How I'm understanding UKARA

[Mike1971]

Ok, please bear with me and read all this before you rip me to pieces.

a brief history of me(which is relevant to the subject).

i have spent a sum total of 10 years as a Army reservist and Army cadet instructor.

I'm a qualified skill at arms instructor.

I'm also a qualified range safety officer

I'm qualified to teach candidates several of the British army's range of small arms.

I carry a MOD 90 Military identification.

which when going to buy any Air soft weapons system means absolutely sweet FA !!!

I have more chance of buying one with my flaming Tesco club card than I have with 10 years of qualifications with the real deal, in point of fact I found I can buy a real weapon system easier than I can buy a RIF! 

 

So in my eyes Ukara is only there to protect the seller and to prove I am playing the sport on regular occasions.

 

where as my qualifications mean I have the knowledge and ability to kill someone accurately with multiple weapon systems following the British Army's safe handling rules and applying the marksmanship principles.

 

I think I just answered my own question

I apologise if this sounds like a rant because it is, the law really needs sorting out.

[Sitting Duck]

The law is the law I'm afraid

not everything makes sense - but is the law all the same....

 

Even people who hold a valid firearms certificate can't by law purchase a toy gun or RIF

Can't vote for your country until 18 (ok Scotland but not at GE) - but can sign up to serve it at 16

another one:

Age of consent is 16 but can't watch an adult film until 18

 

The defense part in airsoft is mainly to protect retailers but also to avoid some daft MP's seeking to ban it altogether

Airsoft is still banned I think in Australia but not in New Zealand & most other places

 

We may not fully 101% agree with a lot of rules & regulations in life but we mainly understand we have to abide by them

MP's & MEP'skeep seeking to ban/restrict/reduce the power of UK airsoft and/or ban/tighten further legal firearm ownership

Even though despite them claiming terrorist attacks & stuff - these were illegally smuggled weapons not legally owned guns or AEG's

 

http://news.sky.com/story/man-with-weapons-in-car-denies-helping-to-prepare-terror-attack-10589396

 

The 51 year old was stopped ONE WEEK before Paris attack

a car with 8 AK's TNT & GRENADES yet you would of thought with a Paris address in the Sat Nav

They would of placed France & Europe on the highest possible alert...

 

No - lets consider tighter control on legal firearms & review any imitation toy guns instead

[Kash]

I always get really confused about how laws are suppose to makr things difficult for criminals / terrorists..

Lets face it. If your defence against law breakers is law your a bit of a.....  Yeah

[Tommikka]

10 hours ago, Mike1971 said:

Ok, please bear with me and read all this before you rip me to pieces.

a brief history of me(which is relevant to the subject).

i have spent a sum total of 10 years as a Army reservist and Army cadet instructor.

I'm a qualified skill at arms instructor.

I'm also a qualified range safety officer

I'm qualified to teach candidates several of the British army's range of small arms.

I carry a MOD 90 Military identification.

which when going to buy any Air soft weapons system means absolutely sweet FA !!!

I have more chance of buying one with my flaming Tesco club card than I have with 10 years of qualifications with the real deal, in point of fact I found I can buy a real weapon system easier than I can buy a RIF! 

 

So in my eyes Ukara is only there to protect the seller and to prove I am playing the sport on regular occasions.

 

where as my qualifications mean I have the knowledge and ability to kill someone accurately with multiple weapon systems following the British Army's safe handling rules and applying the marksmanship principles.

 

I think I just answered my own question

I apologise if this sounds like a rant because it is, the law really needs sorting out.

The UKARA is a method of the airsoft retail industry to protect themselves in line with the VCRA

They use the UKARA scheme to establish that a buyer is a valid 'skirmisher'

 

The VCRA also has nothing to do with terrorism or organized crime.  It is about 'violent crime reduction' but is realy an anti chav law, with the crime reduction element being to prevent/reduce RIFs being easily available to look like a weapon to threaten people in muggings, low level robbery etc ..... without the criminals get out clause 'I wasn't threatening him with a gun, it was just a toy'.

