Parents buying RIFs for under 18's who play regularly.

[Jam_Man]

Had a discussion on facebook with a 17 year old who was saying his local shop have sold him RIF's "legally" by selling them to his parents who gift them to him. As he plays regularly at their site and know him they consider that to be a legal defence.

 

His parents do not play Airsoft.

 

This store have got it wrong haven't they, or are they ok?!

 

I can see the logic in their thinking, they aren't selling to an under 18 and they know its going to be used for Airsoft, however I don't think the rules work like that do they?

 

 

[RR01]

Correct, the store are at fault. It is the person they sell to who must have the defence, so they have broken the law in selling a RIF to someone who has no defence.

[Jam_Man]

That was my take on it as well.

[Kash]

Another echo, the purchaser must have a defence, it doesnt matter who theyre buying it for

[sokar666]

Had a discussion on facebook with a 17 year old who was saying his local shop have sold him RIF's "legally" by selling them to his parents who gift them to him. As he plays regularly at their site and know him they consider that to be a legal defence.

 

His parents do not play Airsoft.

 

This store have got it wrong haven't they, or are they ok?!

 

I can see the logic in their thinking, they aren't selling to an under 18 and they know its going to be used for Airsoft, however I don't think the rules work like that do they?

 

 

You don't have to play airsoft to buy a RIF, my wife buy's all mine and she has never played a day in her life.

 

She is a costume designer.

 

Plus a proof of defence can be so many things not just ukara

[Kash]

The main point still stands though, the purchaser requires a defence, unless his parents are in a job where they can prove they require the realistic appearance , ie costume designer for film etc or a re-enacter or similar.

 

If anything the airsoft defence is by far the easiest to get.

[Sitting Duck]

18 is the age to buy a RIF or IF - end of

 

RIF requires a defense - not always UKARA

BUT no matter what just like UKARA you have to be 18 & meet the criteria to be entered onto database

 

So it still all comes down to the age rather than the defense

 

Buyer is u18 = seller breaking the law

 

From a law side of things - doesn't matter if the 17yr old is the most hard core skillful respected player/marshal in UK

he isn't 18 so he still needs to have his toy gun be it IF or RIF " gifted " to him....

 

That is the legal side of things - end of

I know @ 16 is age of consent but adult film is 18 - I don't make the rules

[Jam_Man]

Youve missed the point a little, its not an under18 buying it. he is having it gifted to him. So that part on its own is fine.

 

The issue here is that the buyer, his parent, who is old enough doesnt have a defence of their own, but the shop deem it ok to sell because they are going to gift it to someone who does play airsoft.

[Jam_Man]

You don't have to play airsoft to buy a RIF, my wife buy's all mine and she has never played a day in her life.

 

She is a costume designer.

 

Plus a proof of defence can be so many things not just ukara

 

They arent costume designers or re-enactors. They have no other defence, they are just parents of an Under 18 who plays airsoft. The shop is using the Under 18s regular play as the defence, nothing else.

[sokar666]

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007

Defences to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act

3. (1) It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a) the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;

( the purposes of display at a permitted event.

The Regulations define ‘permitted activities’ as, ‘the actinq out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation.’

VIOLENT CRIME REDUCTION ACT 2006 (COMMENCEMENT No3) ORDER 2007

21. For airsoft skirmishing, the guidelines suggest that:

• new players must play at least 3 times in a period of not less than 2 months the 2 months before being offered membership;

• membership cards with a photograph and recognised format will be issued for production to retailers;

• a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details; and

• a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months.

(Home Office (09/10/2013): The above is not a statutory requirement but is a process that assists retailers in checking that purchasers are genuine airsoft skirmishers so that the defence outlined under the act can apply. The BAC fully adheres to these guidelines.)

 

The Law is over 18's buying RIF'S or IF'S, this whole defence was setup by retailers to protect there businesses, UKARA especially (LOOK AT THE PART IN RED, IT'S IMPORTANT, NOT A STATUTORY REQUIREMENT, JUST A GUIDELINE), if they do not wish to adhere to it, the retailer is breaking no law. They are not law, they are guidelines set into place that if there shop is audited, they can prove there sales were for airsofting or the required purposes. If the store believes that the RIF being sold is for airsofting purposes then that is there choice, they are breaking no law if the person is over 18. As an example Patrolbase on a regular bases will put you onto the UKARA database after 1 skirmish if you have a receipt from the field in question. I am not on UKARA database but can purchase RIF'S through receipts from skirmishing, the young lad knows the owner, he knows he skirmishes, no law is being broken, the proof of defence has been covered and an over 18 has purchased again no law broken.

 

Remember a proof of defence is a guideline not law set down by retailers so they didn't go out of business, if you go to an airsoft convention/show with all the manufacturer's most will sell without any checks as they assume it's for skirmishing, i know because i've done it.

