[What's the Most Efficient Stock GBB Pistol You've Used!]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

Define effecient.

 

You mean shots per fill, resistance to cole weather, or rounds required to hit a target?

All of the above 👆 

2 hours ago, BigStew said:

TM HK45

I've heard a lot of good things about this. Apparently the VFC HK45 is very good too? 

[What's the Most Efficient Stock GBB Pistol You've Used!]

The title says it all really!

Let me know your thoughts... 

 

[My First Build!]

That's a fair point! I'll use what parts I have left to complete the second build since it will be my backup anyway and see how it goes! Maybe I should have done it the other way round and practiced on the secondary before the primary 🤷‍♂️

I think I've done a pretty good job though considering 😎

I guess I won't know for sure until I take it for a proper spin though! I'm looking forward to that! I've not actually skirmished for years! 

[My First Build!]

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

Yeh that will be a very perky battery!

 

SHS gears, tappet plates etc are fine.

Ive used the above parts so many times with excellent results I don’t use much in the way of SHS or ZCI any more.

 

ICS Orange and Retro Arms are great mid range POM pistons.

Im not a fan of full steel pistons, I like at least a 1/3 soft teeth so that if SHTF the damage is limited to a new piston and a gearbox clean out... as opposed to trashed gears, bearings and/or worse.

 

Pretty much any gearbox shell can be made good, that’s down to the tech.

Cool, thank you 👍 I'll have a look into those parts, I was hoping not to have to shell out on any more but I suppose just a few tiny parts won't hurt 🤷‍♂️

 

I can't find lonex stuff in stock anywhere! 🤷‍♂️ 

[My First Build!]

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

RE trigger response, the torqueier motor is going to get up and go quicker from a semi auto point of view.

All other things kept equal.

 

And that would be the asg? 

 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

Matching parts is utter bullshit, use whatever parts combo yields the best fit/tolerance/air seal/performance.

 

I did wonder! That's good to know, thank you 👍 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

11.1V is going to push it I think, you’ll be right on the 25RPS tipping point, and will need AB at that point for sure.

 

If you want a semi only gun go 25RPS for the trigger response.

Make sure to give some fresh air to the motor for heat dissipation if you’re going to run it hard semi spamming.

 

If you are building for field use, stick to 7.4V, the ROF will be much more useful accuracy and ammo conservation wise, plus you won’t be gunning the internals so much.

 

Yeah, I think I might save playing with 11.1 for a later date. I'm thinking of getting hold of the biggest 7.4 30c that I can fit in the stock, I think 3300mah and running with the 12:1s to achieve the trigger response and also get decent rof for when required, also so I don't have to use any AB or precocking hopefully🤞I'd rather not over work the motor or leave the spring compressed when I'm not using it. 

 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

PS if you are buying Gucci guys I find Lonex to be the best of the bunch performance wise for cyl heads, pistons, nozzles etc.

I really like LPE piston heads.

ICS or SHS pistons are great.

Def’ get some Airlab Sorbo in there if you go 11.1V route.

Noted! Thank you 👍 

What are the other shs bits like if I was going to get a full set? 

 

And gearbox wise, I have a g&p I was going to use for the 2nd build, will that be decent enough? 

[My First Build!]

11 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

 

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

 

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

 

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

 

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

11 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

 

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

 

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

 

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

 

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

[My First Build!]

20 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

The 18k rpm motors tend to be 27 tpa.

22 tpa motors tend to be 22k rpm

 

18/19 tpa tend be about 25k rpm.

16 tpa tend to be about 30k rpm.

 

All of a sudden the 14 tpa motors tend to shoot up to 40k

 

You can't quite lock all the same tpa motors in one speed rating,

coz the swg or single wire gauge of enameled wire used varies

in the windings on the armature etc...

 

Some makes will use a slightly thicker/thinner gauge wire

Plus the strength of the magnets and how precise the motor is built

Higher end motors are soldered onto armature contacts and balanced

Most China motors are simply crimped (after stripping away enamel)

 

Some say the same motor with neodym magnets run slightly slower,

than ferrite on NO LOAD as there is a stronger field,

this may be true - but very slightly 500-1,000rpm on NO LOAD,

under load this disappears as the ferrite motor is susceptible to load more.

So in general mild use the motors is rpm terms perform about the same.

 

When you start pushing it then you can use a GOOD ferrite motor,

if you are on a budget and you shim well and ensure the box runs efficiently.

Though often it is wise to use a good motor if you can run to it...