The other element is to keep RIFs out of the hands of children and idiots (another chav element of the law) and causing 'accidental' firearms incidents because kids are out playing or chavs are posing with RIF pistols down their pants

 

You shouldn't be using your MOD90 to flash about in shops.  Ask CITAT about that.   (99% of the army do use their ID in McDonalds, nightclubs, even hand them to banks to be photocopied.  But are also told not to do so)

 

Your range and instructor qualifications are irrelevant to RIFs.  They give you the qualification that you could possibly risk assess and operate a firing range using airsoft guns, but don't make you an SME in airsoft.  You qualifications in weaponry could also be placing you in a position of complacency. (Check out CESOs Army Safety magazine on paintball for army training.  There isn't an article on airsoft, or regulations on its use in the army as far as I know - but there is on its private use on the defence estate, see training area publications)

Read the 'top tips' on page 15 of issue 40

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B4fEipTqsxY9X3c5WEsxUlVUdnc?usp=drive_web

 

If you are attempting to purchase a RIF for your duties then the UKARA does not apply, there is a seperate defence for crown servants purchasing for use within their duties.  That does not mean you as a reservist or I as a civil servant can use our positions as 'crown servants' as a defence.  Your mod90 is not good enough for that, you would need to be coming up with something more convincing, a purchase order letter etc justifying that you are buying as part of your duties - and paying via one of the MODs payment methods 

 

If you want to buy a RIF for yourself then you have to follow the UKARA process and play

If you don't want it and just want to stick it on your wall then the VCRA doesn't provide a defence for that (you can but a deac instead because the VCRA doesn't apply)

if you want it for instruction/familiarization/props etc then you don't need UKARA or your mod90, you need to produce something to support you doing this as part of your duties. Noting of course that other things exist in the army for those purposes 

Take a trip to shrivenham and look around the display of vehicles in the hangar.  Check out the weapons laid out on the vehicles.  If that's good enough for the defence academy then consider what an airsoft RIF really adds to instruction.

 

 

 

[Mike1971]

Tommika, its to play air soft. 

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Mike1971 said:

Tommika, its to play air soft. 

In which case you do the same as everyone else to gain the UKARA skirmisher defence, turn up to a few games 

 

Possessing a MOD90 and having military qualifications doesn't make you an airsofter

[Mike1971]

Very true, I will be going to my local site as it's good and enjoy cqb.

not just to get my ukara because what air soft I have done so far has been brilliant fun.

[Mike1971]

Tommikka take a look at my profile and see how long I have been a member and how long I have been doing air soft.

[Tommikka]

45 minutes ago, Mike1971 said:

Tommikka take a look at my profile and see how long I have been a member and how long I have been doing air soft.

But your MOD90 & military qualifications still have no bearing on airsoft

 

As an existing airsofter UKARA will only work if you keep on going and getting your membership up to date each year

On a legal basis though, it is only a scheme that proves your status to the shop.  You could try and demonstrate to them that you are an airsoft skirmisher, which they will accept or not

 

 

[Loki7491]

Legally you don't need UKARA at all, but let's take a closer look at this

 

United

Kingdom

Airsoft

Retailers

Association

 

UKARA is by retailers, for retailers.

 

it is recognised by the law makers as a good practice in order to prove due diligence prior to making a sale. It is NOT law.

 

Think of it as the Police ANPR system. 

 

Years ago ago if a Police officer was suspicious about the legality of your car they would pull you over and you had provide sufficient proof that you were legally entitled to be driving that car.

 

ownership / permission of owner

tax

insurance

mot

 

if the officer was not satisfied that you were legit they would issue a "7 day wonder" or a producer. That gave you one week to go to a police station of your choosing and produce your documents to the satisfaction of the duty desk officer.

 

Nowadays their camera flashes your number plate and they know if they need to tug you over or not.

