Aaarghh! Another problem. .23 gram BB's jamming

[Snakeeyes75]

Hi all, I've just been messing about with my G&G T4 18, I've tried using some .23 Blaster BB's and there's a couple issues! First I can't put anywhere near as many BB's in my 130 round mid cap (MAG) mags, it's actually quite hard to push them in compaired to .20 gram balls using a G&G speed loader. I reckon I can put in about 90 max. When firing I'm getting loads of "Derps" and jams. Then all of a sudden it works fine! If I swap back to .20's it works faultlessly! Any ideas??

[Ian_Gere]

That is very weird. There should be no difference in their behaviour in the mag whatsoever as they should be the same 5.95 +/-0.01mm spheroid as 0.2's. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that you have got a bottle of rejects somehow...

 

Can you try them in a different gun?

[Snakeeyes75]

That is very weird. There should be no difference in their behaviour in the mag whatsoever as they should be the same 5.95 +/-0.01mm spheroid as 0.2's. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that you have got a bottle of rejects somehow...

 

Can you try them in a different gun?

Unfortunately I only have access to the one at the mo'. I have 8 Mag mags, I'm noticing some really inconsistent feeds throughout. The .20's have no issues. I also just tried a hi cap (The one that came with) and it seems to be fine so it's pointing to the mags?

[Sitting Duck]

I have 8,000 poxy bastid Fireball 0.25's the exact same....

 

1 out of 3 shots you get a "Jimmy" or raspberry bb dribble out or fall 20ft short

Go back to another brand - lovely consistent again.

Ain't just one gun but all I have tried them in - so got a batch of duff lemon reject bb's

not jammed - yet but maybe only use these in say a co2 pistol or perhaps sniper if barrel not too tight

 

weird though you getting less.25's in mag than .20's but thinking about it

if they are not true and quite irregular then I suppose unless you are Black Death

& built like brick $hit house - you ain't pushing many more down there if they start

to snag a lot more than the more true 0.20's - yup I'm going with that theory

[Moose87]

blasters are known for being pretty good, blaster devils are even better. but yer im in agreement it shouldnt effect the amount you get in a mag. i have never had a jam using blasters. must be a duff batch.

[Snakeeyes75]

Ok, Here's what i've tried! I loaded up the Hi cap that came with the gun and it fires both the .20 & .23's without issue. If I try the "Mag" 130r mid caps, the .20's work fine the .23's fire about 50:50 fine or derp/s or just doesn't fire (I wouldn't say "Jam" as the sound it makes is the same dry fire sound. So it looks like the Mag's are the issue but as it has been pointed out, that shouldn't matter should it? I tried a very crude test with 5 balls of each size and a metal ruler, i placed the BB's on the kitchen worktop and using a ruler on top just rolled them around, the .23's (Light green) moved wheras the .20's didn't so there's definately a size difference.

 

 

Could this just be a "Breaking the mag in" issue? I noticed on youtube a guy taking the feeding head (?) off to make it feed better

[Ian_Gere]

Taking the plastic head, or mag follower as it's known, off the top of the spring ought not to do anything - there is not enough space in the feed tube for the BB's to go anywhere but up, but there is just the possibility that the spring could poke out of the feed tube and get jammed there - they don't put extra bits of plastic in places where you can't see 'em just for show.

 

You could try putting a single drop of silicone oil down the feed tube: let them stand upright for a few mins to let the oil run down inside a bit then fill one with BB's - release the catch and let them spray out into a bag, then use the same BB's to fill each mag. Don't fire them though or you'll be putting oil onto your hop rubber. When you've done them all, either keep those oiled BB's in a labelled bag for next time you need to oil mags or throw them away. It may be that the surface of the .23's is not as smooth as the .2's. I don't honestly think so, but you never know... that is what I do with new midcaps anyway and I can always get more BB's in them after doing so.

[Snakeeyes75]

Taking the plastic head, or mag follower as it's known, off the top of the spring ought not to do anything - there is not enough space in the feed tube for the BB's to go anywhere but up, but there is just the possibility that the spring could poke out of the feed tube and get jammed there - they don't put extra bits of plastic in places where you can't see 'em just for show.

