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Everything posted by Longshot
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I think Glocks look horrible, but having fired, stripped and cleaned both them and M92s in real steel (along with a few other pistols) I'd pick a Glock if I only had to have one pistol. They're flawless in terms of reliability, accuracy, handling and maintenance (which is why so many law enforcement agencies, and now the British Army, are using them). That said, this is airsoft, which is basically all about having fun and looking cool, so what applies in the real world doesn't have to apply here. It's also why I have an airsoft Glock that I never use, two airsoft Berettas that I never use, and six 1911s variants that I always run on rotation. As has been mentioned, when choosing an airsoft pistol just get one that you think looks cool (so you'll look cool) and one that feels right in your hand (so you'll have fun with it).
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You have this completely wrong. Painting an IF ('two tone') and making it a RIF is illegal no matter who does it. If you have a defence (e.g. you play airsoft at a proper site) you can do it anyway and shouldn't be open to prosecution.
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^ Good post, and you're right, buying an IF or a RIF is illegal if you're under 18. I wasn't clear about that earlier. He'd have to 'acquire' an IF - gift from dad for example - then manufacture a RIF from it later.
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^ Yep, but if he's going to play airsoft with it then he has a defence to manufacture right there. Though, as you point out, nobody is ever really going to care if he has a defence anyway.
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The legal defence for 'manufacturing' has no age attached to it, so buy a two tone, play a couple of games and then spray paint the hell out of it. You get a RIF and you've done something creative!
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I don't understand why so many airsofters can't just admit the truth and say: "I dress up with other grown men and play toy soldiers with toy guns."
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I think it's widely accepted that the best sniper so far was made by Corporal Craig Harrison's mum and dad.
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Right, I know I always play 'that guy' on these threads, but just to clear a couple of things up for people... I know you're probably talking in 'practical' terms here, just just for clarity it is not illegal to own a RIF, as you point out, but it's not illegal to buy one either, so what you need a defence for, legally speaking, is selling, manufacturing or importing. 'Regular skirmisher' is technically not a defence either; I could 'skirmish regularly' on my mate's land but that wouldn't qualify me for a defence. The wording of the actual 'airsoft defence' does not include 'regular' or 'skimish' in it at all. Which leads me onto: This is true in relation to the original VCRA 2006, but a defence to be used by airsofters was added in a later related document ('VCRA 2006 Regulations 2007') due to lobbying from groups like the UKARA (and since most airsoft cannot be said to be 're-enacting'). The wording of the defence that was 'made for airsofters' is that you can sell, manufacture or import a RIF if you are providing it for: "the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation" and that this will take place at a site with third party liability insurance. That's how vague it is. Good stuff.
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You should be fine to both produce and sell. I don't believe there are laws specifically relating to parts in this country. That said, some countries, e.g. the U.S., do have restrictions on the sale and import/export of certain parts, so if you do start to sell to people abroad check local laws first.
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Your main problem with springers is that if you take them to an airsoft site you're probably not going to have a good day. Everyone is going to outgun you and outrange you (if they're just cheap springers) and even if you manage to hit somebody there's a high chance that they won't take their hit. You really would be better off investing in some sort of AEG for games.
