My First Build!

[Sitting Duck]

if he has used the SHS bevel with 6 latches on a 13:1 set

 

4.5 rotations of bevel to 1 sector revolution x 6 latches = 27 latches per cycle

4 latches on a 18:1 or 6.25 rotations = 25 latches per cycle

 

if my maths are correct - but ARL might not be fully engaging 101% 

though I suspect the tower on motor is say a thin 9mm or 9.2mm diameter

& the entry hole in box/grip is say 9.65mm - allowing a bit of flap to begin with

 

then the motor is a bit small/thin inside a wide grip so motor has opportunity to slop about

 

when you pull the trigger - it throws itself about resisting against meshing with bevel exactly

until it settles down and behaves, then when cycle completes it lays where the base plate is try to place it

 

some base plates throw angle out a bit differently

and the actual hole where the end bell sits can be snug/loose on different motors too

 

all this adds to slopping about if your motor/grip choice is poorly made allowing the slack to create the slight thud

 

ARL is usually a slightly whirring as it rolls back - or look at piston at rest if box has rear window to see

if creeping backwards often if ARL is ineffective

 

FUCK IT - said I was taking day off

[Lex Dangler]

23 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

start on other gun perhaps...

get two kinda working and you can fine tune the one you are less happy with

 

yes M4 motor grips are a wank at times

some flop about loads & other quite solid & tight

 

bit of advice - try not to fuck about with different grips perhaps

often some of the best or most compatible grips came on the original gun

(not always)

but usually people go back to the stock grip once they find their cool look fake magpul grip is a pile of shit

or the aftermarket base plate is shit fit

 

NOPE NOT GOING TO WRITE A WAR & PEACE NOVEL ON PISTOL GRIPS & MOTOR TOWERS

i'm leaving it there - take a day off it's Sunday Duck

Originally it did have a magpul grip but the motor didn't seem to sit in the plate comfortably and it was impossible to shim the bevel to the pinion as a result, so I got hold of a newer pts grip and it's a much better fit! The gun was originally using the magpul grip somehow but I can't figure out how it could have run efficiently 🤷‍♂️ maybe it wasn't! 

 

Ha, yes take a day off dude! You've given me plenty of information and it's much appreciated! 

8 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

if he has used the SHS bevel with 6 latches on a 13:1 set

 

4.5 rotations of bevel to 1 sector revolution x 6 latches = 27 latches per cycle

4 latches on a 18:1 or 6.25 rotations = 25 latches per cycle

 

if my maths are correct - but ARL might not be fully engaging 101% 

though I suspect the tower on motor is say a thin 9mm or 9.2mm diameter

& the entry hole in box/grip is say 9.65mm - allowing a bit of flap to begin with

 

then the motor is a bit small/thin inside a wide grip so motor has opportunity to slop about

 

when you pull the trigger - it throws itself about resisting against meshing with bevel exactly

until it settles down and behaves, then when cycle completes it lays where the base plate is try to place it

 

some base plates throw angle out a bit differently

and the actual hole where the end bell sits can be snug/loose on different motors too

 

all this adds to slopping about if your motor/grip choice is poorly made allowing the slack to create the slight thud

 

ARL is usually a slightly whirring as it rolls back - or look at piston at rest if box has rear window to see

if creeping backwards often if ARL is ineffective

 

FUCK IT - said I was taking day off

Ha! You couldn't resist! 

Well I think it was more to do with the cut off lever /trigger switch because before mosfet it was fine and after, not. I wondered whether the fet caused a shorter cycle than the trigger switch meaning that the cut off cam was stopping whilst engaging the lever and stopping the trigger trolley from resetting? 

Obviously I've since installed the leviathan so no lever or trigger switch assembly now. 

[Sitting Duck]

23 minutes ago, Lex Dangler said:

Originally it did have a magpul grip but the motor didn't seem to sit in the plate comfortably and it was impossible to shim the bevel to the pinion as a result, so I got hold of a newer pts grip and it's a much better fit! The gun was originally using the magpul grip somehow but I can't figure out how it could have run efficiently 🤷‍♂️ maybe it wasn't! 