 

You could try putting a single drop of silicone oil down the feed tube: let them stand upright for a few mins to let the oil run down inside a bit then fill one with BB's - release the catch and let them spray out into a bag, then use the same BB's to fill each mag. Don't fire them though or you'll be putting oil onto your hop rubber. When you've done them all, either keep those oiled BB's in a labelled bag for next time you need to oil mags or throw them away. It may be that the surface of the .23's is not as smooth as the .2's. I don't honestly think so, but you never know... that is what I do with new midcaps anyway and I can always get more BB's in them after doing so.

 

Ok I'll try it! The thing that's weird is that with .20's the mags work amazing! no issues whatsoever. I've ordered up some .28 Devil Blaster BB's as I've been told that they are very cool with the T4, I'm beginning to think that this is more a BB sizing issue than the mag issue. The fact that even my speedloader feels crunchy when filling (Compaired to the .20's). Hopefully the .28's will work.

[Ian_Gere]

0.28g is too heavy for a standard AEG, unless your site allows 368 (or 370)FPS (ie 350 + 5%) - even then there'd be very little point.

 

If you're shooting 0.2's below 350FPS then you just don't have the power for that to translate into increased range with 0.28's due to mass overcoming air resistance. You will gain some accuracy, but at 50m that is actually only going to reduce your grouping size by maybe 125-50mm, which is great for target shooting and may be occasionally useful for snap shooting someone's head, but generally you will be aiming at man sized targets, often moving, wearing equipment, so effectively, like the man shaped target, 600mm wide. Bear in mind that when people stick their head out for a looksee, they don't leave it there unless they're noobs, so snap shooting is more about knowing your gun, being able to gauge wind conditions, elevation and the effects of foliage, etc without thinking about it - basically practice - and slowing shots down will not help you get peekaboo hits. The other thing to bear in mind with AEG's is that you don't need to make every shot count, you can correct your aim 300ms later just seeing the 1st BB in flight, before it gets near the target, but then much better when you see where any misses go. Trust me, as someone who has had to change game style due to ill health, trying to get single shots to hit first time is a whole different style of play and not one which an ordinary AEG is suited to.

 

If you have a burning desire to see what more expensive BB's can do for your gun, buy some 0.25 Bastards from Patrol Base.

[Snakeeyes75]

0.28g is too heavy for a standard AEG, unless your site allows 368 (or 370)FPS (ie 350 + 5%) - even then there'd be very little point.

 

If you're shooting 0.2's below 350FPS then you just don't have the power for that to translate into increased range with 0.28's due to mass overcoming air resistance. You will gain some accuracy, but at 50m that is actually only going to reduce your grouping size by maybe 125-50mm, which is great for target shooting and may be occasionally useful for snap shooting someone's head, but generally you will be aiming at man sized targets, often moving, wearing equipment, so effectively, like the man shaped target, 600mm wide. Bear in mind that when people stick their head out for a looksee, they don't leave it there unless they're noobs, so snap shooting is more about knowing your gun, being able to gauge wind conditions, elevation and the effects of foliage, etc without thinking about it - basically practice - and slowing shots down will not help you get peekaboo hits. The other thing to bear in mind with AEG's is that you don't need to make every shot count, you can correct your aim 300ms later just seeing the 1st BB in flight, before it gets near the target, but then much better when you see where any misses go. Trust me, as someone who has had to change game style due to ill health, trying to get single shots to hit first time is a whole different style of play and not one which an ordinary AEG is suited to.

 

If you have a burning desire to see what more expensive BB's can do for your gun, buy some 0.25 Bastards from Patrol Base.

 

Interesting! I'm was only buying the .28's because another forum member who has the same gun swears by them. What weight BB would you recommend as a compromise to the .20?

