New high torque motor

[PopRocket123]

The current motor in my SRC TCC M4 (the stock SRC Ultra high torque motor) is shot meaning I'm barely getting 10 rps. Seems like as good a time as any to upgrade. The advice I've generally seen and been given is high torque motor so what would be your suggestions? I'm running a M100 spring and standard 13:1 gears but they may get upgraded to 12:1. I'm looking at get around 20 RPS because anything more than that seems unnecessary. I'm mainly after trigger response.

[Hangtight]

Stock gears are usually 18:1. Just mimic mine seeing as you like it so much. What you really need is a gearbox shell that isn't made of die cast cheese...

[Katana]

SHS 13:1 are fine...heard some hit and miss things with the 12:1's and it's really not worth the hassle over 1 advertised rotation anyway. If you are talking about doing a full revamp to keep the gun reliable and also talking about high speed gears like the 13:1, there is a whole lot more that you will have to do besides what you have listed. If you are doing it yourself then welcome to the town of "This sh*t don't work properly" which is right next to "ffs I thought it would be easy".

 

What battery are you using? If you are using NiMh, burn it with fire and pick some 7.4v 25c lipo's. 

If you are after trigger response, you could actually use 16:1 gears by SHS and grab some 11.1v LiPo's to use with it along with a torquier motor, perhaps around the 22tpa range.

You will need to change out the piston to a Lonex red or the standard for this sort of build which usually is an SHS 14 or 14.5 or 15 tooth piston. I believe the 14.5 will be easier to correct aoe on

You will need to correct AOE using sorbothane pad

You will need to shim the gears which can be tricky

It would be a good idea to grab a mosfet aswell, depending on how much you wish to spend, Gate Titan for around 85 with the cable OR card........or a wired in simple mosfet but a mosfet is a must on 11.1v

Motor height must be good and lined up with the gearbox open, if you really want amazing shimming, trim your pistol grip down if it is being pushed away from your receiver. Not the best explanation but yeah haha

Check compression parts for perfect compression

 

Let me say this though...you won't be getting 20rps with 13:1 or certainly not 12:1 gears. You are looking much higher than that, depending on battery it could be anywhere from 26 - 38rps

16:1 would tame that a lot more and you can still achieve very good trigger response on the 16:1's

Might as well look into a decent tightbore and a flat hop because if you are using the stock src stuff, RIP accuracy and range

 

I would say 16:1's would be the much easier option to go for and will arguably be more reliable in the long run due to the stress of the build being reduced from the higher speed gears. 

But if you are going 16:1's, the Lonex 16:1 gears should be a step up in quality from the SHS ones.

 

[Katana]

Oh and there are plenty of good motors on the market but here are a couple of well known good ones that would be good for your build:

ASG 30k

Lonex A2

SHS High Torque

ZCI High Torque 22TPA (I would say this one might be best because of the higher TPA but at the same time it isn't too high, someone might need to elaborate on this though and you will need to research further into this to see if this will get you the performance you want.)

 

This is with 13:1 gears and a ZCI motor: 

 

 

 

There is also this build with SHS 16:1's and a SHS High Torque Motor which in mine opinion sounds very well shimmed as do both of these guns though:

 

 

Decisions decisions

[Sitting Duck]

Dan / Hef's M7A1 gun (if it still works...)

 

13:1 Rocket / SHS gears

SHS Torque motor
SS piston 3 teeth + spacer + spring bearing guide - aprox same spring compression after SS

m110 - ish spring on an aprox 229mm barrel

Gate NanoSSR - Fire-Storm would have done but both have thermal fuse built in

about 330fps - ish for Mall, drawing about 15.5amps & 23.5rps on just a 7.4v 25c lipo

 

 

[Katana]

On 13/03/2017 at 0:36 PM, Sitting Duck said:

Dan / Hef's M7A1 gun (if it still works...)

