Pointman PUG Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Hi folks...quick question! so I was thinking of speeding up the rate of fire for my gun and I was looking at some gear sets on eBay....problem is im clueless as to what gear ratios to get! Do you go for small (13/1 I think is the smallest ive seen) or do you go large (18/1 is about the largest ive seen) for rate of fire!? Also what problems might I encounter doing this and will my standard piston take it!? Any recomendations of brands will be appreciated. just for info its going in a g and g gr 15 raider short thanks all :-) ohh also its the pneumatic blow back version of gearbox...incase that makes a difference!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 22, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 22, 2013 18:1 is the normal ratio for most guns. As a rule if thumb the lower the numbers the higher the rof but the motor will not produce much torque (so no big springs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted May 22, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 22, 2013 Sp00n nailed it. High speed gears are anything between 13 and 18:1 high torque goes from 18 to 28:1.I'd say that generally there's not really much need to swap out the gears, but if you want to, don't alter the ratio by more than 2, unless it's a mentally serious, hardcore build. I can get about 25 rounds per second with a 9.9v battery, M100 spring, high torque motor and standard 18:1 gearing.I can't begin to imagine how mental my rof would be with 13:1 and a high speed motor, but I'm not sure how the pulling power really factors into it. I guess you could compare it to gears on a push bike. Low gear = low ratio. Super easy to pedal and the parts move super fast, but you don't get very far very fast, which is akin to having a weak spring. High gear = high ratio. Hard to pedal and the parts move slow, but you go a lot further a lot faster, which is akin to having a heavy as hell spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshcowin Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 i spoke to a guy last year who fitted these to his gun http://www.airsoftworld.net/modify-quantum-gear-set.html spend alot on it like a short stroke piston,piston head,cylinder,cylinder head,spring guide,spring,new wiring etc and that was shooting at 58rps on a 11.1v lipo which is insane,it was only shooting 295fps but i wouldnt like to get in the way of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 22, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 22, 2013 Sp00n nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 Thanks guys! as far as I know I have a standard spring (m 90) but im not sure of the motor...g and g own motor I guess....not checked on the specs of motors yet to see what will match....I have a standard barrel for now and I dont know if a 6.01 barrel will bring up the fps too much(I hit 320 fps on the chrono with standard barrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted May 23, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 23, 2013 You can get +40fps from a 6.01mm TBB, it depends on how good the seals are between the air nozzle & cylinder head, air nozzle & hop rubber, and hop rubber & barrel. If you're getting 320FPS from a M90 spring then your air seals must be really excellent. I'm wondering if you actually have an M100 spring with average seals? Either way you might be better off with a 6.03mm TBB, if you need to come in under 350fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 You can get +40fps from a 6.01mm TBB, it depends on how good the seals are between the air nozzle & cylinder head, air nozzle & hop rubber, and hop rubber & barrel. If you're getting 320FPS from a M90 spring then your air seals must be really excellent. I'm wondering if you actually have an M100 spring with average seals? Either way you might be better off with a 6.03mm TBB, if you need to come in under 350fps.nice one dude...but I was thinking of short stroking the piston so a 6.01 might help with the loss of compression from the shorter piston stroke....just some stuff im throwing around to see if it works! if the wife gives me the nod I'll video the before and after and post it on youtube! this my plan so far deans connectors (ordered) 16 awg low res silicone wire (ordered) ascu or mosfet 13/1 gear ratios 6.01 tightbore barrell (PDI preferred) 8mm bearings ( if they fit or 6mm otherwise) im sure there are lots more needed to make a RELIABLE gearbox...but ill come accross them as I research the full build....or you good folks inform me of what is possible!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted May 23, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 23, 2013 I can recommend Kanzen steel bearings. I haven't tried the ceramic ones but I wouldn't be surprised if they are about as good as gearbox bearings can get without getting CERN to make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Cheers ian...will have a look!!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Sp00n nailed it. High speed gears are anything between 13 and 18:1 high torque goes from 18 to 28:1. I'd say that generally there's not really much need to swap out the gears, but if you want to, don't alter the ratio by more than 2, unless it's a mentally serious, hardcore build. I can get about 25 rounds per second with a 9.9v battery, M100 spring, high torque motor and standard 18:1 gearing. I can't begin to imagine how mental my rof would be with 13:1 and a high speed motor, but I'm not sure how the pulling power really factors into it. I guess you could compare it to gears on a push bike. Low gear = low ratio. Super easy to pedal and the parts move super fast, but you don't get very far very fast, which is akin to having a weak spring. High gear = high ratio. Hard to pedal and the parts move slow, but you go a lot further a lot faster, which is akin to having a heavy as hell spring. thanks guys....so if im running a low ratio gear set (13/1) will I need a high TORQUE motor rather than a high speed motor.....in my head I figured this to be the other way round for some reason!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 24, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 24, 2013 thanks guys....so if im running a low ratio gear set (13/1) will I need a high TORQUE motor rather than a high speed motor.....in my head I figured this to be the other way round for some reason!! You can run a high speed motor with high speed gears, just make sure the motor is a good quality item and is rated for it. That said I am running standard guarder gears, a guarder m100 spring, guarder bearings/shims/spring guide, and a g&p high speed m120 motor in my mp5k, I don't know what the rof is, but I need a tappet delay plate as its just not feeding bbs in fast enough (I am told that I "should" get around 22 bbs per sec from this setup though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted May 24, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 24, 2013 If you have a read of Ed's recent adventures in gearbox-land you'll see that it's not quite as simple as 'good motor will work with any gears'. I totally forget the thread title but it wasn't long ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 24, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 