[Jam_Man]

That is the stance the shop takes.

 

They know the RIF will be used for airsoft, just that it wont be by the purchaser but their son who uses it.

 

There is logic to that and if that is actually legal then it kind of begs the question why any under 18 uses a two tone because as long as they have played airsoft they can just get Mum or Dad to buy a RIF for them even if they havent a defence of their own.

[sokar666]

If the young lad has prooved to the store that he is a skirmisher then yes if it was my store i would sell to the parents (it is still just a toy gun that cannot kill, they just look real). I know it's not exactly the same but i remember when i worked in game, we would sell 18 year old games to parents knowing full well they were for there 12 year old kids, when asked the manager said that's the law we have done our part, it was sold to an adult what happens after that is not there concern. The same can be said for airsofting stores, they know the bot is an active skirmisher, the parents are over 18, as far as they are concerned no laws are being broken, hence the sale is fine.

[Jam_Man]

No thats not a great analogy because there are no restrictions on adults buying an 18 game. If someone buys GTA and then lets their 10 year old play it thats their perogative. The law only applies to sales.

 

There arehowever restrictions on adults buying RIFs (whether you class them as toys or not, they can easily blind for example, somewhat more dangerous than a nerf gun). An adult cant just walk into an airsoft shop and buy a RIF without having a reason to own one. If having a kid who wants to play airsoft is enough of a reason then fair enough.

 

Ive heard plenty of people argue that under 18's can only have one gifted by the parent if the parent has a defence though, ie is an airsofter/re-enactor etc.

 

When has it ever been straight forward though

[AshOnSnow]

If I ran an airsoft store, I'd have "gift cards" for certain guns that parents could buy, and those with valid VCRA defences could come and "cash in", so to speak.

[Jam_Man]

If I ran an airsoft store, I'd have "gift cards" for certain guns that parents could buy, and those with valid VCRA defences could come and "cash in", so to speak.

 

 

And would you class a parent having an under 18 who plays regularly a defence ?

 

To be honest whether its right or not I personally think that would make sense.

[sokar666]

No thats not a great analogy because there are no restrictions on adults buying an 18 game. If someone buys GTA and then lets their 10 year old play it thats their perogative. The law only applies to sales.

 

There arehowever restrictions on adults buying RIFs (whether you class them as toys or not, they can easily blind for example, somewhat more dangerous than a nerf gun). An adult cant just walk into an airsoft shop and buy a RIF without having a reason to own one. If having a kid who wants to play airsoft is enough of a reason then fair enough.

 

Ive heard plenty of people argue that under 18's can only have one gifted by the parent if the parent has a defence though, ie is an airsofter/re-enactor etc.

 

When has it ever been straight forward though

There is only 1 law regarding purchasing a RIF, being 18 and over. There are guidelines put in place by retailers to protect themselves, please see the rules i posted above. Proof of defense was brought in so retailers especially firesupport who was at the front of UKARA to protect there business not anyone else. Any form of proof is fine, damn you could use a facebook page with pictures on it, proof given.

 

Always remember there is only 1 law the rest are guidelines that are not statutary.

[Jam_Man]

There is only 1 law regarding purchasing a RIF, being 18 and over. There are guidelines put in place by retailers to protect themselves, please see the rules i posted above. Proof of defense was brought in so retailers especially firesupport who was at the front of UKARA

 

 

Why do stores need to protect themselves if the only requirement is the buyer is 18 ?

 

Why does UKARA even have to exist if the law doesnt require a defence.They can just ask for 18.

 

What you are saying goes completely against what everyone else is saying, that you need a defence to buy a RIF, not just be over 18.

[sokar666]

 

 

Why do stores need to protect themselves if its perfectly ok to sell to over 18's ?

 

Why does UKARA even have to exist if the law doesnt require a defence.

 

What you are saying goes completely against what everyone else is saying, that you need a defence to buy a RIF, not just be over 18.

Because in 2006, the government wanted to make RIF'S fall under the same laws as actual real steel firearms, the retailers clubbed together and put a case that a sort of database could be made to keep track of sales, hence UKARA was born, the law has never changed, 18 and over, the rest is to keep retailers in line with the government. Again read my post above, they are not statutary, they are guidlines, again not law. Google the history of UKARA and BACS.

 

Online sales, UKARA/BACS is the easy way, actually in store it is there say, if they believe your defense is satisfactory, then that's fine. I use field reciepts for my gun's if and wife for online, i'm not on ukara or bacs.

 

And yes the computer game analagy was a bad one, the point was the law part, they had done what was required, age verification. The airsoft store is the same argument, they checked the validity of the boy who actively and can prove he plays, so sale is fine because was bought by an 18 and over adult, hence the law part.