 

13:1 Rocket / SHS gears

SHS Torque motor
SS piston 3 teeth + spacer + spring bearing guide - aprox same spring compression after SS

m110 - ish spring on an aprox 229mm barrel

Gate NanoSSR - Fire-Storm would have done but both have thermal fuse built in

about 330fps - ish for Mall, drawing about 15.5amps & 23.5rps on just a 7.4v 25c lipo

 

 

You SS'ed the piston instead of the gears? I'm confused, don't you have to SS the gears as well if you SS the piston?

[Sitting Duck]

On 3/15/2017 at 11:11 AM, Katana said:

 

You SS'ed the piston instead of the gears? I'm confused, don't you have to SS the gears as well if you SS the piston?

 

Soz you are correct - I do both though really unless last tooth on sector is a very fat one like the one on right...

Stock pic- not my stuff - think the left one has been SS on release side mainly

DO NOT COPY THIS !!! I rarely SS on release as it can throw out tappet timing if not careful

Normally 16 teeth, take off 3 max

I once took 4 off but that was coz I f*cked up taking 2 off release instead of pick up side

I'd take 2 off pickup & 3rd tooth - hmm either or side if required

This pic shows a 16 tooth sector with large release tooth on right

BUT 11 teeth - jeez that is 5 removed and mostly seems to have come off release side

(you would need to seriously shorten the fin on tappet plate to get nozzle back in time to fire)

Please don't look at this and think I'll follow that example - this is not quite correct

just used it to show the large release tooth - and only that

don't mess up SS-ing like I did by following a bad guide or crap tutorial

jeez of all guides to pick I had to pick a muppet one - so don't be a muppet & copy this crap... 

this is quite rare to find but if it was a larger release tooth on sector at the back - then yes must SS piston teeth too

I just do it anyway - normally a little grinding anyway to remove 2nd sometimes and a smidge off 3rd for AoE

You don't have to SS the piston rack really if all sector's teeth - or the last release tooth are same size

Anyway my OCD takes over when I'm swiss-ing the piston trying to save weight so 2 or 3 metal teeth go as required

 

SS sector gear the first 3 teeth

 

Then swiss the piston up top I only swiss up top & it is well swissed by the time I'm finished.....

2nd tooth no more if it was there, 3rd reduced and last 2 or 3 to match sector gear

Depending on piston's original weight & piston head a full (well almost full after SS 3 teeth off)

A full metal piston + head all complete can just just scrape under 20gms - usually just over at about 22gms

Which is still lighter than many stock plastic pistons with a great bit chunk metal spring spacer in them

(f*cking hate those sods - about 7.5gms them bastids weigh)

 

 

This pic is a extra swiss'd long SR25 19 tooth piston I have earmarked if I ever can bothered to do

The 3 x bevel gears was put in to show people how bevels can vary so much

look at how highly cut the middle teeth sit - a weird bevel but this was to demonstrate how it varies

Suffice to say with bevels that can vary in depth of teeth, bearings/bushings plus different shells/pinions

You can never just assume or guess that bevel shimming is about 0.20mm

often it can be very roughly about that much BUT have used 0.1m on a reduced/sanded bushing

(SHS 8mm bushings are very chunky) and in another v3 with loads of slack I have gone to 0.55mm

 

 

 

 

that sort of swiss cheesing crap & the general pattern/placings I stick too

(if I can be ar$ed = usually as I am weirdly OCD but get the hump if it isn't 101% symmetrical)

 

SS was to ensure that if some nutter popped a 11.1v in there at say 1.5 X 24rps = 36rps

it " should " be ok to avoid PE (just in my book)

but I smashed $hit up going a bit quicker on 12:1 gears

Mind you that was a 33/35c beefy 11.1v plus a high speed motor which ran warm

so if it was a mild 11.1v 20c it should be safe

still going a bit too quick & most likely over run a bit pushing over 35rps on a mild UK spec gun

 

The yanks were running 11.1v - look at the overspin in the second one with 16:1 gears

(lovely shimming though - like a Rogers "shut up gears..." example - no whine or shrill)