 

Hence me commenting on all those higher end bits & you used a JG motor.

 

The JG is a decent stock motor, has a bit more zest than say a G&G 18k,

certainly more than an even cheaper stock China motor in cheapo gun.

 

It works, you up to what 17rps maybe on 7.4v 13:1 on a 22tpa

That is about right for the motor as I said...

 

It is about a 22,000 rpm motor, some 22tpa's might get to 24k,

if wound with a slightly thicker wire, some might be 20k with thinner wire.

 

The ASG is about same spec but has more torque due to neodym magnets,

(and higher build quality).

 

The SHS / Rocket is a 16 tpa China motor crimped but with neodym,

to produce 28k to 30k tops.

 

The Neodym motors will have better response from still as the torque is greater,

they start to turn under load almost instantly due to stronger neodym magnets,

that a minor slower start with ferrite magnets.

 

That is not to say ferrites are useless, they may stall if you try to pull m120/130,

definitely stall on 7.4v but on 11.1v it gives the struggling motor a kick up the arse.

 

You can use a ferrite on 7.4v mildly tweaked gun if done right,

as if it is done well will be no more strain than so-so shimmed stock gun.

 

The JG is about same Speed as the ASG, but ASG has a lot more torque/response.

You can use either of those motors you got, choose one that gives the result you seek.

 

Build another gun, try to plan & experiment to attain results you want in 2nd gun,

then with what you learned apply to this first gun to see if you can do the same.

 

The ASG with 12:1 will be just under 20rps,

The SHS with 13:1 will be a little over it...

 

That is how I would pair it up,

If OCD kicks in, plan the ASG 12:1 setup for a gun where you can fit/use say bigger 30c.

(Give it a whisker more zest perhaps).

The SHS 13:1 in a gun with less space to use a 20c 25c 1500mah.

Then they should in "theory" perform a little closer to each other,

leaving you to decide which is the slightly better of the two.

 

But both will be pretty snappy builds & tbh once you nudge 20rps,

A couple of rps is hardly noticeable.

Where as 12rps & you gain 2 extra rps - is more noticeable,

On say 30rps going to 32 or even 33 it's fuck all,

as you get into twenties, the odd round or two is negligible,

it is more a case of how well it runs than if it fires a round or two faster

 

 

 

Thank you! And as far as the asg combined with 12:1 goes, would that cycle efficiently with no precock or ab required? Or would modifications need to be made? Or is that irrelevant if I'm using a leviathan or titan? 

[My First Build!]

2 hours ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

JG is 22tpa according to data

a lot of OLD databases have dissappeared

this requires google translate but says a lot about motors n shit...

 

https://pmakiku.pic.fi/blog/57/aeg-moottorit-yms/

 

overspin is combated by Short-Stroking and/or Active Braking/Pre-Cocking

(pro's n con's for all methods)

 

you should be OK on a 300mm barrel up to say 24/25 rps before it starts to double fire

(gun is talking to you), on most std guns with Cut Off Lever etc...

 

The whole issue is to not run the gun TOO FAST - twenties is plenty

get into 20's is nice, go above 25rps and you may need to consider Short-Stroking on a heavier spring

to avoid PME

 

You won't hit PME straight away, but you start to sail closer to it

one little mis-feed/jam and the piston will be slowed on its return and likely rip fuck out of drive chain

You might not smash shit until 30rps - depends on build/spring used etc....

 

I'm just telling you what risks there are at what speeds etc...

and roughly how to plan the build, gears, spring, SS, motor, battery etc...

 

If it was THAT easy then every gun would fire the same - but it is not

a long AK requires a full stroke for volume , so can't really SS it

shorter guns say 300mm can be short stroked

and much shorter 141~233 can be DSG'd if you want to

 

What you seek is something around the twenties - whisker under say 18 to 24 rps

there are many ways to achieve this as I mentioned with gears/motor/battery etc...

 

You could build an exceptional stock gun & run on 11.1v to hit 20rps aprox

Or you use 13:1's & slightly better stock motor like JG 22tpa or G&G Blue "Powerful Motor"

(basically the 25k Ifrit motor but with ferrite magnets not neodym)

to get 18/19rps with good 16awg wiring deans etc....

 

or use a 30k motor to hit say 24rps with 13:1

 

as long as you don't go TOO NUTZ sticking to twenties up to say 24/25 tops you should be OK

that is the limit I tend to go to, a smidge over 20 on 7.4v & happy as a pig in shit basically

I was talking about the rpm rather than tpa of the jg blue, 18k as opposed to the 22k of the asg. Both being 22 tpa, would that mean that torque is the same but asg is just a smidge quicker? 

