ratmandan Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 In reality Is ukara only for purchasing rifs? Just read through the vcra Is it illegal to buy an Rif without ukara? Yes Is it illegal to own a realistic gun without ukara? ??? No ???? ????yes???? I'm sure there are plenty of people who have them that dont have ukara...Are they looking at hard time? Is it illegal paint a two tone gun without ukara? Yes but if you can own an Rif without ukara legally, surely unless the fuzz walk in whilst you have a spray can in your hand halfway through painting your gun your ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 3, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 3, 2012 1. Not really if you meet the requirements (Ukara is usualy Industry standard for most Retailer's) 2. not illegal no 3. yes 4. they can still take Paint Sample's and work out the colour's that were their beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshcowin Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Ukara is for retailers to reduce gun crime,you can buy a rif as long as you are 18,you could buy a rif at the weekender as long as you were 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR01 Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Ukara is for retailers to reduce gun crime,you can buy a rif as long as you are 18,you could buy a rif at the weekender as long as you were 18 You could, but you would be breaking the law if you did and could not avail yourself of one of the statutary defences to the VCRA, which effectively bans the sale to anyone without that defence. It's not just the buyer who breaks the law if they do not have a defence, the seller is also in trouble if caught. Read up on the details on here, other forums and on the government websites. This also applies to private sales and / or trades/swaps. Yes, UKARA is purely a retailer organisation to enable them to operate within the law, by ensuring those to whom they sell are, in the case of our hobby, bona fide skirmishers who are registered with a site that meets the regulations. That said, you do not need to be listed on the UKARA database, so long as you have current membership of an insured site and the site can confirm that membership, then that is sufficient. It just makes it easier for the retailer if you are registered with UKARA, because they can quickly check the database to confirm the information you have given them to prove your ability to purchase a RIF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 3, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 3, 2012 Also what he said^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'm only a stamp away anyways...but Iv mentioned somewhere before if somebodys licence has lapsed then technically what defence would they have? "I used to go airsoft" and if somebody without a ukara can own a realistic gun... Then my receipts from skirmishes is surely hard evidence if I was stopped in my car on my way to/from a game as to why I have a realistic gun in my boot... So long as a copper doesn't walk in as I'm spraying it what are they going to do? It's going to be used only for airsoft and so LNG as it isn't illegal to own an Rif and I didn't get caught spraying it I could claim to have bought it off of joe blogs from anywheres ville 8 years ago... Not saying I'm gonna do it just hypothesising paint flake tests Roflmao they barely dust for fingerprints at burglaries (if they turn up at all) the law is an arse and if it's bendable I say bend it Il say it again its bollocks if you wave anygun around or try and rob a bank post office you deserve every bullet they put into you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 4, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 4, 2012 Dosen't matter they will still prosecute you for being in posseion of it unless you keep a diary of the time's you go and have it signed aswell as having UKARA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Dosen't matter they will still prosecute you for being in posseion of it unless you keep a diary of the time's you go and have it signed aswell as having UKARA I will wait another week or 2 then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 4, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 4, 2012 Lol i have had my UKARA for 3 month's and i haven't evenbothered spraying my glock because i like the KWA Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF-UK Founding Member Deva Posted September 4, 2012 AF-UK Founding Member Share Posted September 4, 2012 Lol i have had my UKARA for 3 month's and i haven't evenbothered spraying my glock because i like the KWA Blue Found this quite amusing has to be said. Not worth the potential hassle if you can wait 2 weeks mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Some of the info there is not quite correct. It is NOT an offence to purchase a realistic imitation firearm without a defence. It is illegal to SELL to someone who you are not satisfied has a valid reason for purchasing the RIF. It is the SELLER who commits the offence, NOT the BUYER! Also, UKARA is not the only way of proving a defence. Sensible retailers will take other forms of evidence, such as receipts from airsoft sites if they're not UKARA registered, or other forms of evidence. When all's said and done, the seller needs to see enough evidence to be able to reasonably say to mr plod "I believed