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- 2006: The government decides (probably after a long consultative process that included reading a lot of the Daily Mail) that they can 'reduce violent crime' by banning toy guns that look 'realistic.' They decide that they can't really force everyone to give back the toy guns they already have, so they don't make owning them illegal. They also realise that nobody is probably going to realise or care if they made buying them illegal, so they don't do that either. Instead they just make it illegal to sell, import or manufacture them. They also seem to think nobody needs them for anything useful at all, though another quick consultation (this one seems to effectively been a brainstorm they made on a piece of A4) leads them to the conclusion that some people might need them, but the only people who might possibly have any decent use for realistic toy guns are people working in film, TV or stage, re-enactors or people who the Queen asked to go and buy them as part of their job. So they give these guys a 'pass,' and essentially add in to the new law that these guys will be breaking the law like everyone else, but they can't be prosecuted for doing so. The Violent Crime Reduction Act (VCRA) 2006 is passed. Job done, everyone's happy. Or so they think. - Early 2007: Airsoft retailers kick off. "Oh my days blud!" They shout. "What dem man gone done?" They (leading retailers like Zeroone, Airsoft World, Landwarrior, etc.) form a group: The United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association (UKARA), because forming a group and getting an acronym instantly makes you feel like you've got big boy pants on. They get a sit-down with the lawmakers and explain what airsoft is and how their livelihoods will be severely affected when the new law comes into play in October. The lawmakers pretend they know what UKARA are talking about whilst they're actually saying to each other: "Oh, I say! 'Airsoft?' How ridiculously absurd!" They show their confusion (and the fact that they seem to think that these UKARA chaps are some sort of tribal lords who have complete control over all airsoft events and retail in the UK) by getting the Home Secretary to add another 'defence' to the list. By the time they get round to this they've actually forgotten what airsoft is, so they just write it down as something to do with "military and law enforcement scenarios." They then reassure themselves that it's all going to be cool because the UKARA tribal council has agreed to set up a database of people they trust and they're only going to sell to them. Obviously, since the UKARA are the only people who are ever going to sell anyone realistic looking toy guns, there will never be any problems ever. - October 2007: Virtually all violent crime in the UK is ended thanks to the VCRA. - 2007-Present: 99% of airsofters have literally no clue what the VCRA and UKARA are all about. They keep arguing about what 'defences you need to buy' without realising that this makes no sense whatsoever. They quote stuff that the UKARA has made up, like "regular skirmisher," as if it was something to do with the actual law. Additionally, 99.9% of UK politicians and police also have no idea what the VCRA and UKARA are all about, however most people on airsoft forums are convinced that 'we're being watched,' 'our sport in under threat,' 'the Home Secretary has us under scrutiny,' etc. This is all true. Teresa May does nothing all day but read airsoft forums in the hope of gathering enough evidence to finally shut us down.
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Laws Regarding Buying and Selling Imitation Firearms Relevant to Airsoft As the law currently stands (and it stands on the whim of the Home Secretary): In relation to UNDER 18s: - it is legal to own an IF or a RIF - it is illegal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are under 18 - it is illegal to sell an IF or a RIF to an under 18 From 'VCRA 2006' Section 40 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40 In relation to OVER 18s: - it is legal to own an IF or a RIF - it is legal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are over 18 - it is legal to sell an IF to an over 18 - it is illegal to sell a RIF to an over 18 - it is illegal to manufacture a RIF - it is illegal to import a RIF From 'VCRA 2006' Section 36 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36 NOTE 1: if you wish to import a RIF, manufacture a RIF or sell a RIF to an over 18 you can avail yourself of a 'defence against prosecution' if you can show that you believed that you were intending to provide the RIF for "the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation" (an example of which is 'airsoft skirmishing') at a site with third party liability insurance. One way for a seller to do this is to establish that the buyer is registered with the UKARA database, though this is by no means a legal requirement or the only way for the seller to establish a defence for themselves. From 'VCRA 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007' - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/20072606.htm With further notes specific to airsoft in 'VCRA 2006 (Commencement No 3) Order 2007' - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures NOTE 2: any attempt to commit one of the offences listed as illegal above is also illegal in itself. From 'Criminal Attempts Act 1981' Section 1 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/47/section/1 NOTE 3: the defence required to manufacture a RIF is not age specific, so an under 18 should be able to do so legally as long as they can prove their defence. Acronym Glossary: IF: Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is painted over 50% in an 'unrealistic' colour - this is generally referred to as 'two tone') RIF: Realistic Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is 'realistically' coloured so as not be easily distinguishable from a real firearm) VCRA: Violent Crime Reduction Act (the most recent law which directly affects the buying and selling of imitation firearms) UKARA: United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association (a group created by leading UK airsoft retailers to easily establish a defence against prosecution for themselves when selling imitation firearms - they maintain a database of airsoft players for this purpose; to be entered on the database a player must play three games in over a two month period at a registered airsoft site)
