Bayonets

[Baz JJ]

Ive decided to carry a knife (Cold Steel Santoprene training version) for the potential for knife kills where allowed.

 

The problem with Cold Steel training knives is that they are physically large and its not easy to find a sheath for them for added realism.

 

Looking around, I came across Airsoft bayonets.

 

Modern armies still carry bayonets, but to me, they never look right on a modern assault rifle. The old style "stick it to them Tommy" on the end of a Lee Enfield doesn't seem to translate on a shorter assault rifle. Surely warfare tactics have changed ?

 

This puts you VERY close to the enemy - at least the old WW2 rifles kept you out of arms reach.

[jcheeseright]

Troops in Afghanistan have fixed bayonets many times in recent years, when it gets that close it's better to have the knife on the end if the gun than in your hand!

[TacMaster]

In a survival situation where you run out of rounds, it's better to have the bayonet on your rifle and acting as a spear, rather than in your hand and having to be used as a knife.

[Baz JJ]

The question is not whether a bayonet is preferable to a knife.

 

My reference to the knife was purely anecdotal and how I got thinking about bayonets.

 

A quick google brought up this

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/10/obama_says_military_has_fewer_horses_and_bayonets_does_the_u_s_military.html

 

There is also a difference between being equipped and trained with a bayonet and it actually being useful in modern combat for a bayonet charge or even hand to hand combat.

 

Having watched bayonets being used on a modern assault rifle,you are pretty close to your opponent and probably within their arms reach when you attack. The old rifles of the Second World War kept you a safer distance away. Additionally, the fire rates and magazine size then gave you more of a fighting chance. Also the angle of attack is not very flexible and modern plate armour might deflect a bayonet attack on the conventional target areas of below the ribcage. The military may well defend the reasons for having bayonets in this era of budget cuts - never refuse any tool or weapon offered by the treasury, but in my mind its arguable how useful they are in a traditional sense.

 

They are great for training and teaching controlled agression.

[Chippins]

That's only assuming that the enemy will be wearing any form of modern body armor, which our enemies at the moment aren't. At the end of the day if I personally ran out of ammo/got into a cqc fight I'd want a long pointy thing that can also be used to club and grapple than a short pointy thing which imo is much much easier to have ripped out of your grip in a scrap.

 

Either way how can you not think that this looks badass:

 

Although, with all that said our issue bayonets are of pretty bad quality

[Baz JJ]

Its not about looking badass in real life though is it ?

 

If bayonets are such a good idea on a modern assault rifle, I question why I don't I see more Airsofters fitting them ?

 

Knife/bayonet kills are allowed in many games and stoppages and running out of ammo pretty prevalent in Airsoft as well as real life.

 

The armed forces have to do what they are told by the brass. Airsofters can choose their weapons freely.

[WorcesterAirsoftRegiment1]

Where we play, you can only make a knife kill by tapping the victim with the side of the "knife".

All I can assume is that bayonets are very impractical on a rifle in airsoft, because you then have to hold your rifle at a funny angle to make the kill? Bayonets are mostly used in a 'stabbing' action, but that would be considered too dangerous in airsoft, even though its rubber.

[Mike636]

Well for one if you could find a bayonet that fit if you did charge up to somebody and rammed it into them its going to really do some physical damage, not within the realms of airsofting either , could easily crack a rib!

[Baz JJ]

well yes you could seriously hurt somebody if:

 

you rammed them hard with a rubber bayonet

you jabbed them with a plastic knife

you shot them from five feet away

 

The sniper who crept up on me last game probably could have done at least two out of three but didnt.

 

its all down to a little common sense.

 

touching somebody with a plastic knife isn't much different to a rubber bayonet i.e. you touch or tap, not stab.

 

Hardly a reason not to fit if they really are that useful.

[WorcesterAirsoftRegiment1]

My last post came across as though I didn't think it was dangerous - I do!

I meant it would be impractical to position your weapon to do a 'bayonet-tap' kill.

[Ian_Gere]

I've got a Cold Steel Black Bear - it's a bit ridiculous really, but it does look uber in one hand with a pistol in the other, lol! Fits pretty well in a DPM British bayonet frog, which isn't so surprising because it's pretty similar in size and shape to an L1A1 bayonet.