the buyer had a valid reason, which provided me with a defence" and be able to back that up. As for prosecution for "manufacturing a RIF", which is effectively what painting a two-tone is, they would need to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that you had painted it yourself whilst not having a defence under VCRA. So you might not have UKARA registration, but if you have joined a site, and played regularly, then I suggest they'd struggle to prove the lack of defence. That said, if you're happy to wait two weeks then that's up to you. Craig, what will they prosecute for? It is NOT illegal to possess an RIF. The UKARA registration rules are a pretty arbitrary set of requirements to prove a defence to a retailer. There is nothing written in law to state what is sufficient evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 9, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 9, 2012 I didn't say it was illegal to own a RIF he was talking about painting it (Manufacture of a RIF) and just saying he bought it off little timmy don't mean Jack sh*t he can't prove it so he did it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Innocent until proven guilty mate no hard evidence....CCTV of me painting the gun no case = wouldn't go to court... Or a get out would be I gave it to my friend who is ukara registered and he painted it and gave it back to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySnacks Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 He's in possession of an RIF. This is not illegal. It's up to them to prove that he's manufactured/altered it to make it an RIF. In court they will have to prove two things beyond reasonable doubt. That he's altered it to make it an RIF, and that he doesn't benefit from any of the defences allowed under VCRA. If he's done some skirmishing and can prove that he uses it for something on the list of allowed activities, then it would be up to a court to decide whether his evidence was sufficient, if the police took it that far. It is his risk to take. In my opinion he is pretty safe, but I hold no formal legal qualifications and so can only give a personal opinion on what would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 And we can leave it at that I think scooby snacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 9, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 9, 2012 " He's in possession of an RIF. This is not illegal. " I didn't say it was... "It's up to them to prove that he's manufactured/altered it to make it an RIF. In court they will have to prove two things beyond reasonable doubt. That he's altered it to make it an RIF, and that he doesn't benefit from any of the defences allowed under VCRA." I take it you don't know you can do a test on paint to find out which colour it was before Assuming he would go the Quick way and just paint it without taking the paint off the Body. Even then if a Trace amount is left behind and they hit that spot they can find it "If he's done some skirmishing and can prove that he uses it for something on the list of allowed activities, then it would be up to a court to decide whether his evidence was sufficient, if the police took it that far." * he Asked if he stopped Playing for 1 year + so he wouldn't be on the Database so he would have to keep "Receipt's" (which i have never seen a site give out BTW) and A Diary signed by a Marshal to be safe Because Receipt's can be Faked But faking Someone's Signature is slightly harder "It is his risk to take. In my opinion he is pretty safe, but I hold no formal legal qualifications and so can only give a personal opinion on what would happen." It is his risk to take what Happen's when the Press get hold of it suddenly their's pressure on the home office to ban it AGAIN = Screwed although that is Worst Case Scenario but we do all know what Journo's are like! *Scratch that he didn't ask but i assume it was Implied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 " He's in possession of an RIF. This is not illegal. "I didn't say it was... "It's up to them to prove that he's manufactured/altered it to make it an RIF. In court they will have to prove two things beyond reasonable doubt. That he's altered it to make it an RIF, and that he doesn't benefit from any of the defences allowed under VCRA." I take it you don't know you can do a test on paint to find out which colour it was before Assuming he would go the Quick way and just paint it without taking the paint off the Body. Even then if a Trace amount is left behind and they hit that spot they can find it "If he's done some skirmishing and can prove that he uses it for something on the list of allowed activities, then it would be up to a court to decide whether his evidence was sufficient, if the police took it that far." He Asked if he stopped Playing for 1 year + so he wouldn't be on the Database so he would have to keep "Receipt's" (which i have never seen a site give out BTW) and A Diary signed by a Marshal to be safe Because Receipt's can be Faked But faking Someone's Signature is slightly harder "It is his risk to take. In my opinion he is pretty safe, but I hold no formal legal qualifications and so can only give a personal opinion on what would happen." It is his risk to take what Happen's when the Press get hold of it suddenly their's pressure on the home office to ban it AGAIN = Screwed although that is