 

I'm still stuck with this issue over the .23's not firing/feeding

[BrightCandle]

I had the same problem with 0.25g's in the same gun. I have issues with the GR16 magazines, if I load them past 100 rounds I get quite a few poor feeds in the beginning of the magazine and its made worse by a heavier BB. The issue is almost certainly in the tappet spring strength and it seems to be a design flaw on these guns (you and I both have it). Either we both have exactly the same fault or the gun itself has a bad part. Without voiding the warranty I don't know of a way to fix it and so far I have been living with loading 100 rounds in and using 0.20g's. I am hoping fixing my hop will fix my accuracy issue I have with the gun but so far its been a disaster this T4-18 in general.

[Snakeeyes75]

I had the same problem with 0.25g's in the same gun. I have issues with the GR16 magazines, if I load them past 100 rounds I get quite a few poor feeds in the beginning of the magazine and its made worse by a heavier BB. The issue is almost certainly in the tappet spring strength and it seems to be a design flaw on these guns (you and I both have it). Either we both have exactly the same fault or the gun itself has a bad part. Without voiding the warranty I don't know of a way to fix it and so far I have been living with loading 100 rounds in and using 0.20g's. I am hoping fixing my hop will fix my accuracy issue I have with the gun but so far its been a disaster this T4-18 in general.

Hello again My first question to you is are you using the G&G mags?:

 

http://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/airsoft-magazines-c3/mid-standard-capacity-c52/g-g-g-g-120-round-mid-cap-magazine-for-gr16-m4-black-p3421

 

I tried them and basically they don't fit. Pretty much every problem that i've banged on about was sorted by switching to the MAG brand ones:

 

http://www.armysurplusandtoys.com/MAG-box-set-m16-m4-8-piece-mid-cap-130-rounds-p/mag-box-set-8-piece-.htm

 

I can fill them to bursting (135-140) and they fire off every one without issue.

 

The issue is when I try the heavier BB's i'm experiencing 2 problems:

 

1: I can't physicaly fit 130 BB's in the mag, I've tried it and the max is 110

2: When they are as full as possible i'm getting bad derping and the gun occasionally sounds like it's dry firing (Would that be an indicator that the BB has not been pushed into the hop?).

 

 

Have you tried using the HI Cap that came with it? I loaded mine up with the .23's and it works faultlessly!

[Ian_Gere]

You may have a point re the tappet plate spring, Candle, but it feels like a clutched straw of a reason, because the spring would have to be really weak for 0.05g to be the difference between it pushing the BB into the barrel and not. All the ones I've seen have been overengineered if anything.

 

I've never bothered trying to maintain the warranty on any of my new guns, but if that was important to me and the flaming thing would not work properly then i would send it back - the warranty has to be worth invoking if it's worth preserving, right?

 

BB weight choice depends on FPS and game style - if you're playing CQB then 0.2's are the way forward - they're cheap and improving max effective range and/or accuracy at long-extreme range isn't an issue. If you're going to a woodland site, or urban with plenty of outdoor action, then based on the FPS you get firing 0.2g BB's, <315, stick with 0.2's / 315-35 you may gain something from 0.23's, especially if you have a very sticky hop rubber (like a Prometheus purple or Firefly or some of the newer Asian companies' 40 deg rubber), but unless you're getting them for not much more than 0.2's i wouldn't bother (Military 1st for eg take the living piss with their prices & they don't even do bulk discounts ffs!) / >335 then except under very specific circumstances* you would be losing some effective range and accuracy at range by sticking to 0.2's / >345 you should definitely be using 0.25's / >360 you'll benefit from 0.28's in terms of bench test performance, but whether this translates into more hits in the field will be subject to many variables which have little or nothing to do with hardware / >400 0.3's but after that it gets more complex because depending on your hop type, hop rubber, cleanliness, and the air temperature and humidity you can end up having to put so much hop on to lift a heavier BB that you lose more power by straightforward mechanical retardation than you could gain through momentum at long-extreme range.