Basically I want to try and achieve as close to a nice round 20rps and thought pairing the 22k asg and 12:1 might get this with 7.4? 

I would also like it to cycle efficiently with no ab or pre cock? Is this likely?

 

I'm planning a higher speed build in another gun using the rocket ht and more sacrificable parts after I've nailed this build. 

[My First Build!]

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

just put the shs/rocket in there with 13:1 on 7.4v = golden

or whatever sounds better tbh

 

the ASG 22k = same rpm as JG (in theory) as both are 22tpa (me thinks)

just the ASG is built to higher tolerances & neodym magnets to provide more torque under load

what this means is performance as ROF will be the same (roughly) to what you are getting atm

 

you could just run 11.1v on the JG for a while, will work as you not going too crazy

muliply the 7.4v rof by 1.55 = expected rof on 11.1v with extra cell

(it's a tiny bit more than 50% as the extra cell is boosting the gun already cycling on 2 cells)

 

VERY VERY ROUGH ROF CALCULATION...

 

MOTOR RPM (in 1,000's) divided by ACTUAL GEAR RATIO

(then multiply by 10 = expected ROF on UK 340~350 fps gun)

 

22,000rpm = 22k

22 / 13.5 = 1.62962963 on 7.4v LiPo

1.62962963 x 10 = 16.2962963 (shift decimal point to right)

 

16.2962963 rps on your present build

on 11.1v = 16.2962963 x 1.55 = 25.25925926 rps

 

30k Rocket...

 

30k / 13.5 = 2.22222 or 22.222 rps on 7.4v LiPo

or 34.4444 on 11.1v LiPo

 

as said ROUGH as ol' boots calculation as variation in motors, seals, shimming, amp draw etc...

plus certain LiPo's their capacity and burst rate (20c is a bit lame, 25c or 30c is better for tweak stuff)

wiring/deans and lots of variables will result in slightly varying results but a rough ball park figure

of what you might expect in various builds

Thanks Duck! 

From what I had read the jg is 18k? My reasoning for usg over shs is better trigger response and run time efficiency, would that not be the case?

 

Were I to go shs could I not run onto possible pe/overspin issues? Might they also be problems if I switched to 11.1 regardless of which build I use it with?

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

blockquote widget

[My First Build!]

Hello peops, so, it looks like I'm going to have to crack open the gearbox again, it feels like I have a longer trigger pull than I started with and I'm a bit concerned that I didn't fix the grub screw securely enough, the last thing I want is him rattling around inside the gearbox! 

 

Since I'm going back in I figured I would switch the motor from the jg blue to either the asg infinity u22000 or the rocket high torque, I think I'm erring towards the asg as it seems the better motor? I'm also considering changing out the 13:1 gears for 12:1 since I might have to reshim anyway, not that it's likely to make a huge difference. I'll let you know how I get on. 

On another note, regarding batteries, I'm considering grabbing an 11.1 as I've not experimented with one yet, hopefully my gun won't melt in my hands!

Otherwise, if I go for 7.4 would something like this be overkill or a good shout? 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/nuprol-extreme-7-4v-3300mah-30c-crane-lipo-battery

[My First Build!]

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

lemme guess - you install a basic mosfet but one with AB perhaps

that stopped the gun asap with COL slightly still raised

 

the AR latch might not be engaging 101% every time

had it when thick wires running from rear on a G&G slightly rubbed or touched the back

this would cause the ARL to slowly return and rollback (not Asda) would occur

 

or a different example is when doing DSG's the ARL has to grab very very quickly so the tip is reduced

and checked to ensure it is exactly right size/length to grab the bevel latch immediately straight away

 

seigetek stuff...

 

 

daft question - you did install the ARL as some early fancy mosfets with AB

think the BTC suggested that the ARL latch could be removed

yeah that didn't work out too well when people tried it & had to replace the ARL

 

if you hold the grip you will feel the motor thrashing about - it is likely a loose fitting in grip

bits of tape, squidgy rubber to stop the very excessive play in grip/motor might help

bit of a bodge but might work to reduce some thrashing about on semi perhaps

The fet was the basic jefftron trigger switch replacement without ab, I made a point of getting one without, and yes there was definitely an arl. 

 

I'll have a go shimming the motor with a bit of electrical tape on each side and see if it makes a difference. 