 

Transferring that to Airsoft and UKARA - production of a UKARA registered site membership merely proves you have been pre-approved. Somebody else has done the leg work in verifying you are a bonafide player and selling to you is legal.

 

The key point is that the seller needs to satisfied to the point of defending their actions in court if necessary that you are both over 18 and intend to use the gun for Airsoft purposes.

 

The states that. UKARA goes above and beyond that as it shows commitment to self policing and it means no retailer should fall foul, thus bringing the industry into disrepute.

 

Google VCRA 2006, section 37.

 

Section 37 lists all legal defences applicable. Airsoft comes under "permitted activities" so actually is less robust than re-enacting.

 

You will notice that at no point is UKARA mentioned.

 

 

[Guest scalawag]

Well, I understand the need for a defence in order for the retailer to be covered legally for the sale of an RIF. 

 

I know that there are other valid defences to skirmishing, but most of those with the exception of reenacting are related to a persons occupation and not something that can be gained by simply joining a group.  Having been a Reenactor I don't think there are many Genuine reenactors that would wish to use an Airsoft Replica instead of a Deac or registered firearm. Just my opinion.

 

There are still gun clubs in this country that allow people with the appropriate documentation to collect and target shoot real firearms.  Surely if a club was set up to do similar with Airsoft Guns then this should form a "Valid defence" for a retailer.

 

I am not talking here about a group of mates meeting to shoot their guns, but a proper club with membership and insurance.  The same criteria for UKARA registration could apply to show commitment to the sport of Airsoft (3 club meets attended in 2 months minimum).

 

Would UKARA consider registering such a club?  Probably not. But why, it is surely just as legitimate a use for airsoft guns as running around in the woods shooting them at other people, just that they are being shot at paper targets and admired by other collectors instead.  The reason that UKARA would not include such a group in their scheme is simple.....A lot of UKARA retailer members, and almost all of the founder members RUN THEIR OWN SKIRMISH SITES.

 

You have to play at a site and potentially make a UKARA member money before you can become UKARA registered and spend more money with a UKARA member buying your guns.  Very sad indeed.

 

Before someone steps in and says that the VCRA says "skirmishing" is the only valid Airsoft game defence which is quite correct, it does not however, go on to define what Airsoft skirmishing actually is or what an Airsoft Skirmishing group or site would be doing in terms of activities.  UKARA could accept target shooting as a legitimate Airsoft "Skirmish" activity, but I doubt that they will.

 

 

[jcheeseright]

41 minutes ago, scalawag said:

Well, I understand the need for a defence in order for the retailer to be covered legally for the sale of an RIF. 

 

I know that there are other valid defences to skirmishing, but most of those with the exception of reenacting are related to a persons occupation and not something that can be gained by simply joining a group.  Having been a Reenactor I don't think there are many Genuine reenactors that would wish to use an Airsoft Replica instead of a Deac or registered firearm. Just my opinion.

 

There are still gun clubs in this country that allow people with the appropriate documentation to collect and target shoot real firearms.  Surely if a club was set up to do similar with Airsoft Guns then this should form a "Valid defence" for a retailer.

 

I am not talking here about a group of mates meeting to shoot their guns, but a proper club with membership and insurance.  The same criteria for UKARA registration could apply to show commitment to the sport of Airsoft (3 club meets attended in 2 months minimum).

 

Would UKARA consider registering such a club?  Probably not. But why, it is surely just as legitimate a use for airsoft guns as running around in the woods shooting them at other people, just that they are being shot at paper targets and admired by other collectors instead.  The reason that UKARA would not include such a group in their scheme is simple.....A lot of UKARA retailer members, and almost all of the founder members RUN THEIR OWN SKIRMISH SITES.

 

You have to play at a site and potentially make a UKARA member money before you can become UKARA registered and spend more money with a UKARA member buying your guns.  Very sad indeed.

 

Before someone steps in and says that the VCRA says "skirmishing" is the only valid Airsoft game defence which is quite correct, it does not however, go on to define what Airsoft skirmishing actually is or what an Airsoft Skirmishing group or site would be doing in terms of activities.  UKARA could accept target shooting as a legitimate Airsoft "Skirmish" activity, but I doubt that they will.