24, 2013 If you have a read of Ed's recent adventures in gearbox-land you'll see that it's not quite as simple as 'good motor will work with any gears'. I totally forget the thread title but it wasn't long ago... ed was using hi torque gears with a high torque motor, and iirc he was displeased at the trigger response also i did say " is rated for it" with regards to the motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted May 24, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 24, 2013 Yeah Sp00n, I wasn't meaning to suggest you are a pillock or anything; just pointing PUG to a thread in which these issues have been discussed recently. I think you're right about Ed's problem, but I'm sure we went into some detail about the whole subject. I spotted Burst Wizard King Kong Mosfets on sale somewhere recently PUG. Probably Airsoft World (my memory is so sh!t) - down £5 to £25 with your choice of connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Nice one Ian....just stripped and rewired my gearbox and cable for 16 awg....but like a twat I bought the wrong size heatshrink!!! And also put deans on rather than tamiya...will let everyone know tomorrow if it worked or im a dreamer that just cant solder!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 24, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 24, 2013 Yeah Sp00n, I wasn't meaning to suggest you are a pillock or anything; just pointing PUG to a thread in which these issues have been discussed recently. I think you're right about Ed's problem, but I'm sure we went into some detail about the whole subject. I spotted Burst Wizard King Kong Mosfets on sale somewhere recently PUG. Probably Airsoft World (my memory is so sh!t) - down £5 to £25 with your choice of connectors. sorry if i came across as aggressive, it was not intended, and if you though i did, i can only apologize. The problem with the internet, you can say one thing and it can be taken in 2 completely different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted May 25, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 25, 2013 Nice one Ian....just stripped and rewired my gearbox and cable for 16 awg....but like a twat I bought the wrong size heatshrink!!! And also put deans on rather than tamiya...will let everyone know tomorrow if it worked or im a dreamer that just cant solder!!! Deans are supposed to be better. I have a pile ready to go in Jetta, my G36KV; prima facie they have less surface area of contact, but the contacts are much more solid. A major bonus is that they take up less room than either small or large Tamiya connectors. Just do your batteries too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 Right....a quick update! rewired my g and g. Gr 15 m4...not too much of a headace too do,I replaced factory wiring for 16 AWG silicone wire all the way throughout the gun as well as strip the gearbox (thats a given if your rewiring) cleaned out all the factory grease an replaced with silicone grease..I didnt re shim as I felt the shim job done at the factory was superb. I then replaced the tamiya for deans connector and re built everything again.although the g and g I have is blowback its just a few more steps than a normal v2 gearbox...I am in no way an engineer or techy (im a storeman by trade...so thick as fuck!!....although I do get to drive big ass forklifts!) I would say anyone with patience (those gears can be a pain to line up when closing the outer gearbox casing...eehhhh boys!) can do this job...just take plenty of refrence pics and have an organised workspace! right,end result.....well I cant really tell about the rate of fire...it may be feeding 1 possibly 2 bb's more a second. The single shot has improved a lot but I can still pull the trigger faster than the gun can cycle. th sound of my gun has changed....it has a more pronounced "thud" too the sound of the shot....like the piston has more force to it.....it....is....awesome!!! next up,13/1 gears and a tightbore barrell will let ya know how it goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 25, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 25, 2013 You used silicone grease on the gears? I don't want to worry you but every guide I have seen has said to use white lithium grease, I use guarder Teflon gear grease. If silicone grease is ok, I stand corrected though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted May 25, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 25, 2013 Going back to my thread from before, I can't remember the name either, but the high torque gears I had were REEAAAALLLLYYY high torque, they'd work with like 800fps springs so it's more or less impossible to get a high rof or good trigger response from them without some crazy mad gearbox modding skills that I have yet to acquire. Which is probably why they were in stock when the ones I wanted weren't...The reason I said to use a high torque motor in this situation though, is that if we go back to the bicycle analogy, using high speed gears reduces their effectiveness with heavy springs. They'll spin fast as hell with low power ones, but if you want to use an M100 or higher, you'd probably gain more from a high torque motor because it'd put back what the gears took away in turning power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 Going back to my thread from before, I can't remember the name either, but the high torque gears I had were REEAAAALLLLYYY high torque, they'd work with like 800fps springs so it's more or less impossible to get a high rof or good trigger response from them without some crazy mad gearbox modding skills that I have yet to acquire. Which is probably why they were in stock when the ones I wanted weren't... The reason I said to use a high torque motor in this situation though, is that if we go back to the bicycle analogy, using high speed gears reduces their effectiveness with heavy springs. They'll spin fast as hell with low power ones, but if you want to use an M100 or higher, you'd probably gain more from a high torque motor because it'd put back what the gears took away in turning 'power. cool....cheers ed....I plan on using my standard spring( im hitting 320 fps so it might be an m100 spring) so im hoping a high speed motor will do the business,if not ill downgrade to an m90 spring and fit a pdi tightbore 6.01 barrell and that should be good for about 25 fps...like I say I want rate of fire but still stay as close to 350 fps as possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointman PUG Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 You used silicone grease on the gears? I don't want to worry you but every guide I have seen has said to use white lithium grease, I use guarder Teflon gear grease. If silicone grease is ok, I stand corrected though. if thats true ive made a monumental schoolboy error......however every review iv'e read in airoft international they have always re-greased their gearboxes with silicone grease and light silicone oil on the piston! seriously hope this isnt an "ohhh shit what have I done" moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted May 25, 2013 Supporters Share Posted May 25, 2013 Like I have said I may be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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