[My First Build!]

23 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

start on other gun perhaps...

get two kinda working and you can fine tune the one you are less happy with

 

yes M4 motor grips are a wank at times

some flop about loads & other quite solid & tight

 

bit of advice - try not to fuck about with different grips perhaps

often some of the best or most compatible grips came on the original gun

(not always)

but usually people go back to the stock grip once they find their cool look fake magpul grip is a pile of shit

or the aftermarket base plate is shit fit

 

NOPE NOT GOING TO WRITE A WAR & PEACE NOVEL ON PISTOL GRIPS & MOTOR TOWERS

i'm leaving it there - take a day off it's Sunday Duck

Originally it did have a magpul grip but the motor didn't seem to sit in the plate comfortably and it was impossible to shim the bevel to the pinion as a result, so I got hold of a newer pts grip and it's a much better fit! The gun was originally using the magpul grip somehow but I can't figure out how it could have run efficiently 🤷‍♂️ maybe it wasn't! 

 

Ha, yes take a day off dude! You've given me plenty of information and it's much appreciated! 

8 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

if he has used the SHS bevel with 6 latches on a 13:1 set

 

4.5 rotations of bevel to 1 sector revolution x 6 latches = 27 latches per cycle

4 latches on a 18:1 or 6.25 rotations = 25 latches per cycle

 

if my maths are correct - but ARL might not be fully engaging 101% 

though I suspect the tower on motor is say a thin 9mm or 9.2mm diameter

& the entry hole in box/grip is say 9.65mm - allowing a bit of flap to begin with

 

then the motor is a bit small/thin inside a wide grip so motor has opportunity to slop about

 

when you pull the trigger - it throws itself about resisting against meshing with bevel exactly

until it settles down and behaves, then when cycle completes it lays where the base plate is try to place it

 

some base plates throw angle out a bit differently

and the actual hole where the end bell sits can be snug/loose on different motors too

 

all this adds to slopping about if your motor/grip choice is poorly made allowing the slack to create the slight thud

 

ARL is usually a slightly whirring as it rolls back - or look at piston at rest if box has rear window to see

if creeping backwards often if ARL is ineffective

 

FUCK IT - said I was taking day off

Ha! You couldn't resist! 

Well I think it was more to do with the cut off lever /trigger switch because before mosfet it was fine and after, not. I wondered whether the fet caused a shorter cycle than the trigger switch meaning that the cut off cam was stopping whilst engaging the lever and stopping the trigger trolley from resetting? 

Obviously I've since installed the leviathan so no lever or trigger switch assembly now. 

[My First Build!]

44 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

I'd give a bit of time to bed in a bit with firefly nub etc....

 

I have gained a little tiny bit of "wisdom" perhaps coz I've broken so so many guns

learning from our mistakes is essentially how you acquire wisdom

(or other people's mistakes, but usually our own)

 

wise after the event/fuckup as they say

 

 

^^^^ THIS sums up shitty toy guns (and other stuff) pretty well imho ^^^^

 

but try stuff out at times, just to be sure is no bad thing

just learn from your mistakes (hopefully the less costly ones)

 

it is just mostly same ol' same ol' tried & tested stuff most of us have read and learnt ourselves to be so

with a few variations on the gospel according to the peew peew of airsoft really

 

at first many of us wanted a 30rps or dsg gun

now many look to twenties is plenty - smidge either side of it

with most of us listening to how smooth it cycles, wondering what amp it draws etc....

than how friggin' fast the wanker's gun shoots

 

but we try to do it to the best of our abilities in the hope we improve as we go

(that is the theory but doesn't account for the odd nightmare or two we all still have sometimes)

I agree. 

This gun has been a work in progress for months now on and off, it's given me a few headaches along the way, tried various things that didn't work, I thought I'd nailed it before but had issues with midcycling after installing a basic fet, I've learnt a lot along the way and now it seems consistent, sounds sweet, is responsive and looks the nuts imo 👌🏻 maybe I'll leave as is (probably won't!) and start on the next one! 

33 minutes ago, Davegolf said:

@Lex Dangler yes it may have had a lot of AB, or other abuse, I wouldn’t write it off though.

Pop the brushes out and have a look at the wear, there is a LOT of meat on these motors.

It may just benefit from a clean up and a couple drops of oil on the bearings.

 

Most people run waaaay to much AB.

 

Ive been very impressed with the Lonex helical pinion/bevel sets.