Hef's was set for snappiness without silly-ness say at Mall

mofo grip coz it had I reckon 15awg silicone wire in there - quite chunky/thick wiring

Everything done to squeeze max possible out of the gun/box on just 7.4v

[PopRocket123]

I'm running 7.4V LiPos with a MOSFET in it already. I've already got a plan in place for building pretty much a whole new gear box and I just wanted to see what motors people recommended. Dw I know it's not going to be as simple as replacing just the gears and motor. Off the top of my head the only things I wouldn't be replacing in the gearbox is the trigger switch and cylinder head, although I'll see about that last one. I've got some experience shimming gears, adjusting motor height and fitting the grip.I know it's not going to be simple or cheap but it'll be worth it. thanks for the point about the 16:1 gears though I'll have a look into that. As for motors I was already looking at the SHS one and had been recommended the ASG.

[Hangtight]

 

ASG CNC 30k, SHS 13:1 gears, M100 spring, Firestorm Mosfet and a nearly flat 7.4v Lipo.

[Sitting Duck]

On 3/15/2017 at 5:40 PM, PopRocket123 said:

I'm running 7.4V LiPos with a MOSFET in it already. I've already got a plan in place for building pretty much a whole new gear box and I just wanted to see what motors people recommended. Dw I know it's not going to be as simple as replacing just the gears and motor. Off the top of my head the only things I wouldn't be replacing in the gearbox is the trigger switch and cylinder head, although I'll see about that last one. I've got some experience shimming gears, adjusting motor height and fitting the grip.I know it's not going to be simple or cheap but it'll be worth it. thanks for the point about the 16:1 gears though I'll have a look into that. As for motors I was already looking at the SHS one and had been recommended the ASG.

 

If you got deans instead of small tamiya then you are fine

 

As for motor - either will do, just stay away from higher speed motors on faster gears

std gears yeah maybe speed motor as a quick boost but with higher speed gearing - nahhhhhh

They run warmer as they draw more/much more amps and this increases on higher speed gear builds

 

Drawing more & more amps means your grip gets warmer - even with best shimming in the world

not only the grip/motor but the whole wiring runs warmer and coz you are drawing more amps/heat

your battery may not last a morning if you like to spray & pray a lot

 

I mean F*ck yeah its fun for a while but ultra fast hosing just looks so noobish all day

as well as having to change battery before lunchtime coz it has depleted quite quickly

 

So stick with the moderate or balanced SHS Torque or 30k ASG - no faster

(about a 25k to 30k motor no less & no more imho)

 

Buy what you can afford & what one you can get hold of - there won't be a massive difference in performance

I bought the SHS motor coz they say the SHS pinion meshes so well with SHS gears

f*ck me that is a bit of a tongue twister - she sells sea shells on the sea shore

(easier for Sean Connery to say - " Oh yeshhh I luv eshh aych eshhhh " )

 

 

Soz - back on topic - But I'm sure the ASG Infinity motors mesh well too as they get great reviews too

just get either - stick on 7.4v as beefy 11.1v & beefy motors can run too quick on some builds

trust me - I have stripped quite a few pistons & smashed a couple of bevels taking the pi$$

the WOW soon turns into a WTF & then a OH $HIT & then AHH CRAP & other profanities....

yeah another tear down required Mr Tear-ar$e that never learns

[PopRocket123]

Yeah the plan was SHS gears so I guess I'll get the SHS motor. I'm also going to get a new mech box because mine is apparently made of cheese. Seriously we stripped two sets of threads the first time we took it apart so I'm looking to get one of the CNC ones to really treat myself. I've made a list then immediately deleted it when I realised that it all came to £162 which is more than I paid for the gun originally although that's minus the external presents I got for it.

[Hangtight]

Not so much stripped the threads as unwound them with the screws... Cheese, and not even nice cheese. More like that nasty plastic stuff they put on burgers.