 

I really want a plastic AK bayonet, but the only good one i've seen costs a bloody fortune. If anyone spots one, pls let me know.

[jcheeseright]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9571522/Soldier-who-led-Afghanistan-bayonet-charge-into-hail-of-bullets-honoured.html

 

used, and useful. I guarantee that if you try and go hand to hand against someone holding a rifle with a bayonet on the end you will lose. They can stab you from about 4' away, you have to get inside their reach to do anything.

[Longshot]

I can't believe that the OP here is actually being this obtuse.

 

You are not likely to use a bayonet on someone if you have rounds in your gun; you would shoot them. You are not likely to use a bayonet on someone if they have rounds in their gun; they would shoot you. The bayonet is likely to be used when you and the enemy are both out of rounds. Now at that point, when it comes down to who gets a good stab in first, I'm pretty sure that most people would rather have the length and solidity of 2' of steel (even on the shortest of carbines) behind their 6" inch knife rather than just a 6" knife in their hands, because in that situation the guy with the long pointy thing is likely to beat the guy with the short pointy thing.

 

The whole argument of 'well then why don't we do it in airsoft?' is a bit silly for many reasons, but the most obvious is the question: when was the last time you had a knife fight in airsoft?

[Chippins]

as said above, the reason you don't see many airsoft ones fitted is because they are impractical for use. We're not actually trying to kill each other, so a knife is just easier in that respect. and a floppy bit of rubber on the end of your gun isn't exactly adding to the 'realism'.

[Baz JJ]

Of course you are all welcome to your opinions. This is a discussion.

 

I have an open mind and would be very interested to hear from any currently serving servicemen who do Airsoft and have experience of both sides.

 

 

Ian, the only bayonet I seen fixed in Airsoft was on an AK. In fact, the guy is in my safe zone section and the first I knew of it was a feeling between the shoulder blades. It hurt no more than somebody digging their finger in my back. I don't know where he got it from, but I will ask him. I would be surprised if he paid a lot of money for it.

 

Ive got the Cold Steel Leatherneck. The point isnt really - its very wide.

 

I've got a Cold Steel Black Bear - it's a bit ridiculous really, but it does look uber in one hand with a pistol in the other, lol! Fits pretty well in a DPM British bayonet frog, which isn't so surprising because it's pretty similar in size and shape to an L1A1 bayonet.

 

I really want a plastic AK bayonet, but the only good one i've seen costs a bloody fortune. If anyone spots one, pls let me know.

[Longshot]

I've got one of these types:

 

http://www.actionhobbies.co.uk/ACM-M4-M16-Rubber-Bayonet-Knife_A11NLK.aspx#.UiDgX8u9KSM

 

I generally just hang it from my belt for looks, though it is capable of attaching to ARs as a bayonet (though none of my ARs have the standard 'A' type front sight that it actually needs to attach it!). I have got a couple of knife kills in the past with it, though to be honest I generally just draw my pistol in those ranges and double tap.

 

If, however, in some very strange long running airsoft game I managed to run out of ammo for both my rifle and pistol and I was wondering around with just my knife and I happened across someone in exactly the same situation and he said: "hey boy, I gots me a Cold Steel knife right here. Lets you and me have us a knife fight," I would, if I could, stick the knife on the end of my rifle as a bayonet before commencing that particular fight. Having had some training with a spear against someone with a sword I'm pretty sure I know how that fight would turn out.

[Baz JJ]

My experience of bayonets fixed is you only tend to get one shot at it. The momentum of the rifle lunge means that if the opponent is able to deflect or dodge the initial attack, the assailant is then off balance with his opponent suddenly inside the radius of the bayonet. Psychologically the user of the bayonet is reluctant to let go of his gun because he has been drilled not to and the knife wielding opponent has a number of ways of thrusting up or down behind armour, back of neck or under the rib cage now that he is between the fixed bayonet and its owner. Gaining increased control of the attack by gripping the bayonet equipped rifle in his free hand, the knife user has the opportunity to make quite a few wounds with his blade before the rifleman recovers the situation.

[Baz JJ]

Er, I am, just without hurting them :-)

 

We're not actually trying to kill each other, so a knife is just easier in that respect.