 

*For eg I have recently put a Falcon 6.03x455mm TBB in my AK-74 and the Dual Point hop rubber that comes with them - turns out that this rubber struggles to lift 0.25's, but the combination does so well with 0.2's that so far I haven't classed this as an active problem. I suspect that I will swap this barrel and rubber into my tactical AK-47 though, because that is the one which looks best with my all black CQB loadout and one thing which you will always get from heavier BB's is better resistance to being deflected by air movement (I don't say 'wind' there because anything which is strong enough to be called 'wind' will affect any BB's far more than even the most anal obsessive ridiculously priced upgrades can, which is a fact which needs to be born in mind whenever we consider upping our expenditure - is what we are going to get actually worth it when we forget the theory and try to get some hits with the blasted thing/s?).

[Snakeeyes75]

Thanks for the Response Ian, I understand what you're saying, I'm still very new to this so I'm combining word of mouth with the science behind it all. The main reason I was going to use a heavier BB was due to the effects of the wind...sorry, I mean "Resistance" hehe.

 

I called two of the big UK retailers today and had quite a lengthy chat with both. Each said in their own way that it sounds like i've picked up a batch of bad BB's, apparently the "Blaster" .23's aren't a widely sold size as most people favour the .25. (Aplogies if this is wrong, just passing on what I was told). They also said that if I really wanted the .23's that it'd be worth trying a different make (No they didn't try to sell me any). The fact that I can only jam in 110 BB's in my mid cap compaired to the 130+ of the .2's means there's something off with the size! Both companies also told me that mid caps in general are way more reliable if you just fill them with approx 100 balls despite what their capacity is supposed to be. I tried this with the .23's and they seem to be feeding WAY better! The tappet spring probably isn't working as it should but it's not down to a fault but the force of the spring pushing too hard on the nozzle. (Again, that was explained to me). The fact that the .2's have no issues surely means there's no problems with the mechanics of the gun? Surely the weight is irrelevant it's more the size that seems to be causing an issue and again, with a hi cap they feed fine! It's only with the mid cap that I get the issue.

[jcheeseright]

why are you using .23s anyway? I wouldn't advise shooting anything lighter than .25, go as heavy as your hop-up can lift and your wallet can handle.

[Sitting Duck]

you are kind of diagnosing your own problem like has been said

 

seems it is mainly down to a dodgy batch - like my fireball .25's they feed $hit

the mag could be a little more fussy as the bb's are loaded/forced into it than

poured in hi-cap

and finally some guns - lets be fair no two things are the exact same, could be

a little bit more picky than others - a slightly tighter bore is gonna be more prone

to jamming with $hit bb's than a much looser bore so to speak....

 

90% of ya problems do seem to point to crap bb's I reckon so alas get some others

maybe you might find a gun like a CO2 pistol that might be ok with them or see if you

can return them but like those cheapo free bb's you sometimes get with low-end guns

your current batch of bb's sound like they are $HIT

[Snakeeyes75]

why are you using .23s anyway? I wouldn't advise shooting anything lighter than .25, go as heavy as your hop-up can lift and your wallet can handle.

 

This is where I get confused, Ian_Gere 's post leads me to believe that the .2's are the best choice, I've chrono'd the gun at 335fps so on paper the .25's are too heavy. I'm inclined to go with what you're saying but so far everyone is telling me something completely different! From my original post the question that I suppose I'm asking is "Is it possible that the BB's are bad?", from what is being said, yes!

[jcheeseright]

People get hung up on 'flight time' and their PERCEPTION of how long it takes a BB to reach the target. A 0.25g BB will not get to a person 50 yards away any slower (it'll actually get there a fraction of a second quicker!) than a 0.20g BB, even though the muzzle velocity is lower, heavier BBs are more accurate and travel further (providing your hop-up can effectively lift them).

 

I've been trialling .30g in my M4 which only shoots 340fps with a .20, the difference in consistency at distance between 'slower' .30g and 'faster' .20g is significant.

 

If anyone reading this needs further information, there's lots here:
http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/07-b-06.htm

As you can see in the velocity vs distance chart, the crossover point is at about 50', at which point all 3 of the weights are doing about 175fps, before which the .20 is clearly going faster... but probably not noticeably so, after that the heavier BBs retain their velocity MUCH better, something you'll definitely see at the far end of your rifle's range.