 

I know plnty of people who have done one skirmish, taken receipt to local airsoft store, big well known ones i might add and bought a RIF, none of this 3 in no more than 2 month's because at the end of the day they are again not law. Sorry to keep drumming that in.

[Jam_Man]

I have read your post already and its contradictory one part of it you are saying the only law is the over 18, then you go on to say you can buy rifs without a UKARA because you have proofs of skirmishing. So you are saying you are providing a defence, well if the only law is being over 18 you dont need that proof surely. Both buying at a convention and Patrolbases system both use the defence system as well, again not demonstrating you only have to be 18.

 

That really doesn't make sense to me.

 

Put it this way if a man walks into an airsoft shop and wants to buy a RIF just to hang on his wall and never play airsoft are you saying thats perfectly legal?

 

EDIT You added a lot more after I posted.

Even though you have said the only law is being 18 everything else you have said just agrees with me, that you need a defence, which is what most peoples idea of what the law is. I have never said anything about 3 games, that is Ukara, I have never said anything about Ukara being the law.

[sokar666]

I have read your post already and its contradictory one part of it you are saying the only law is the over 18, then you go on to say you can buy rifs without a UKARA because you have proofs of skirmishing. So you are saying you are providing a defence, well if the only law is being over 18 you dont need that proof surely. Both buying at a convention and Patrolbases system both use the defence system as well, again not demonstrating you only have to be 18.

 

That really doesn't make sense to me.

 

Put it this way if a man walks into an airsoft shop and wants to buy a RIF just to hang on his wall and never play airsoft are you saying thats perfectly legal?

"Put it this way if a man walks into an airsoft shop and wants to buy a RIF just to hang on his wall and never play airsoft are you saying thats perfectly legal?"

Yes he's breaking no law, he's over 18, now the question should be, will the store sell it to him. Probably not if he can't argue his case of being one of the aforementioned defenses, those are the guidelines put in place to protect retailers. This is why there is so much confusion regarding RIF and IF.

 

You misunderstand me, the original question was about law, that's what i have posted the actual law. UKARA is not law, it is a database designed, built and managed for retailers so they can keep track of sales, so if audited they can show who they were sold to. Yes a valid defence in almost all cases is now required, but that can be anything from 1 receipt, 1 photo, 1 signed diary. The only stipulation is a valid defense (again don't misunderstand, that is for the retailer not government law). The original boy even though 17 can prove he is an active skirmisher, he knows the owner of the store, the parents are over 18, the sale is good in my eyes. Now another store might have stricter rules requiring photo membership or signed reciepts. You see where the confusion comes in.

 

ALways remember UKARA is not law it's a retailers database.

 

Edit - Sorry final point (apart from i apologise to anyone, i'm not arguing, please do not take my points personally) The final sale is at the discretion of the store, valid defense or not. If the store want to sell you a RIF, as long as you are over 18 they can and do i might add, it's just most won't to protect there business. Lol, maybe i should have opened with that statement.

[Jam_Man]

Double post shenanigans

[Jam_Man]

"Put it this way if a man walks into an airsoft shop and wants to buy a RIF just to hang on his wall and never play airsoft are you saying thats perfectly legal?"

Yes he's breaking no law, he's over 18, now the question should be, will the store sell it to him. Probably not if he can't argue his case of being one of the aforementioned defenses, those are the guidelines put in place to protect retailers. This is why there is so much confusion regarding RIF and IF.

 

You misunderstand me, the original question was about law, that's what i have posted the actual law. UKARA is not law, it is a database designed, built and managed for retailers so they can keep track of sales, so if audited they can show who they were sold to. Yes a valid defence in almost all cases is now required, but that can be anything from 1 receipt, 1 photo, 1 signed diary. The only stipulation is a valid defense (again don't misunderstand, that is for the retailer not government law). The original boy even though 17 can prove he is an active skirmisher, he knows the owner of the store, the parents are over 18, the sale is good in my eyes. Now another store might have stricter rules requiring photo membership or signed reciepts. You see where the confusion comes in.

 

ALways remember UKARA is not law it's a retailers database.

 

Edit - Sorry final point (apart from i apologise to anyone, i'm not arguing, please do not take my points personally) The final sale is at the discretion of the store, valid defense or not. If the store want to sell you a RIF, as long as you are over 18 they can and do i might add, it's just most won't to protect there business.

I am not talking about Ukara, I know Ukara isnt law, I bought my own RIFS prior to getting on the database by proving I played Airsoft. I also know about Patrolbase's scheme, Ive posted it on here before too.

What you are saying is very contradictory.

You state above that the man who walks into the shop the store its "probably not" legal if he cant prove a defence. Either being over 18 is the only legal requirement or its not, and Im pretty sure a defence is required, even if not UKARA levels.