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Right, I've numbered up your questions for easy answering! 1, It is illegal to import or manufacture RIFs, you're right. More on that on answer 3. 2, You're getting confused with 'airguns' here, and they're a different thing. I'm not fully up on airgun laws, but I believe you need to buy those face-to-face. This does not apply to airsoft guns (their power is not strong enough for them to qualify as 'airguns,' I believe). 3, Here's where it gets messy! It is illegal to sell, manufacture or import RIFs (but not to own or buy them if you're over 18) according to the VCRA 2006. This does technically mean that anyone who sells, manufactures or imports a RIF could be arrested for it. However, you wouldn't end up going to prison for this unless you were first prosecuted (taken to court, etc.). Now, there are certain 'defences against prosecution' written into the VCRA that allow some people, in some circumstances' to sell, manufacture and import RIFs. Slightly later an extra defence was written in that allows airsofters and airsoft retailers to have a defence as well. Therefore, everyone who sells, manufactures and imports any RIFs is breaking the law, but they can't be prosecuted for doing so if they meet the rather vague criteria for a defence. 4, This is also a very tricky area. Legally speaking there are a lot of areas that could cause you trouble. This is another one I'm not massively up on, but your big concerns are anyone seeing the gun and feeling in any way 'threatened' by it and also (and here's one that there have been a lot of threads about) any of your BBs leaving your property and ending up on someone else's. If one of your BBs misses/penetrates a target and then lands in someone else's garden, hit's their house, etc. there often seem to be big consequences (I believe that some people have said that it actually constitutes illegal trespass!). Anyway, hope all that helps! If you want to know more I'm about to add two more posts. The first is all about the laws regarding airsoft that you might want to read up on. The second is a timeline showing how the VCRA and UKARA came about, and therefore how businesses are getting away with importing and selling RIFs, to answer one of your questions.
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Exact wording you say? I have an app for that!: Laws Regarding Buying and Selling Imitation Firearms Relevant to Airsoft As the law currently stands (and it stands on the whim of the Home Secretary): In relation to UNDER 18s: - it is legal to own an IF or a RIF - it is illegal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are under 18 - it is illegal to sell an IF or a RIF to an under 18 From 'VCRA 2006' Section 40 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40 In relation to OVER 18s: - it is legal to own an IF or a RIF - it is legal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are over 18 - it is legal to sell an IF to an over 18 - it is illegal to sell a RIF to an over 18 - it is illegal to manufacture a RIF - it is illegal to import a RIF From 'VCRA 2006' Section 36 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36 NOTE 1: if you wish to import a RIF, manufacture a RIF or sell a RIF to an over 18 you can avail yourself of a 'defence against prosecution' if you can show that you believed that you were intending to provide the RIF for "the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation" (an example of which is 'airsoft skirmishing') at a site with third party liability insurance. One way for a seller to do this is to establish that the buyer is registered with the UKARA database, though this is by no means a legal requirement or the only way for the seller to establish a defence for themselves. From 'VCRA 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007' - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/20072606.htm With further notes specific to airsoft in 'VCRA 2006 (Commencement No 3) Order 2007' - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures NOTE 2: any attempt to commit one of the offences listed as illegal above is also illegal in itself. From 'Criminal Attempts Act 1981' Section 1 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/47/section/1 NOTE 3: the defence required to manufacture a RIF is not age specific, so an under 18 should be able to do so legally as long as they can prove their defence. Acronym Glossary: IF: Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is painted over 50% in an 'unrealistic' colour - this is generally referred to as 'two tone') RIF: Realistic Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is 'realistically' coloured so as not be easily distinguishable from a real firearm) VCRA: Violent Crime Reduction Act (the most recent law which directly affects the buying and selling of imitation firearms) UKARA: United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association (a group created by leading UK airsoft retailers to easily establish a defence against prosecution for themselves when selling imitation firearms - they maintain a database of airsoft players for this purpose; to be entered on the database a player must play three games in over a two month period at a registered airsoft site)
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So essentially, you're not really Snake Eyes you're Storm Shadow?