TBH I think the ASG pinion profile is pretty rubbish - aka generally noisy and doesn’t mesh / wear well with most bevel gears.

 

@Sitting Duck Yes I consider 20 RPS to be a fast gun these days!

Thanks dude! I'll crack it open and investigate! 

 

I've noticed that there seems to be a bit of movement from motors inside grips, I can feel/hear it kind of clonk about in there, is that normal? Or does it depend on the motor/grip?

Will it detract from the efficiency of the build? Is it worth shimming with electrical tape or something to reduce the movement? 

[My First Build!]

 

Oh, the gun feeds perfectly by the way so I guess the hop/bucking are working well together, tbh I didn't actually do anything with that yet, just dropped it in as it came.

Unless that's what's causing fps to rise as hop is applied rather than fall? 

5 minutes ago, Davegolf said:

I can vouch for the ASG CNC U22000.

Great cool running and economical motor, which is also very quiet.

 

On a 13:1 gear set with 350fps spring and 7.4V expect 16 RPS.

Which I think is about the perfect rate of fire, both in fire power lay down and the sound / realism.

 

Also with this motor, spring and gear ratio speed you will need very little active braking - which also saves battery power and extends the life of your motor.

 

The motor is very powerful and as such RPS will not change much if you add a stronger or weaker spring.

They are also extremely reliable.

 

I would fit a Lonex helical bevel set in there too - quieter and easier to setup.

Thanks dude! I'll look into the lonex bevel! 

Tbh I'm a bit sceptical about using the U22000, when I took it out of the gun it came in there was a lot of copper residue in the motor grip, I'm assuming from the previous owner using active breaking? I wonder whether it could be damaged as a result? Although the gearset looks spanking new still so maybe it's not been used that much? 

 

I'm happy with 16rps, I just wanted to make sure that's what I should be getting and the gun is running efficiently. 

[My First Build!]

9 hours ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

 

Rocket will offer more performance/rof

may draw say 15a on a auto burst say

where as the ASG is going to draw less amps, deplete battery less, run bit cooler

 

3rd motor - I can't place it so can't say how it compares

looks like it might have a mark/drill mark to balance armature like a decent motor

but unaware of spec/magnets/tpa to say where it might sit vs Rocket/ASG

 

the amp draw on what these fancy bollox ECU's might say in spec varies to a power meter

coz these fancy fuckers draw some current themselves & report differently to a simple power meter

so the estimated 15a is a RC Power Meter on auto burst - Titan/Jefftron may report differently

but you compare what the unit says for each motor than take as gospel my figures from these...

 

 

One possible minor issue is with these G&G/SHS type motors...

By that I mean the way the end bell is fitted, with a ferrous lockring

then 2 x usually m2.5 screws screw into the lockring from end bell cap

they should have a plastic washer under them to insulate the poles

(otherwise you effectively have a short or risk of shorting if washers fail)

The m2 or m2.5 bolts can fail to fully centre & have one side conducting

& if both conduct - well you are in for shock - excuse pun

 

Possibly why @ak2m4does mention a possible warning about using Active Breaking

in some builds like Titans/Jefftron's etc....

 

Advisory:
I've been hearing reports of Gate Titan Adaptive Active Break function is causing motors to fail.  Please do not use this feature till you are sure it will not affect the motor.

 

 

 

Now what anybody who is experiencing this could try...

is to replace ONE of the screws with a PLASTIC m2.5 bolt

and/or ensure bolts are centred correctly no risk of touching brush plates

adding a better/thicker more robust plastic m2.5 washer if unsure

(reason for just ONE is that the neodym magnets will just pull the damn lockring downward

if you remove both and the length is a bastid to get exactly right to bite and pull the lockring up)

you can do both but just one will suffice to ensure no short risk across poles

think they are 2.5mm - though on some they are m2, usually m2.5 I think but does vary

 

TL-DR, it can be an issue on fancy ECU's if you use AB on "some" motors

(cheaper motors like JG, most stock motors and "maybe" ZCI 22tpa use "tabs"

at sides than 2 bolts/lockring, so no short risk on tabbed motors)

and I suspect it could be due to the lockring system allowing a risk of a short

which under AB where polarity is reversed to stop motor...

the flash bastid monitoring system of ECU is saying Houston we (might) have a problem...

(just my thoughts on these type of cans/motors - originally shorts were happening in flash

expensive Systema Motors a while back and there was a couple of fixes/work arounds

though anodised - it was the conductive bolts, brush plates & lockring causing the short

if any insulation failed or bolts touched the sides of brush plates etc...)