Worst Case Scenario but we do all know what Journo's are like! Airsoft is not threatened by people like myself but little scrotums in London and the like who wanna be gangsters Reasonable doubt my ukara mate painted it when I lent it to him...end of And if you book over the phone and pay a deposit on a hire gun you get a receipt All I wanted to do was point out a Grey area I can't find one example on the Internet of somebody being prosecuted for painting an airsoft gun because it's pretty much impossible to prove who painted it Now be a good girl and let the thread die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 9, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 9, 2012 Airsoft is not threatened by people like myself but little scrotums in London and the like who wanna be gangsters Reasonable doubt my ukara mate to painted it when I lent it to him...end of And if you book over the phone and pay a deposit on a hire gun you get a receipt All I wanted to do was point out a Grey area I can't find one example on the Internet of somebody being prosecuted for painting an airsoft gun because it's pretty much impossible to prove who painted it Now be a good girl and let the thread die i said you because i was Hypothesizing lent so it was still your's? i take it you mean what you said before? if so good call but would he be willing to state this to the police? the law is a grey area why do you think the rich get away with what we can't? you won't because their hasn't even been a test case anywhere in the world that i'm even aware of shoot yourself first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Richard65 Posted September 10, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 10, 2012 Innocent until proven guilty mate no hard evidence....CCTV of me painting the gun no case = wouldn't go to court... Although it is possible to get round the rules and the probability of being caught/prosecuted may be small, why bother when it is not that difficult to do your skirmishes and get either site membership or register with the UKARA? The are groups who actively campaign to try and get all RIFs and even IFs banned - see link below for the letters they suggest sending:- http://www.gun-control-network.org/GCN06.htm When you see that air pistols and rifles that are more powerful then our airsoft guns are easier to obtain then it is easy to question the airsoft requirements but if it allows us to continue enjoying the sport then why knock it or help the ani-campaigners by even suggestingb ways of skirting the rules? (To buy an air gun you have to be 18, have identification and buy in a face-to-face transaction. Don't even have to be a member of a club). There is a lot to be said for hiring guns for your first few games while you talk with other players and get to know a bit about the different guns/makes etc and then within a few weeks you can buy anything you like - legally so long as you are over 18. Or a get out would be I gave it to my friend who is ukara registered and he painted it and gave it back to me... The only problem with this idea is knowing that the friend will stick to the story regardless and the stories match. If the police knoked on your door saying they were investigating a firearms violation and XYZ had given your name as supplying the gun, would you be happy to admit to painting it without knowing exactly what offence (if any) they were investigating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I wouldn't be breaking the law owning an Rif I wouldn't have broke any laws buying one from "joe blogs at a car boot sale already painted this colour your honour" he would of though, go catch him officer he might be there next week I very much doubt they would bother! Or my friend gave it to me before he moved to Australia I could think up a fair few more reasons but I cannot be arsed as it doesn't matter So unless I got caught painting it Iv broken no laws in the eyes of the law In court it's up to the prosecution to prove you did whatever you are being accused of. Which they would not be able to do unless you were caught painting a gun paints tests or not there would be no evindence so no case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I wouldn't be breaking the law owning an Rif I wouldn't have broke any laws buying one from "joe blogs at a car boot sale already painted this colour your honour" he would of though, go catch him officer he might be there next week I very much doubt they would bother! Or my friend gave it to me before he moved to Australia I could think up a fair few more reasons but I cannot be arsed as it doesn't matter So unless I got caught painting it Iv broken no laws in the eyes of the law In court it's up to the prosecution to prove you did whatever you are being accused of. Which they would not be able to do unless you were caught painting a gun paints tests or not there would be no evindence so no case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratmandan Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Sorry about the double post friggin thought I hadn't sent the first one stupid friggen ipad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters TPI Posted September 10, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 10, 2012 I Know you wouldn't be braking the law owning a RIF............................................................................. .................................... No