[jcheeseright]

actually, this chart is a bit more relevant as it assumes a muzzle velocity of 350fps with a .20

 

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/07-b-07.htm

[Ian_Gere]

actually, this chart is a bit more relevant as it assumes a muzzle velocity of 350fps with a .20

 

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/07-b-07.htm

That is pretty interesting, James. I've added the yellow line here...

...to highlight the results at 50 yards.

Nevermind the difference between 0.2's and the rest - we knew that, but the difference between 0.3's and 0.25's at only 1.14J surprises me - approx. 0.0625s / the maths is pretty simple - a person can sprint for short bursts at about 10m/s which means that...

 

@50yds in the time it takes for a shot to reach them a person can move 62.5cm further if the shot is a .25g BB compared to .3g

 

That's significant - it's just over the width of a man sized target!

 

That has me thinking I'm going to have to see how my own guns compare because, of course, the results are dependant on the hop set up performing well, ie lifting the BB without pressing on it so much that it reduces the velocity more than the benefits.

 

As a general rule however I would still say that if a gun gets less than 335FPS with 0.2's you're probably best sticking with 0.2's, especially if it is a stock gun. If you've upgraded the hop rubber, based on those^^ figures, it's got to be worth seeing how well it performs with 0.25's. I've tried 0.23's in Sabine, my tac AK, which has had a few different rubbers and, as is not surprising for me, I can't remember which was in her at the time - I didn't notice much difference: about 1.5-2m further effective range / now I am all about screwing as much range as possible out of my guns and i do, for eg, think it's worth trying to get as close to 350FPS as poss, so long as it's consistent, rather than accepting the 330-ish you get on average from an M100 spring, but you have to draw a line somewhere and i draw it at approx 5m improvement. I don't remember thinking the accuracy was better, but she's always been pretty good anyway, even right out of the box.

 

The clincher though is price - they're just not common enough for anyone to be buying in sufficient bulk in the UK for the price to come down. That said taiwangun.com (based in Poland so EU = no import tax) sell P&J 0.23g BB's & they're on -15% sale right now = €2.93 for 3000 I have only tried P&J 0.32's and they are ok, although I prefer Blaster Devils 0.3's for sniping accuracy / i did buy a bag of white 0.4's from ASPUK a while ago and i think they are P&J, but i can't remember for sure and i can't be arsed to go find them, but i haven't actually tried them yet anyway; as a rule of thumb though ASPUK don't sell shit. Taiwangun do bulk prices too so 25Kg on -8% sale is €138.55, but they also do free shipping on orders over approx €69 so you could get 72,000 for €70.16 all in. Dunno how long the sale will last - their discounts don't seem to be for set times, but it may be worth trying out 3000 and, if they're ok, maybe go halves with someone.

 

Blaster are a good brand, but that doesn't mean that mistakes don't happen - you're right that your problems sound like it must be the shape. The tip about not stuffing midcaps completely full is a good one in my experience, but something you said above is also important - that when you get a jam it sounds like dry firing. That tells us there is no BB in the hop unit, or it would sound duller. For some reason they are not feeding. What I think whomever you spoke to was trying to explain about strong tappet plate springs causing misfeeds is that, with high rates of fire, the air nozzle can spring back into place before the next BB has been able to pop up ready to be pushed into the barrel. The way to prevent this is what is called a tappet plate delayer, or 'delayer chip', which is a little circle of brass or piece of plastic which clamps onto the peg on the sector gear to keep the tappet plate in its withdrawn position for a few milliseconds longer. The thing is that the weight of the BB should make no difference to this effect and whether they are coming out of a hicap or midcap shouldn't make much difference either (although there is a small difference in the strength of spring pressure pushing the BB's up).

[Snakeeyes75]

Thanks for the in-depth reply, this is all a good read! In regards to the last paragraph, the dry firing is happening even in Semi auto I've adjusted my firing style so i'm not "Snatching" the trigger as much and correctly squeezing. Hopefully i'll be getting a bottle of .25's later today so I can see how they work.