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Importing parts isn't legal, it's the manufacturing them into a RIF afterwards that's illegal. That said, what the law says and how the police and customs act are not always the same thing. You can sort of see why too: For one, some unscrupulous HK websites have offered to send RIFs over here 'in two parts' in the past to people with no defence whatsoever, thereby attempting to circumvent the law. With this in mind customs do sometimes seize larger 'parts' to ensure a second large part (and thus an entire RIF) is not following it closely on its heels (though to some degree you've predicted this already with your idea of sending to different addresses!). Secondly is the fact that it's hard to tell a real AR receiver (which is illegal to import) from a toy one on scans, etc., and in some cases customs will be looking at a toy one once they've got it out of the packaging and still be saying: "that's a real one that is, OMG!" or: "well, that's a fake 'un, but you see what these criminals do is convert them to fire real bullets. Seize it!" Lastly you also have the issue of people having new weapons sent over labelled as 'gifts' in order to avoid import taxes, VAT, etc. when in fact the item has been bought new from a business. At the end of the day, for $100, you might as well give it a shot. If all the parts reach you then technically all you've done is import parts. That's not illegal. If you then put them together and manufacture a RIF then you have broken the law. But, to be honest, nobody is probably ever going to know or ask ever, but if you did want to ensure you are within the legal safe zone you would just need to ensure that if police came flying through your window five minutes after you had manufactured the RIF you could establish a defence against prosecution for yourself by being able to demonstrate (though a booking to play soon at a proper site at the very least) that you were manufacturing the RIF with the intention of using it a proper site with the correct insurance.
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Right, be prepared for a long answer! Firstly there is NO such thing as a 'UKARA license.' There is no 'license' at all for Imitation Firearms ('IFs' or 'two tones') or Realistic Imitation Firearms ('RIFs') since they are not illegal to own. Next, the law in this country (Violent Crime Reduction Act - VCRA - 2006) makes it ALWAYS illegal to sell, import or manufacture a RIF (though not to buy one if you are over 18). So if anybody imports or manufactures a RIF they are breaking the law. If they were arrested for doing this they could be prosecuted and face up to five years in prison, however they could avoid this by establishing a 'defence against prosecution' for doing so (which is why you always hear airsofters talking about having 'a defence'). There are several defences written into UK law, and the one used by airsofters is basically that you can have a defence to import or manufacture if you can show that you were going to use the RIF to play airsoft at a proper site with the the correct insurance. This is where UKARA comes in. They are an organisation that keeps a database of people who have memberships to sites with the correct insurance and who have played there at least three times. As a result, being on this database is generally the easiest (but not only) way to establish a defence. Now to your situation! Whether you you import a whole RIF or import the parts and then manufacture one you WILL be breaking the law. The question then becomes whether you can establish a defence against prosecution for doing so. In the first instance, importing a whole RIF, I'd say you'd have the most trouble. There's a high chance that customs would stop your RIF and then speak to you. Customs barely understand the laws, so UKARA seem to be the only thing they understand. That being the case importing would be a bad idea for you. In the second instance, importing parts, you'd have more of a chance of getting them through. That said, customs do also stop parts, so you could have an issue. Mislabelling the cost of parts is illegal though, so if they discover that you'd also be in trouble. If all the parts do get to you then you putting them together is illegal as it's 'manufacture.' Realistically, however, once you've put the parts together who's to know? Technically speaking if you do put them together to play airsoft at a proper site then you've met the wording of the VCRA anyway and therefore DO have a defence against prosecution. Anyway, the various risks and rewards are now yours to weigh up! Hope that helps.
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To be fair to Mr Cheeseright, that is very unclear given the way you wrote it! It's also still not really true, since retailers (or any sellers) don't "require" UKARA either. I think what you're trying to say its that it may seem easier to buy parts and manufacture a RIF yourself (since nobody ever seems to run any checks at the point of purchase when you buy parts nor ever checks your defence to manufacture) than to jump through the hoops that some people may require from you in order to buy an already complete RIF. That said, assembling parts is a bit of an arse and I've never had any trouble buying RIFs despite only having been on the UKARA database for about a quarter of the time I've been airsofting, so I imagine it may just come down to personal experience as to whether that's true.