 

Ha, yes take a day off dude! You've given me plenty of information and it's much appreciated! 

Ha! You couldn't resist! 

Well I think it was more to do with the cut off lever /trigger switch because before mosfet it was fine and after, not. I wondered whether the fet caused a shorter cycle than the trigger switch meaning that the cut off cam was stopping whilst engaging the lever and stopping the trigger trolley from resetting? 

Obviously I've since installed the leviathan so no lever or trigger switch assembly now. 

 

lemme guess - you install a basic mosfet but one with AB perhaps

that stopped the gun asap with COL slightly still raised

 

the AR latch might not be engaging 101% every time

had it when thick wires running from rear on a G&G slightly rubbed or touched the back

this would cause the ARL to slowly return and rollback (not Asda) would occur

 

or a different example is when doing DSG's the ARL has to grab very very quickly so the tip is reduced

and checked to ensure it is exactly right size/length to grab the bevel latch immediately straight away

 

seigetek stuff...

 

 

daft question - you did install the ARL as some early fancy mosfets with AB

think the BTC suggested that the ARL latch could be removed

yeah that didn't work out too well when people tried it & had to replace the ARL

 

if you hold the grip you will feel the motor thrashing about - it is likely a loose fitting in grip

bits of tape, squidgy rubber to stop the very excessive play in grip/motor might help

bit of a bodge but might work to reduce some thrashing about on semi perhaps

[ak2m4]

@Sitting Duck funny you should mention conductive motor screws, the GP motors I had a while back had nylon screwed, factory said helped reduced short circuits.

[Lex Dangler]

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

lemme guess - you install a basic mosfet but one with AB perhaps

that stopped the gun asap with COL slightly still raised

 

the AR latch might not be engaging 101% every time

had it when thick wires running from rear on a G&G slightly rubbed or touched the back

this would cause the ARL to slowly return and rollback (not Asda) would occur

 

or a different example is when doing DSG's the ARL has to grab very very quickly so the tip is reduced

and checked to ensure it is exactly right size/length to grab the bevel latch immediately straight away

 

seigetek stuff...

 

 

daft question - you did install the ARL as some early fancy mosfets with AB

think the BTC suggested that the ARL latch could be removed

yeah that didn't work out too well when people tried it & had to replace the ARL

 

if you hold the grip you will feel the motor thrashing about - it is likely a loose fitting in grip

bits of tape, squidgy rubber to stop the very excessive play in grip/motor might help

bit of a bodge but might work to reduce some thrashing about on semi perhaps

The fet was the basic jefftron trigger switch replacement without ab, I made a point of getting one without, and yes there was definitely an arl. 

 

I'll have a go shimming the motor with a bit of electrical tape on each side and see if it makes a difference. 

[Sitting Duck]

2 hours ago, ak2m4 said:

@Sitting Duck funny you should mention conductive motor screws, the GP motors I had a while back had nylon screwed, factory said helped reduced short circuits.

 

Think I remember seeing some of them on AliExpress and got me thinking that's daft

ergh actually maybe not after reading the issues with some motor shorts (Systema etc...)

 

Also the wafer thin washers on G&G's often cracked if you tightened them just a whisker too much

so looked at better robust washers and thought - hey them plastic mofo's...

if we replaced just one of them steel bolts with a plastic one - that would limit the short occurring

 

and then remembered your advisory for Titan AB on certain motors blah blah blah

(might be worth investigating a bit for Titan AB mofo's)

plus worth checking the condition of any insulation washers if not replacing one bolt to plastic

(even for non-AB peeps)

 

I think they shouldn't have stopped doing the CORE motors - they were easy access but no short risks

2 tiny screws each side (4 in total) polarity was fucked up on some motors but hey ho if ya knew to check...