There was other stuff like a piece of insulation tape under plates - not needed for plastic ends

(nah really it was the screws shorting on lockring if not properly insulated - try 1 plastic bolt)

 

Anyway....

 

there are 8t, 9t (not sure about 11t but possible, and 12t bevels

but nigh on most are 10t bevels that are used as the std spec for bevels

 

minor alterations in gear ratio matters little in most cases

though the ratio is obviously a factor, but difference between 12:1 & 13:1

is like 16:1 (17.25:1 in most 16's) to 18:1's (18.65) - hardly any big massive difference

 

The Maxx is "likely" to be more compatible as Prowin can be picky for some people/builds

Both are not cheap - perhaps overpriced on the genuine ones (Prowin)

and snides can be a gamble

Plus you using prommy, which can have protruding bucking lips

and plop that in a Prowin and you could be looking at feed issues from bb catching on prommy lips

 

you wanna fuck about with stuff...

get this...

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/hop-up-chambers/zci-rotary-hopup-chamber-plastic-m4

 

I recently bought a clone SHS Blue rotatry hop with a TWG order...

and on closer inspection the arm was different with a built in nub like pic shows...

 

 

ok not the blue plastic hop unit but arm is similar

yeah but that's good right ??? NO it ain't

that is hard plastic and I'm stuck with that nub on it

so if that hard plastic nub tears up a maple leaf or prommy or half decent bucking

leaving me stuck with it - I'm gonna be pissed, plus a softer nub option is best

rather - I'll fucking decide the nub and its hardness - thank you TWG

 

hopefully real SHS or ZCI rotary hops are still have the arc'd arms

so yeah, I'd be tempted to grab a ZCI one first and build a new hop,bucking,barrel combo

(leaving existing one intact in case you have issues)

 

fuck about with ANOTHER hop/barrel combo, leaving your existing working one as is

(in case you fuck shit up or tear bucking)

 

you don't HAVE to use all high end parts, usually they have better tolerances to them

but also care & attention to detail is in fact more important than always buying the higher end stuff

but watch out for prommy lips catching/fouling in some hop builds/combos

 

as always be careful just how much or how nutz you go all at once...

change what you NEED to, if it ain't broke & all that

otherwise you will be opening more & more cans of worms/issues to attend to

Blimey dude, you really know your stuff! Are you running on lipo and wired to deans? 😁

 

I didn't particularly go for all high end parts, but I have them so I might as well use them! Basically my whole reason for doing this build was the challenge, I take everything apart, tinker and optimise, even a toaster! I had never attempted an aeg before, then lockdown happened so I thought I would give it a go, I bought a few upgraded second hand guns that needed some work but looked in good shape, figured that if they're a lot cheaper than new but with better parts I'd be better off and this gun was the result. I still have enough parts to build a second but want to optimise this one before I start on the next. 

I do have what I believe to be a stock g&p magpul sentry, apart from having a titan installed, it's where the third motor came from and having done some research I believe it is a g&p motor, and assuming it's stock, according to the spiel it's an m160. Not sure how that compares to the others. 

https://gpairsoft-uk.com/shop/en/50132-gp-airsoft-deluxe-sentry-magpul-gp-gp-dxe002.html

Until I crack it open I won't know for sure whether it is all stock but it has the original hop and barrel from the looks of it which I assume would be the first things to get changed.  

 

It does need to be opened up at some point as the selector is knackered and the gb would probably benefit from a regrease as it's not been used for a very long time.

 

My mottos are;

If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is! 

And;

ALWAYS GO FULL RETARD!

[My First Build!]

4 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

Rocket's are supposed to be same or nigh on as SHS HT

Originally green, think they might be slightly slower say 28k than 30k

though manufacturing variations exist from these high precision sweatshops

 

there have been revisions to Rockets - now have vents on some motor cans

but they are believed to be about 28~30k like SHS HT's

 

SHS HT's vary, they used to have the wolf on them but now a logo for a number of years

something between 25k to say 33k is quite popular for a godd trade off in power/response

without draining your battery asap like insane High Speed motors tend to do

 

12:1 over 13:1 is fuck all really, the aprox 8% change in ratio drops to say 5% due to slight increase to load

so if 13:1 rolls ok with motor of choice I'd be in no rush to change much

 

I mean you could mess with a slower 9t bevel - or change a 9t for a quicker 10t bevel

but usually most sets come with 10t bevels, though SHS do list sets with 9t in them

(majority are 10t bevels, people change to 9t for a slightly slower, more torquey option

or if wanting a 13:1, really 13.5:1 to go to a 14.85:1 ratio if smidge too quick/straining)

 

nah fuck messing around with ultra fine tuning ratios that much

more important is how it runs than trying to go ultra nutz in a quest for that missing 1 or 2 rps extra

Thanks for all your help and information dude, It's really appreciated!