 

 

 

What you're describing there is exactly how it is. In order to be put onto the UKARA database you need to be a member of an insured skirmish site... sounds a lot like a club to me.

[Andyraven]

1 hour ago, scalawag said:

You have to play at a site and potentially make a UKARA member money before you can become UKARA registered and spend more money with a UKARA member buying your guns.  Very sad indeed.

 

Its pretty bad seeing as you have to spend upto or over £150 just to get a UKARA Number. Just seems to be a money making scam. Thats why i use my reenactment license (shooters Rights Association) which is basically the same as a UKARA. But it only cost me £30 a year. The only thing i havn't done with it is order from overseas, but im sure i can without too much hassle.

[Guest scalawag]

1 hour ago, jcheeseright said:

 

What you're describing there is exactly how it is. In order to be put onto the UKARA database you need to be a member of an insured skirmish site... sounds a lot like a club to me.

 

Yes indeed, but do you have to skirmish?  I don't want to have to skirmish to obtain UKARA registration, I would rather collect and target shoot airsoft.  I would be quite happy to go along to a skirmish site and target shoot.  Are there any UKARA registered Skirmish Sites that allow for that?  If there is not, will they be happy for me to attend a skirmish but not participate, and will they still charge me for participating anyway if I am allowed to do that?

[Guest scalawag]

21 minutes ago, Andyraven said:

 

Its pretty bad seeing as you have to spend upto or over £150 just to get a UKARA Number. Just seems to be a money making scam. Thats why i use my reenactment license (shooters Rights Association) which is basically the same as a UKARA. But it only cost me £30 a year. The only thing i havn't done with it is order from overseas, but im sure i can without too much hassle.

 

Absolutely.

[jcheeseright]

11 minutes ago, scalawag said:

 

Yes indeed, but do you have to skirmish?  I don't want to have to skirmish to obtain UKARA registration, I would rather collect and target shoot airsoft.  I would be quite happy to go along to a skirmish site and target shoot.  Are there any UKARA registered Skirmish Sites that allow for that?  If there is not, will they be happy for me to attend a skirmish but not participate, and will they still charge me for participating anyway if I am allowed to do that?

 

The defence is only for Airsoft skirmishing, it was justified by our requirement for realism.  If you're not skirmishing then you don't have a requirement and therefore no entitlement. 

 

Put simply, in order to qualify for a skirmisher's defence you must be an Airsoft skirmisher. 

[Keith157]

I know of a couple of air gun clubs, fully registered and insured which allow the use of airsoft pistols on their ranges. What is the difference between that and a skirmish site? The clubs have trained range safety officers and allow competitions between multi shot air pistols and airsoft pistols. I have been told by a couple of retailers that photo ID from such a club would, in their eyes, be proof of your intentions to use a RIF responsibly. Would I commit the offence by buying from them or would they be liable for selling me one. I use two tone pistols myself as I can't skirmish, very difficult using a walking stick or occasionally crutches.

 

 

 

[Tommikka]

11 hours ago, Andyraven said:

 

Its pretty bad seeing as you have to spend upto or over £150 just to get a UKARA Number. Just seems to be a money making scam. Thats why i use my reenactment license (shooters Rights Association) which is basically the same as a UKARA. But it only cost me £30 a year. The only thing i havn't done with it is order from overseas, but im sure i can without too much hassle.

It's not £150 for a UKARA number, it's £150 of taking part and playing - taking part in the the activity of airsoft skirmishing which is one of the defences for a RIF

 

If you're a re-enactor then you have one of the other defences

 

 

[Tommikka]

10 hours ago, scalawag said:

 

Yes indeed, but do you have to skirmish?  I don't want to have to skirmish to obtain UKARA registration, I would rather collect and target shoot airsoft.  I would be quite happy to go along to a skirmish site and target shoot.  Are there any UKARA registered Skirmish Sites that allow for that?  If there is not, will they be happy for me to attend a skirmish but not participate, and will they still charge me for participating anyway if I am allowed to do that?