 

Some other motors used this style, think I got an SRC neodym with them tiny screws in there

 

it is just them G&G/SHS type that seem to be the norm now, that "could" have a short risk if insulation fails

due to that lockring conducting & shorting out, I mean very common now on most motor types

but some versions might not be assembled so carefully or thin washers like on G&G grey 18k's

[ak2m4]

CORE weren't bad motors, they went bust though, they still owe me money haha.  Neg Luke raves about SRC motors as well.   I did send an email to SRC about buying some of their motors but never heard back.  Chump don't want the sale, Chump don't get the sale 🙂

[Sitting Duck]

not laughing at you get scammed btw, but you quoting Airplane's Jive ass dudes stuff too

[Lex Dangler]

Hello peops, so, it looks like I'm going to have to crack open the gearbox again, it feels like I have a longer trigger pull than I started with and I'm a bit concerned that I didn't fix the grub screw securely enough, the last thing I want is him rattling around inside the gearbox! 

 

Since I'm going back in I figured I would switch the motor from the jg blue to either the asg infinity u22000 or the rocket high torque, I think I'm erring towards the asg as it seems the better motor? I'm also considering changing out the 13:1 gears for 12:1 since I might have to reshim anyway, not that it's likely to make a huge difference. I'll let you know how I get on. 

On another note, regarding batteries, I'm considering grabbing an 11.1 as I've not experimented with one yet, hopefully my gun won't melt in my hands!

Otherwise, if I go for 7.4 would something like this be overkill or a good shout? 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/nuprol-extreme-7-4v-3300mah-30c-crane-lipo-battery

[Sitting Duck]

11 hours ago, Lex Dangler said:

Hello peops, so, it looks like I'm going to have to crack open the gearbox again, it feels like I have a longer trigger pull than I started with and I'm a bit concerned that I didn't fix the grub screw securely enough, the last thing I want is him rattling around inside the gearbox! 

 

Since I'm going back in I figured I would switch the motor from the jg blue to either the asg infinity u22000 or the rocket high torque, I think I'm erring towards the asg as it seems the better motor? I'm also considering changing out the 13:1 gears for 12:1 since I might have to reshim anyway, not that it's likely to make a huge difference. I'll let you know how I get on. 

On another note, regarding batteries, I'm considering grabbing an 11.1 as I've not experimented with one yet, hopefully my gun won't melt in my hands!

Otherwise, if I go for 7.4 would something like this be overkill or a good shout? 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/nuprol-extreme-7-4v-3300mah-30c-crane-lipo-battery

 

just put the shs/rocket in there with 13:1 on 7.4v = golden

or whatever sounds better tbh

 

the ASG 22k = same rpm as JG (in theory) as both are 22tpa (me thinks)

just the ASG is built to higher tolerances & neodym magnets to provide more torque under load

what this means is performance as ROF will be the same (roughly) to what you are getting atm

 

you could just run 11.1v on the JG for a while, will work as you not going too crazy

muliply the 7.4v rof by 1.55 = expected rof on 11.1v with extra cell

(it's a tiny bit more than 50% as the extra cell is boosting the gun already cycling on 2 cells)

 

VERY VERY ROUGH ROF CALCULATION...

 

MOTOR RPM (in 1,000's) divided by ACTUAL GEAR RATIO

(then multiply by 10 = expected ROF on UK 340~350 fps gun)

 

22,000rpm = 22k

22 / 13.5 = 1.62962963 on 7.4v LiPo

1.62962963 x 10 = 16.2962963 (shift decimal point to right)

 

16.2962963 rps on your present build

on 11.1v = 16.2962963 x 1.55 = 25.25925926 rps

 

30k Rocket...

 

30k / 13.5 = 2.22222 or 22.222 rps on 7.4v LiPo

or 34.4444 on 11.1v LiPo

 

as said ROUGH as ol' boots calculation as variation in motors, seals, shimming, amp draw etc...

plus certain LiPo's their capacity and burst rate (20c is a bit lame, 25c or 30c is better for tweak stuff)

wiring/deans and lots of variables will result in slightly varying results but a rough ball park figure

of what you might expect in various builds

[Lex Dangler]

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

just put the shs/rocket in there with 13:1 on 7.4v = golden

or whatever sounds better tbh

 

the ASG 22k = same rpm as JG (in theory) as both are 22tpa (me thinks)

just the ASG is built to higher tolerances & neodym magnets to provide more torque under load

what this means is performance as ROF will be the same (roughly) to what you are getting atm

 

you could just run 11.1v on the JG for a while, will work as you not going too crazy

muliply the 7.4v rof by 1.55 = expected rof on 11.1v with extra cell

(it's a tiny bit more than 50% as the extra cell is boosting the gun already cycling on 2 cells)

 

VERY VERY ROUGH ROF CALCULATION...