[Ian_Gere]

Of course you are all welcome to your opinions. This is a discussion.

 

I have an open mind and would be very interested to hear from any currently serving servicemen who do Airsoft and have experience of both sides.

 

 

Ian, the only bayonet I seen fixed in Airsoft was on an AK. In fact, the guy is in my safe zone section and the first I knew of it was a feeling between the shoulder blades. It hurt no more than somebody digging their finger in my back. I don't know where he got it from, but I will ask him. I would be surprised if he paid a lot of money for it.

 

Ive got the Cold Steel Leatherneck. The point isnt really - its very wide.

 

This is what I'm on about:

...but anything like the common or garden ACM M4 bayonet in the right shape would do I spose, because I could always put it in a RS frog.

[Baz JJ]

That looks reasonable visual quality which I guess is why it is so expensive.

 

The Cold Steel stuff looks okay but is as blunt as hell, which is a good thing for Airsoft use.

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I'm on about:

 

 

...but anything like the common or garden ACM M4 bayonet in the right shape would do I spose, because I could always put it in a RS frog.

[Ian_Gere]

My experience of bayonets fixed is you only tend to get one shot at it. The momentum of the rifle lunge means that if the opponent is able to deflect or dodge the initial attack, the assailant is then off balance with his opponent suddenly inside the radius of the bayonet. Psychologically the user of the bayonet is reluctant to let go of his gun because he has been drilled not to and the knife wielding opponent has a number of ways of thrusting up or down behind armour, back of neck or under the rib cage now that he is between the fixed bayonet and its owner. Gaining increased control of the attack by gripping the bayonet equipped rifle in his free hand, the knife user has the opportunity to make quite a few wounds with his blade before the rifleman recovers the situation.

TBH I think that's film & TV talking. In a fight you can move stuff very quickly and a fit'n'healthy squaddie would have no trouble moving their rifle and bayonet back and forth several times in the space of time that the classic 'lunge' takes. You could also always use a modern bayonet, which unlike its forerunners is sharp bladed, to slash at the enemy while pulling back for another go at stabbing them.

 

Personally I think I'd be inclined to use an entrenching tool in my left hand, to parry, and a bayonet in my right to distract, while the actual attack would come from a swift kick in the kneecap or my helmetted forehead right across the bridge of the nose... but then again, I haven't been trained to fight with a rifle.

[Longshot]

My experience of bayonets fixed is you only tend to get one shot at it. The momentum of the rifle lunge means that if the opponent is able to deflect or dodge the initial attack, the assailant is then off balance with his opponent suddenly inside the radius of the bayonet. Psychologically the user of the bayonet is reluctant to let go of his gun because he has been drilled not to and the knife wielding opponent has a number of ways of thrusting up or down behind armour, back of neck or under the rib cage now that he is between the fixed bayonet and its owner. Gaining increased control of the attack by gripping the bayonet equipped rifle in his free hand, the knife user has the opportunity to make quite a few wounds with his blade before the rifleman recovers the situation.

I'm not sure what your experience of bayonets is, but if anyone who has been trained in any spear type weapon, including a rifle with bayonet, manages to fly forward that much on their thrust then they are not doing it right, and certainly not doing it as trained. The training (like any striking art) emphasises the importance of grounding your feet to create balance and power in the thrust. I'm not saying that when the adrenaline is up and you're doing your 'war face' you won't overcommit a little, but the other guy is going to have to be pretty calm and ninja to just step off to the side and open you up.

 

Here is a video of the US Army training it:

 

 

Here is one of the British Army training it:

 

 

The idea in any case is to use the advantage of range and keep you out of the enemies attack area while keeping him in yours. You only need to put an inch or two in him, not the whole bayonet followed by the rifle too. Effective aggression is controlled, it's not just jumping forward.

 

 

[Ian_Gere]

The poor lambs! I thought some of 'em were going to cry

[Longshot]

The poor lambs! I thought some of 'em were going to cry

It did all get a little emotional there didn't it? There were also some good examples of where technique can go a little out the window!

[Ian_Gere]

Yeah, technique lol! I wonder if any of the Taliban have watched martial arts films? Probly not...

 

Just as well, or the old 'sweep the leading leg from under an over-committed opponent' trick would see a lot of those babbies with something to cry about...