I dont know why you say that is only for retailers protection, because if the law says they can sell RIFS and the only requirement is the buyer is over 18 then they would get in no trouble for not checking for one.

Going around in circles to be honest and detracted from the original issue so Ill let anyone else confirm Im wrong but my understanding is its illegal to sell a RIF to anyone without a valid defence, whether thats one game of airsoft or being part of a re-enactment etc.

[sokar666]

 

I am not talking about Ukara, I know Ukara isnt law, I bought my own RIFS prior to getting on the database by proving I played Airsoft. I also know about Patrolbase's scheme, Ive posted it on here before too.

What you are saying is very contradictory.

You state above that the man who walks into the shop the store its "probably not" legal if he cant prove a defence. Either being over 18 is the only legal requirement or its not, and Im pretty sure a defence is required, even if not UKARA levels.

I dont know why you say that is only for retailers, because if the law says they can sell RIFS and the only requirement is the buyer is over 18 then they would get in no trouble for not checking for one.

Going around in circles to be honest and detracted from the original issue so Ill let anyone else confirm Im wrong but my understanding is its illegal to sell a RIF to anyone without a valid defence, whether thats one game of airsoft or being part of a re-enactment etc.

 

You seem to be mistaking guidelines set down by retailers/sellers to protect there businesses and interpreting it as law. Read the VCRA law which is for the sale of RIF's. It is not a statutary requirement if they do not want to check if any of the valid defences are indeed valid. It is just that most stores and even seller's have now become accustomed to doing, as i said previously to protect themselves if one of there sale's show's up as a weapon used in a crime. The only actual written law, is being 18 and over, that has always been and it always will be. The whole valid/proof of defence is to keep the government sweet, so they do not make any new law's and tighten the restrictions. But make no mistake if you walked into firesupport, patrolbase, a convention, a stall at a field, your friend selling you one, they have the final say, if they want to check for a valid defence they can do so, if they don't that is there prerogative, as long as the person is over 18. We have just become accustomed to being checked for a valid defence that we think it's law.

[AshOnSnow]

 

 

And would you class a parent having an under 18 who plays regularly a defence ?

 

To be honest whether its right or not I personally think that would make sense.

 

No, I would not. Now, if said under 18 was there in the store with a site membership and such like with them, that would be a different matter. But a parent just walking into an airsoft shop and saying "my son plays at so and so, I want to buy him a gun" would not be a defence in any way shape or form. At least in my opinion. I would certainly err on the side of caution.

[Jam_Man]

You seem to be mistaking guidelines set down by retailers/sellers to protect there businesses and interpreting it as law. Read the VCRA law which is for the sale of RIF's. It is not a statutary requirement if they do not want to check if any of the valid defences are indeed valid. It is just that most stores and even seller's have now become accustomed to doing, as i said previously to protect themselves if one of there sale's show's up as a weapon used in a crime. The only actual written law, is being 18 and over, that has always been and it always will be. The whole valid/proof of defence is to keep the government sweet, so they do not make any new law's and tighten the restrictions. But make no mistake if you walked into firesupport, patrolbase, a convention, a stall at a field, your friend selling you one, they have the final say, if they want to check for a valid defence they can do so, if they don't that is there prerogative, as long as the person is over 18. We have just become accustomed to being checked for a valid defence that we think it's law.

 

And you arent explaining why a shop would need to protect themselves if its not the law.

 

It is illegal to sell alcohol to Under 18s, so a store just has to prove they are asking for ID, if it were as you suggest thats all an airsoft retailer would need to do to protect themselves.

 

"21. For airsoft skirmishing, the guidelines suggest that:

• new players must play at least 3 times in a period of not less than 2 months the 2 months before being offered membership;

• membership cards with a photograph and recognised format will be issued for production to retailers;

• a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details; and

• a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months.

(Home Office (09/10/2013): The above is not a statutory requirement but is a process that assists retailers in checking that purchasers are genuine airsoft skirmishers so that the defence outlined under the act can apply. The BAC fully adheres to these guidelines.)"

Thats what you posted earlier.

When I read that it doesnt say having a defence is a guideline at all, it says the rules that define what an airsofters defence actualy is are guidelines.

To me that still says a RIF can only be sold to an over 18 who will use it for airsoft skirmishing (ignoring for a moment the other defences like re-enactment).

It sets out guidelines that it should be 3 times in 2 months etc, but that is just a guideline as we know because Patrolbase sell after just one game as they consider that a defence. That doesnt mean that having to need a defence is just a guideline though.

I think you are seeing the word guideline and applying it to the entire process rather than just the part that defines what a defence is.

Happy to be proven wrong but you are far from convincing me.