It doesn't have to be a cnc shell. If anyone can recommend a good, value for money shell that would be helpful. I like the JG 8mm shell ,but it needed the gentle attentions of the Dremel before it would close properly around a cnc cylinder head. The Guarder 6mm one I've got requires the dexterity of an octopus to put together as it refuses to hold bits in place as you assemble (especially the bloody anti reversal latch and the sector gear), and the casting quality is a bit 'meh'. Good material though.

[Sitting Duck]

Threads stripping - on the m3 threads ???

 

you never need to tighten them up with a clenched fist - unless you worked at Kwik-Fit-Euro

(wait until you have to change a wheel on the hard shoulder in the pi$$ing down rain with a poxy short brace)

 

Tighten up heatsinks on ps3's way too tight and you get the Green Light Of Death

Seriously - thumb & fore-finger is all you need to tighten those bolts- just tighten with those two

NOT an all mighty clenched fist that causes more harm than good

 

Also note the exact screws bolts actually and where exactly they go.

OCD but each thread/bolt is slightly slightly unique - just a work habit maybe but I tend to stick to in most things

 

Also if you ever take anything apart that is plastic - just whacking in screw and tightening will widen the cut of the thread

You are best off placing the screw/bolt in and turning it counter-clockwise

eventually you will feel it rise & drop with a very very faint whisper of a thud - NOW tighten clockwise

The screw & thread have now aligned with each other and trust me on crappy plastic console cases etc...

The threads last much better/stronger than widening those plastic threads jamming in a screw down Kwik-Fit-Euro

 

Same applies on these quite modest M3 threads in the gearbox

the number of times you open/close a box when checking the shimming, adjusting the shimming - damn a bit more/less

Then OK lets open again and check some bits or try to squeeze in the spring yup all done

OH crap - forgot to hook on the tappet spring - FFS !!! (or something else)

 

Now the pistol grip....

 

Ahh FFS just smashed the thing to bits taking the pi$$ again - open her back up & replace shredded piston...

 

No wonder if these ultra high quality precision pieces of craftsmanship from the engineering capital of the world

OK -  pi$$pot metal cast into a mould that was just copied from a copy of a copy a copy of a copy a copy of another make

yup pile of poop banged out by the shed load at a couple of bucks, lovingly assembled by highly trained technicians

Or just slapped together by Lanfen Wong or whatever knocking them out by the hour for peanuts

Ahem...

These little M3 threads strip so easily if care is not taken

 

Some boxes are better than others - but end of the day most can be made to sing - or sing a little better

(JBBG & some others please note: some really really good techs might be magic but they ain't f*cking magicians)

[Hangtight]

You're preaching to the converted mate! I used to design and build amongst other things, medical imaging equipment and some of my stuff is currently buried under the French /Swiss border herding high energy particles round in a circle. When I wasn't doing that I had a hand in a world record holding drag bike. Put 'John Floyd Yamaha' into YouTube. I've lost count of the times that's been apart and never stripped a thread yet. If I have to take my leased work van into KwikF@#k I can't stay and watch. It physically pains me...

[ImTriggerHappy]

10 minutes ago, Hangtight said:

You're preaching to the converted mate! I used to design and build amongst other things, medical imaging equipment and some of my stuff is currently buried under the French /Swiss border herding high energy particles round in a circle. When I wasn't doing that I had a hand in a world record holding drag bike. Put 'John Floyd Yamaha' into YouTube. I've lost count of the times that's been apart and never stripped a thread yet. If I have to take my leased work van into KwikF@#k I can't stay and watch. It physically pains me...

If everyone is such an expert why don't you all just retap and helicoil the holes?

The first thing I do on any airsoft gun is helicoil it and replace screws because even the higher end guns use cheese alloy. Don't fall for that cnc'ed crap either because most parts that claim that are cast/sintered and just machine finished not made from a billet.

 

Edit: Just checked the vid, thats not a real drag bike its a moped with a wheelie bar 

[Hangtight]

14 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

Edit: Just checked the vid, thats not a real drag bike its a moped with a wheelie bar 

 

Yep, it's a stink wheel! It's also half a second faster than anyone else in the class on half the cubic capacity... they really hate us.

