to have violated a criminal law.

 

Offence - a breach of a rule of law.

 

Specific Defence - a defence suitable to answer for a specified offence in any legislation.

 

Shall - must, will be, is

 

Subject to - bound or constrained by

 

So, when Section 37 of the VCR Act states that:

 

37 Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

 

(1) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct...

 

This pertains to:

 

36:

 

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

 

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

 

( b ) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

( c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

 

(2) Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37.

 

(note the IF in the preceding bit. More importantly, note that at the end of the list of offences, it states that they are subject to the defences in Section 37, which means, in legal terms, that these defences are caveats to the Law, and the law is limited in scope by those caveats)

 

So let's break this down. Adherence to the Specific Defences listed in Section 37, means that any of those listed are a defence suitable to answer for a potential offence in question. Thus the legislation does not extend to the point where any of those actions are deemed an offence. And if something is suitable to answer to an offence, then anyone who can legitimately use such a Specific Defence will not be found to have done something prohibited by law, therefore they cannot by definition have done anything illegal. This means their actions must therefore be legal, so they cannot be guilty of an offence. This is why specific defences are listed in UK Acts of Parliament, to clarify how and when the law applies. The UK Government do not put these in the legislation because they were bored when drafting it and wanted to pad it out a bit, or thought it might be fun to have them in there, they are part of the legislation to clarify its boundaries exactly, otherwise it would be completely pointless to put them in there.

 

more to the point, the OP doesn't have any kind of defence and therefore WOULD be breaking the law if he were to import a RIF.

 

I was thinking what if I were to modifiy the RIF into an IF in the country of purchase and then import it into the UK? That sounds like it could work?