Collecting is not one of the VCRA defences

 

Target shooting is not a VCRA defence - it doesn't have to look real and can function perfectly well as a 2 tone

 

Sites may be happy to let you turn up, but I doubt a site would let you turn up, not participate - and would probably be conspiring to defraud if they let you turn up just to get a card stamped to prove your skirmisher status without skirmishing  (and not pay? - if you were to turn up, sign in and pay, hang around,  but not actually play they may not notice or care (they may be suspicious of you hanging around the safe zone around everyone's kit when people go out to play)

 

[Tommikka]

7 hours ago, Keith157 said:

I know of a couple of air gun clubs, fully registered and insured which allow the use of airsoft pistols on their ranges. What is the difference between that and a skirmish site? The clubs have trained range safety officers and allow competitions between multi shot air pistols and airsoft pistols. I have been told by a couple of retailers that photo ID from such a club would, in their eyes, be proof of your intentions to use a RIF responsibly. Would I commit the offence by buying from them or would they be liable for selling me one. I use two tone pistols myself as I can't skirmish, very difficult using a walking stick or occasionally crutches.

 

 

 

Firing on a range is not a VCRA defence

A 2 tone would be just fine

 

The retailer is legally liable to ensure the buyer has a valid defence, not that they will use it 'responsibly'

 

[Guest scalawag]

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Collecting is not one of the VCRA defences

 

Target shooting is not a VCRA defence - it doesn't have to look real and can function perfectly well as a 2 tone

 

Sites may be happy to let you turn up, but I doubt a site would let you turn up, not participate - and would probably be conspiring to defraud if they let you turn up just to get a card stamped to prove your skirmisher status without skirmishing  (and not pay? - if you were to turn up, sign in and pay, hang around,  but not actually play they may not notice or care (they may be suspicious of you hanging around the safe zone around everyone's kit when people go out to play)

 

Well, I don't think any of us were questioning what the law says the defences are, perhaps you should read the posts again more thoroughly.

 

Personally, I think it will only be a matter of time before the skirmish defence is also questioned and possibly amended.

 

I know some people who would argue that an airsoft gun does not need to to be an RIF in order to Skirmish with it either.  

I suppose paintball could be seen as an example of a similar activity where the weapons used are not made to look like realistic firearms.  That works really well and has done for years with no RIFs.

 

I wonder if it would be farer if all Airsoft sales were 2 tone then?  

 

I wonder why you would think it is necessary for an airsoft gun used for skirmishing to be an RIF any more than one used for target shooting?

 

Can skirmishing not be done with 2 tone guns?  

 

I do understand that 2 tone guns will stand out more and compromise camouflage whilst skirmishing, but surely that does not affect how they operate?  The look of an airsoft gun does not affect the function for target shooting apparently, so why should this be different for skirmishing.

 

Anyway.....

 

So the colour is potentially an issue for skirmishing, ok here is an idea, perhaps airsoft guns for Skirmishing could be black or other subdued colours but not resemble real firearms?  Why do skirmishing airsoft guns need to look like real firearms?  

 

If the guns used were subdued in colour, but did not resemble any real firearm, that would surely work and not impinge on the mechanics of how skirmishing works?  

 

It would obviously affect how a skirmisher might look, but as you yourself pointed out the way something looks does not affect the function.

 

If all Airsoft guns met these criteria, i.e. they can be subdued but not resemble any pattern of real firearm, or they can resemble a real firearm but must then be 2 tone, then there would be no further need for a defence before a gun can be sold.

 

Or would not owning an RIF spoil your enjoyment of Airsoft too?