 

Helicoils are on my list of stuff to get. And I'm just waiting for my local purveyor of all things Stainless steel and threaded to receive the M3 csk, domed, flanged etc Torx screws I've ordered.

 

And would people please learn the difference between Phillips and Pozi. Different heads, different Screwdrivers!

[Sitting Duck]

Wasn't trying to preach but offering some suggestions or future advice to OP - PopRocket123

He was the one saying he stripped two threads first time he took it apart

 

I was merely pointing out some snippets to him than buying a £125+ shell to go in a SRC

not really needed imho and the shell would be worth more than the f*cking gun - ooh bitchy but kinda true

(mind you I'm a Cheap Skate or a G&G person so I can't mock too much)

 

In a regular high/crap quality stripped china box I would be more tempted to jam in a self tapping screw

and seek to replace the shell at some point in the future - with all new stuff etc....

[Hangtight]

Technically it was me who stripped the threads. PopRocket123 is my eldest son and it would appear that I'm now his tame Airsoft tech... and occasional source of spare parts. I'm beginning to wonder if manufacturers change their pot metal recipe to whatever is cheapest that month. Even from the same manufacturer the quality seems to vary.

[Sitting Duck]

Yes I really do think the high specification of quality refined materials might just might fluctuate a tiny amount

Or they just chuck in any old crap/scrap lying around - bit like the butchers mince to caterers

(used to work in butchers as young lad and 33% chunks of fat went in it & meat offal to redden it up a bit - jeeez)

But just WTF is that meat in a kebab shop window - it's a f*cking elephant's leg or something

 

Can't find the clip where Del - Boy says this isn't ya usual Hong Kong rubbish...

No this is high quality Taiwanese - or was it Vietnamese engineering...

(well it was something like that down at Peckham Market)

 

anyway can't find but wtf this is near enough the same thing....

 

 

 

[PopRocket123]

I wasn't going to put one of the really high end CNC shells in it. You weren't far off saying it's cost the same as the gun. I've found some SRC ones for about £65-75 but I'll probably just stick with the ZCI ones for less than half that. I've got together a list that's the length of my arm and comes to pretty much what I spent on it originally. It's already been R hopped and puts .28s out to about 70m so from here I just want to put out more than 10 a second and in a smaller grouping.

[Hangtight]

And those are proper, real metres. Not your nasty, cheap Airsoft metres. Somewhere I've got a pair of braces that are marked in cm and inches. You can stretch them to make anything fit...

[Sitting Duck]

change motor £30 = 20+rps

 

new box - sod it buy a cm515 or a cheapo Raider clone cm517

use the gun - I have bought much worse from JBBG

 

If the plastic M4 breaks then still worth that in parts

gearbox is ok - bit qwirky but re-enforced at rear so only 16: gearsf it

to fit 13:1's you gotta do a little dremmel work like a D-Boys box but all works out ok

[Hangtight]

Complete, brand new Asian market G&P gearbox for $78 posted?

[Sitting Duck]

still probably rip her open

not a big fan of their silicone wiring as well as their loop motor connectors

would change most of the bearings for bushings if changing gears

 

like their switch - no prongs same as some other switches like G&G SHS etc....

SRC Cyma have prongs at rear of switch so best short these for less possible grief

 

if £ to $ was better then yeah worth a look

but same price as a cm517 from TWG - ok box not as good but complete gun vs a gearbox

http://www.taiwangun.com/en/electric/cm-517-cm?from=listing&campaign-id=19

motor is f*cking dire though

[PopRocket123]

20 hours ago, Sitting Duck said:

If the plastic M4 breaks then still worth that in parts

 

It's a full metal one and the reciever are actually pretty nice. The gun was originally £250 so it's not completely crap externals. That said I have now replaced half of it but still... 

 

This is it so I'd say it'd be worth getting it something nice inside.