 

I had no idea about the 9/10 tooth bevel, I know the gearset I have installed is maybe five years old, could that indicate it's a 9? It's barely been used though from the look of it despite it's age. 

 

I basically want to build the best possible gun from the parts I have available and it seems that the motor is the only thing that's falling short. 

 

These are the other motors, is one going to suit my build better than the jg blue?  

On another note! What's the better hop between the prowin and maxx? 

[My First Build!]

 

42 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

So you got deans, but like I said my gut personal feeling is the fancy ECU bollox do skim a smidge off

the only possible area is the motor had a bit of carbon build up on it being s/hand

 

which (no offense btw), is kinda weird you spent all that time/money

but then went for a s/hand motor (black ferrite or silver neodym magnets ???)

if you was using SHS gears then just use a SHS HT motor is a general rule of thumb

as they will mesh well though the shimming of bevel to pinion is slightly different to present JG perhaps

not very different in way/angle the pinion is cut, but could still be a smidge different as all pinions go

 

if you drop a SHS HT in there you should be up to around 23/24rps

and depending if you have alter the motor height much will indicate if you need to really re-shim bevel

 

but the performance isn't that bad

normally I aim for hitting near 19/20 coz less chance of releasing trigger too early leaving COL raised (semi)

As you got bells whistles, the gun will always complete cycle no matter what in semi etc...

and the response can be improved with a bit of fancy pre-cock if motor is OK with it

(might struggle with insane pre-cock, but test/adjust for best response with JG)

 

nice gun/build, but did you run out of money for motor with Chrimbo approaching ???

just kidding

 

hop thingy is probably it bedding in I expect

(or you got piss poor mixed weight bb's)

Ha, the majority of the bits are second hand, bought here or there and cannibalised from other guns. Only the leviathan is new, I did try to drop in a titan I pinched from another gun but had issues with the optical sensors, maybe because of the shiny gearbox 🤷‍♂️ so opted for micro switches instead. 

 

No need to mess about with pre cock, response is already incredible! 

 

I'll invest in an shs ht and if I have to reshim I might swap out the gear set for 12:1 from the gun that had the titan in it, they're in really good nick. 

 

I do have a couple of other motors from other guns, an asg U22000, a g&p but I have no idea what one, no stickers 🤷‍♂️ and.. Oh! I've got a rocket high torque! It's new too, got it with a bunch of spare upgrade parts someone was selling. Isn't that the same as shs? 

[My First Build!]

25 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

The performance now @ 16.7rps is probably about right for spec of motor...

 

JG blue/black is supposed to be a 22tpa so a slight smidge quicker than most stock motors

(probably 22tpa is 22k motor)

(a little behind an ICS which is supposed to be about 19/20 tpa, but still slightly better)

(ICS 2000 say is about 25k)

most stock motors tend to be 26~27tpa a whisper more torque but weak ferrite magnets

mean these motors can stall easy if old/dirty and attempt to pull stronger springs/pre-cocked

 

However motor is s/hand and likely a bit of carbon on it, so robbed you of hit maybe 17~17.5rps

and you wouldn't get a massive amount more even with thick rewire, no breaks etc....

(you'd never really break the 20rps barrier - close to it but just wouldn't on 7.4v 340fps

well you might hit 21rps if you could get excellent seals, m95 or so with a creepy long tight barrel etc...

but that would be with everything going your way, massive wind behind you and ton of luck)

realistically nah, 17.5rps there abouts is about limit of what you can squeeze out

 

So where you are is about right-ish all things considered imho

you could squeeze a bit more out going the extra mile - but not a MASSIVE amount

 

What you "could" have done....

if your gun was shooting @ say lame 12~13rps on 7.4v

then see if you can add a flyback diode on the motor then run on 11.1v

(reduces the arcing at switch for non-mosfet guns)

then you would go from 12~13 rps to say 19rps, perhaps nudge 20rps on 11.1v

a quick boost - diode should be fitted if no mosfet though, for little time/work

 