 

If you would not be happy using a 2 tone airsoft gun or one that did not resemble a real firearm for your chosen airsoft activity what makes you think that anyone else would be happy using one for a different airsoft activity?  Once you can undertstand this perhaps it becomes more apparent to you why those who do not skirmish, but love airsoft, feel the need to ventilate about the apparent inequality of the defences stated in this piece of legislation.  Not questioning what the law says, but debating how it could be farer to all who love airsoft guns.

 

I also wonder, if what you enjoy about airsoft was to be affected in this sort of way,  would you feel the same way about it as you do now, or would you have a little more compassion and understanding for others who are prevented from doing what they enjoy in the airsoft hobby.

 

Since I am sure that, judging from your previous replies, your reply this time will be along the lines of "none of this maters because the law says that skirmishers can have RIFs anyway", I won't be sticking around to look for it. I have better things to do with my time.

 

As to the other issues addressed in your post regarding attending sites lets not even go there.  Think about the people who go through the whole rigmarole to get a UKARA registration just to get an RIF.  They are there I know some of them as they have a similar interest in Airsoft as I do.  How many UKARA registrations do not get renewed each year I wonder?

 

Anyway enough of this.

 

Lets hope that public opinion does not turn against a hobby that involves shooting realistic looking guns at other people, and you loose something you enjoy too.  This law has put us half way there and rest assured that politicians will not hesitate to close it down completely if that is what they think the public at large would want.  It wins them votes, or at least does not lose them votes and it is exactly what has happened in Australia.  The average person on the street these days does not think that guns of any kind or pseudo violence are good things for society, and it is only a mater of time before some enterprising MP decides they can make a name for themself by eradicating airsoft from the UK completely.  No one really needs an RIF.

 

Happy Skirmishing.

[Guest scalawag]

13 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

 

The defence is only for Airsoft skirmishing, it was justified by our requirement for realism.  If you're not skirmishing then you don't have a requirement and therefore no entitlement. 

 

Put simply, in order to qualify for a skirmisher's defence you must be an Airsoft skirmisher. 

Ok cool,  Thats me out of airsoft then as I am sure is the same for you I do not wish to own 2 tone airsoft guns (how many 2 tones do you own and use regularly).  

 

it seems the law precludes me from acquiring what I would like to own, even though actually owning it is not illegal.  Is that discriminatory? possibly, but that doesn't matter eh! cos you still have what you want. Who cares about anyone else.

 

Read the posts again and you will see that the current defences where not questioned or misunderstood so really no need to remind of them yet again.  My posts were about the inequalities in the law as it stands and not about what the law says.

 

What I think is very questionable from what you have said is airsoft skirmishings assertion of its need for realism.  There is absolutely no need for an RIF in skirmishing.  It is nice to have, and it completes the look, but a non realistic looking airsoft gun will work just as well at a skirmish as an RIF, so need realism, nah you don't, no more than anyone else does.  Airsoft skirmishers wanting RIFs to complete a look is not the same as needing an RIF.  This I think is a very unconvincing argument, especially in the current social climate. Needing a realistic looking gun to shoot at other people even in a controlled environment would be ludicrous to the public at large.

 

Good luck with that when this law comes up for amendment, which it will.  

 

Oh and you had the support of people like me last time it was debated, lobbying government on behalf of all of the airsoft comunity, you won't get it again next time as I will be doing something else now.

 

Byee.

[James1989]

Byee

[Andyraven]

11 hours ago, Tommikka said:

It's not £150 for a UKARA number, it's £150 of taking part and playing - taking part in the the activity of airsoft skirmishing which is one of the defences for a RIF

 

If you're a re-enactor then you have one of the other defences

 

 

 

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

 

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

 

 

[Andyraven]

you can't compare painball with Airsoft as the goverment doesn't.

Airsoft have the sh*tty end of the stick. Go look at some painball guns what take mags. you dont need a UKARA, Defence or two-tone to buy one. If you're getting robbed at gun point most of you are not going to question if the gun real on not.

what we need to get into the goverments head is a criminal doesn't abid buy the law. two-tones can be painted so really a UKARA solves nothing other then saving Retailers arse's hense thats why it was made.