you wouldn't but he would and could say he sold it to you two-tone besides all Car Boot's i have taken part in have at least 1 set of the Old Bill and the event organiser's take down your Plate Number to Make sure each person has paid their bit Gave it to you fine don't see any trouble's their though if you have the one's that have had a bad day or an especially Annoying Poke hole's in their story cop i'd rather be doing it my way gonna through away the Paint Can's aye? ^^^^^ which actual part are we debating again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted September 10, 2012 Supporters Share Posted September 10, 2012 Having read this I think I'll pile in with my point of view. Manufacturing a RIF without a defence is a crime, there's no disputing that, however, proving that someone has manufactured said RIF is pretty difficult and entirely impractical for the police to do. Providing you are a responsible person who uses their RIF for airsoft there is absolutely no reason the police could ever even know you'd done it. Additionally, 'proving a defence' is pretty woolly in itself, and UKARA is by no means the only way of doing so, nor is it formally recognised by the law. I'm not UKARA registered, although I meet the criteria and could have my local site register me, I don't see the point at the moment at all, I can prove my 'defence' really very easily to any police officer that asks (and have done so) simply by providing the phone number of the site I play at regularly. All the copper is going to do is call them and ask "does James Cheeseright play at your site?" the response will be "yes" and that'll be the end of it. As a specific example, I own a Scar-L, it's my baby. When I bought it, in order to save hassle (like I said, not registered) I ordered it from zero one and had it 2toned, very straightforward, didn't slow down the shipping and no questions asked. As soon as the gun arrived in my house, I stripped it down and removed every trace of the green paint with some fairy powerspray, thus manufacturing a RIF. Within a fortnight I got a knock on the door from some firearms officers as I had ordered a real-steel (lol, what a ridiculous term) EOTech riser from brownells.com in the states which had been held by customs. They of course wanted to know what I was doing buying gun parts from America, so I showed them. Took them upstairs to my bedroom and let them have a look at my M4, my SCAR and my 5-7. Bear in mind these were firearms officers and so knew what it was they were looking at, no probing questions, no "are you UKARA registered?", just a pair of policemen who turned into 15 year old boys for 20 mins when they got to play with a couple of replica assault rifles. In conclusion then, paint your gun, as long as you're satisfied that you can prove you have a valid use for a RIF you're safe. Ignore the "OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT UKARA, POLICEZ ARE GONNA SHOOT YOU!!!" crowd, the policemen that came to check I wasn't a nutter didn't even know what UKARA was and neither did they care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexb111 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 In conclusion then, paint your gun, as long as you're satisfied that you can prove you have a valid use for a RIF you're safe. Ignore the "OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT UKARA, POLICEZ ARE GONNA SHOOT YOU!!!" crowd, the policemen that came to check I wasn't a nutter didn't even know what UKARA was and neither did they care. Depends on who you get really, Firearms officers are usually carrying big guns, highly professional and in life threatening situations which means when their on a job their usually very serious until their confident there's no danger. I tend to find people with those kind of jobs actually relish the easier jobs where they can relax a bit, I mean their people too As long as you make it clear its a toy/replica straight away and then just talk to them you should be fine. Joke a bit (pick your joke with a bit of care though ), make them feel at home and their more likely to overlook small issues. As has been previously said technically your being illegal by manufacturing but if the police are reasonable and you prove your a normal guy and not a nutter/terrorist they usually follow the line of: 'We have bigger problems than this guy' or 'I can't be bothered to run this guy in and spend the time and money getting forensics to check on if it really is a RIF or a 2tone illegally sprayed.' Finally skirmishing local where the site owners answer the phone is usually the best piece of evidence you can possibly have. It turns a good chance of prosecution into a lengthy court case with no guarantee depending on lawyers and the judge which is usually far too much effort unless the police dislike you or have a reason to suspect you. Its no UKARA but a good lawyer can argue it as a defence on whats really a gray area of the law. Finally: Whats the point? 3 skirmishes in 2+ months really isn't hard, and if your spending that much on a RIF or 2tone sprayed it won't hurt too much just to do the skirmishes. They really have made it easy for people, I don't see why people insist on looking for ways round it!! - Actually thats going in the haters thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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