What is the gun anyway ???

coz some guns need a bit more attention to some areas than others

G&G std piston head is shit full stop

Cyma cylinder head is crap, piston is good but o-ring must be replaced

JG on the other hand have pretty good std seals/compression by comparison

 

so if/when you open the box you check this crap to attain best possible efficiency

(which once improved means better energy so more power less strain = better performance)

This is how you attain max/better performance all round than simply drop beefy motor/gears/spring in

 

Not bad numbers, could have got a smidge higher, if you gone nutz with OCD like moi

but sceptical if I could break the 20rps barrier - even going to town on it with 7.4v on motor

industrial wiring, no breaks, perfect seals, mosfet, deans etc... 30c 7.4v etc.....

 

NB: I presume you are using deans on the gun ???

my rambling brought up the connection and unsure as Nuprol's seem to come with Small Tamiya

 

Upgrading to deans will add 1rps more over Small Tamiya

& will be a slight choke point/resistance area if still using & expecting more performance

 

again what gun - as some guns have micro-switches than regular trolley switches

and those guns really do need a mosfet if looking to run 11.1v or more demanding stuff/motors

 

But yeah - hope you got deans on the gun if looking for max efficiency/zest in ya build

(coz tamiya do rob ya a bit in terms of performance)

so get somebody who can solder to swap to deans if you are still on ST connectors

 

EDIT - Ares

Did you have to put a magnet in sector gear for ECU thingy ???

wiring should be OK - is it on deans already ???

if it is ECU - well imho these extra circuit bollox do nick a little bit of juice

the max rof on old school guns is often a whisker higher

as the electric bollox is drawing a little current offset by added features from unit

 

barrel is say 275 aprox, so need a m105-ish spring, maybe a faded m110

(roughly speaking, depends on stroke/port, spacers in piston, spring guide blah x 3)

pdi 150 is more like a m120 so if used a stronger spring that robs you of rps

(at least another round per second, maybe a bit more even)

 

all these things add up in the end, adding to load/efficiency of the gun

and effect its overall performance - but efficiency generally covers it all

(hence efficiency is an important foundation of unlocking gun's performance)

 

again not a bad result all things considered

we are all still learning and looking to squeeze out the absolute max efficiency

(as Tesco says - Every little helps)

Thanks for all that information dude! Very helpful! 

It's a g&p magpul receiver. 

lonex gearbox, 8mm bearings, bearing spring guide, red piston, piston head, sorbo pad, type D cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, Tappet plate etc. 

Pdi 150.

Shs 13:1 with sector chip. 

Jg blue motor.

300mm madbull black python 6.03. Prowin hop.

Jefftron leviathan. 

Dean's.

 

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, took my time shimming, pretty confident that's bang on and air seal is perfect 👌🏻

 

Cylinder is ported and sorbo reduces volume a touch I guess, so the pdi 150 is to bring the fps back up to around 350. I reckon from what you've said I'm probably near the money? 

 

One weird thing I noticed was applying hop increased fps, shouldn't it decrease it? 

 

Oh, bucking is prommy purple and nub is firefly btw

[My First Build!]

If you're interested 🤷‍♂️ 

[My First Build!]

I've just dropped in a brand new and fully charged 7.4 lipo, 1450mah, 30c. Now I'm hitting 16.7 rps, is that what I should be expecting? 

[My First Build!]

Thanks for the info! 

I'm not looking for a high speed build in particular, I was just expecting this to be faster than it turned out and am worried I might have done something wrong. Could I have shimmed too tight for example? 

 

I have a sorbo in there and have removed a tooth and a half from the piston rack, would that not reduce the travel slightly? Thus speeding up the cycle rate slightly? 

 

If I were to change the motor would I not have to reshim the gears to it? 

Okay, update! I've just dropped in a brand new and fully charged 7.4 lipo, 1450mah, 30c. Now I'm hitting 16.7 rps, is that what I should be expecting? 

[My First Build!]

It's a pdi 150 I think

FPS is around 340

[My First Build!]

Thanks for your response DerDer! It's a nuprol 30c 1450mah

The motor is second hand, could that be something to do with it? 

[My First Build!]

Hello peops, so, I've just completed my first build. All seems to be working well but the ROF is a little lower than I expected, I'm getting 14.5 rps from shs 13:1 gears and a jg blue motor on a 7.4 lipo. Does that sound about right or should I be getting more? If so, any ideas what might be wrong/need tweaking? 

Many thanks in advance 👍