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No problem in spraying a clear gun into two tone (though I really can't see why you would). I don't think the specific shade of colour matters as long as it's: (a)bright red; (b)bright orange; ©bright yellow; (d)bright green; (e)bright pink; (f)bright purple; or (g)bright blue.
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In fact it has nothing to do with owning a RIF at all, since you don't need any defence for that.
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How come you aren't allowed to spray a gun but allowed to own a RIF?
Longshot replied to Lord_Metile's topic in UK Law
As I believe has been pointed out by a couple of people within this thread, the reason airsofters 'have difficulty with the law' is often because they haven't actually read the bloody thing and have just repeated what someone else who hasn't read it told them (after that person heard it from someone else who hadn't read it as well). -
How come you aren't allowed to spray a gun but allowed to own a RIF?
Longshot replied to Lord_Metile's topic in UK Law
Testify Mr Cheeseright. -
That makes it trickier then. It is illegal to manufacture a RIF, but you can have a defence against prosecution for doing so if you can show that you were creating the RIF to play airsoft at a site with the proper insurance (sic). If you want to stay legal it might be safer to wait until you can clearly show that this is the case, even if that just means you have a game booked in somewhere.
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Hi Herjan. Are you currently playing anywhere here in the UK?
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^ I think you need to understand the timeline of events (and silly decisions) that have led to the present day situation in order to answer a lot of that. Essentially it went something like this: - 2006: The government decides (probably after a long consultative process that included reading a lot of the Daily Mail) that they can 'reduce violent crime' by banning toy guns that look 'realistic.' They decide that they can't really force everyone to give back the toy guns they already have, so they don't make owning them illegal. They also realise that nobody is probably going to realise or care if they made buying them illegal, so they don't do that either. Instead they just make it illegal to sell, import or manufacture them. They also seem to think nobody needs them for anything useful at all, though another quick consultation (this one seems to effectively been a brainstorm they made on a piece of A4) leads them to the conclusion that some people might need them, but the only people who might possibly have any decent use for realistic toy guns are people working in film, TV or stage, re-enactors or people who the Queen asked to go and buy them as part of their job. So they give these guys a 'pass,' and essentially add in to the new law that these guys will be breaking the law like everyone else, but they can't be prosecuted for doing so. The Violent Crime Reduction Act (VCRA) 2006 is passed. Job done, everyone's happy. Or so they think. - Early 2007: Airsoft retailers kick off. "Oh my days blud!" They shout. "What dem man gone done?" They (leading retailers like Zeroone, Airsoft World, Landwarrior, etc.) form a group: The United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association (UKARA), because forming a group and getting an acronym instantly makes you feel like you've got big boy pants on. They get a sit-down with the lawmakers and explain what airsoft is and how their livelihoods will be severely affected when the new law comes into play in October. The lawmakers pretend they know what UKARA are talking about whilst they're actually saying to each other: "Oh, I say! 'Airsoft?' How ridiculously absurd!" They show their confusion (and the fact that they seem to think that these UKARA chaps are some sort of tribal lords who have complete control over all airsoft events and retail in the UK) by getting the Home Secretary to add another 'defence' to the list. By the time they get round to this they've actually forgotten what airsoft is, so they just write it down as something to do with "military and law enforcement scenarios." They then reassure themselves that it's all going to be cool because the UKARA tribal council has agreed to set up a database of people they trust and they're only going to sell to them. Obviously, since the UKARA are the only people who are ever going to sell anyone realistic looking toy guns, there will never be any problems ever. - October 2007: Virtually all violent crime in the UK is ended thanks to the VCRA. - 2007-Present: 99% of airsofters have literally no clue what the VCRA and UKARA are all about. They keep arguing about what 'defences you need to buy' without realising that this makes no sense whatsoever. They quote stuff that the UKARA has made up, like "regular skirmisher," as if it was something to do with the actual law. Additionally, 99.9% of UK politicians and police also have no idea what the VCRA and UKARA are all about, however most people on airsoft forums are convinced that 'we're being watched,' 'our sport in under threat,' 'the Home Secretary has us under scrutiny,' etc. This is all true. Teresa May does nothing all day but read airsoft forums in the hope of gathering enough evidence to finally shut us down. I hope that helps.