 

 

There's something else I've just noticed, maybe this is how it's supposed to be? When you fire on semi, the nozzle retracts the whole way, when you fire on full auto it seems to end it's cycle with the nozzle out, not all the time but more often than not. if you switch it then back to semi the first shot doesn't move the nozzle but from the second one it does. Again, I'm new to this so go lightly

[Ian_Gere]

Well it's good to pass on stuff people passed on to me and the bits i've picked up for myself; paying it forward, etc. but also i'm not a well man so rabbiting online helps take my mind off what would otherwise be a fucking depressing situation so yeah, you're welcome!

 

The reason the nozzle behaves like that is because when you pull the trigger on semi the motor only spins long enough for the GB to complete one cycle, no matter how long you hold the trigger down. On full-auto the motor spins until you release the trigger, so it often ends up stopping part way through a cycle, with the nozzle partially, or fully retracted. It stays that way even though the main spring is partially compressed because the anti-reversal latch does what it says, prevents the GB from spinning backwards. Come to think of it, if i ever knew if there's a mechanical reason why that would be bad I can't currently tell you, but electrically spinning the motor backwards generates a current which can damage the windings.

 

There is one other often forgotten part which we have so far... forgotten the latch of the mags. I can't think of a reason why it should behave differently for different BB weights, but I can't think of a good reason for this phenomena full stop. It may be worth oiling them (a single drop will more than do it) and giving them a good wiggle. Obviously this catch has to function correctly for BB's to even leave the mag. It's also the case that different mags interface with the hop unit feed tube ever so slightly differently, which may be why the hicap is working. Hey, it's a theory and whilst it only holds slightly more water than a sieve, for the cost of a few drops of oil, it's worth a bash...

 

Did you try oiling the BB tubes of the midcaps?

[Snakeeyes75]

Well it's good to pass on stuff people passed on to me and the bits i've picked up for myself; paying it forward, etc. but also i'm not a well man so rabbiting online helps take my mind off what would otherwise be a f*cking depressing situation so yeah, you're welcome!

 

The reason the nozzle behaves like that is because when you pull the trigger on semi the motor only spins long enough for the GB to complete one cycle, no matter how long you hold the trigger down. On full-auto the motor spins until you release the trigger, so it often ends up stopping part way through a cycle, with the nozzle partially, or fully retracted. It stays that way even though the main spring is partially compressed because the anti-reversal latch does what it says, prevents the GB from spinning backwards. Come to think of it, if i ever knew if there's a mechanical reason why that would be bad I can't currently tell you, but electrically spinning the motor backwards generates a current which can damage the windings.

 

There is one other often forgotten part which we have so far... forgotten the latch of the mags. I can't think of a reason why it should behave differently for different BB weights, but I can't think of a good reason for this phenomena full stop. It may be worth oiling them (a single drop will more than do it) and giving them a good wiggle. Obviously this catch has to function correctly for BB's to even leave the mag. It's also the case that different mags interface with the hop unit feed tube ever so slightly differently, which may be why the hicap is working. Hey, it's a theory and whilst it only holds slightly more water than a sieve, for the cost of a few drops of oil, it's worth a bash...

 

Did you try oiling the BB tubes of the midcaps?

 

Sorry to hear you're in a bad way, believe me when I say you've been a great help with getting this sorted

 

As frustrating as it may be I don't think my new bottle of BB's are going to turn up today so it'll now have to wait till tomorrow. I've used a digital caliper on a couple of those .23's and they reading as 5.92-5.94 mm compared with the .2's that are coming out at 5.88-5.89. I assume all the time it's under 6mm they should be working fine?

 

I've put a small amount of oil in the tubes, not done the latch though so that's be next

[Snakeeyes75]

Just a quick follow up, I recieved a bottle of Blaster .25's today, I'm pleased to say that this has resolved the issue Crazy that I have a duff pot? are there batch numbers on the bottles at all? (I can't see one) as it may help others to know what batch this came from!

[Ian_Gere]

Where did you buy the 0.23g Blasters from?