 

MOTOR RPM (in 1,000's) divided by ACTUAL GEAR RATIO

(then multiply by 10 = expected ROF on UK 340~350 fps gun)

 

22,000rpm = 22k

22 / 13.5 = 1.62962963 on 7.4v LiPo

1.62962963 x 10 = 16.2962963 (shift decimal point to right)

 

16.2962963 rps on your present build

on 11.1v = 16.2962963 x 1.55 = 25.25925926 rps

 

30k Rocket...

 

30k / 13.5 = 2.22222 or 22.222 rps on 7.4v LiPo

or 34.4444 on 11.1v LiPo

 

as said ROUGH as ol' boots calculation as variation in motors, seals, shimming, amp draw etc...

plus certain LiPo's their capacity and burst rate (20c is a bit lame, 25c or 30c is better for tweak stuff)

wiring/deans and lots of variables will result in slightly varying results but a rough ball park figure

of what you might expect in various builds

Thanks Duck! 

From what I had read the jg is 18k? My reasoning for usg over shs is better trigger response and run time efficiency, would that not be the case?

 

Were I to go shs could I not run onto possible pe/overspin issues? Might they also be problems if I switched to 11.1 regardless of which build I use it with?

1 hour ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

blockquote widget

[Sitting Duck]

35 minutes ago, Lex Dangler said:

Thanks Duck! 

From what I had read the jg is 18k? My reasoning for usg over shs is better trigger response and run time efficiency, would that not be the case?

 

Were I to go shs could I not run onto possible pe/overspin issues? Might they also be problems if I switched to 11.1 regardless of which build I use it with?

blockquote widget

 

JG is 22tpa according to data

a lot of OLD databases have dissappeared

this requires google translate but says a lot about motors n shit...

 

https://pmakiku.pic.fi/blog/57/aeg-moottorit-yms/

 

overspin is combated by Short-Stroking and/or Active Braking/Pre-Cocking

(pro's n con's for all methods)

 

you should be OK on a 300mm barrel up to say 24/25 rps before it starts to double fire

(gun is talking to you), on most std guns with Cut Off Lever etc...

 

The whole issue is to not run the gun TOO FAST - twenties is plenty

get into 20's is nice, go above 25rps and you may need to consider Short-Stroking on a heavier spring

to avoid PME

 

You won't hit PME straight away, but you start to sail closer to it

one little mis-feed/jam and the piston will be slowed on its return and likely rip fuck out of drive chain

You might not smash shit until 30rps - depends on build/spring used etc....

 

I'm just telling you what risks there are at what speeds etc...

and roughly how to plan the build, gears, spring, SS, motor, battery etc...

 

If it was THAT easy then every gun would fire the same - but it is not

a long AK requires a full stroke for volume , so can't really SS it

shorter guns say 300mm can be short stroked

and much shorter 141~233 can be DSG'd if you want to

 

What you seek is something around the twenties - whisker under say 18 to 24 rps

there are many ways to achieve this as I mentioned with gears/motor/battery etc...

 

You could build an exceptional stock gun & run on 11.1v to hit 20rps aprox

Or you use 13:1's & slightly better stock motor like JG 22tpa or G&G Blue "Powerful Motor"

(basically the 25k Ifrit motor but with ferrite magnets not neodym)

to get 18/19rps with good 16awg wiring deans etc....

 

or use a 30k motor to hit say 24rps with 13:1

 

as long as you don't go TOO NUTZ sticking to twenties up to say 24/25 tops you should be OK

that is the limit I tend to go to, a smidge over 20 on 7.4v & happy as a pig in shit basically

[Lex Dangler]

2 hours ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

JG is 22tpa according to data

a lot of OLD databases have dissappeared

this requires google translate but says a lot about motors n shit...

 

https://pmakiku.pic.fi/blog/57/aeg-moottorit-yms/

 

overspin is combated by Short-Stroking and/or Active Braking/Pre-Cocking

(pro's n con's for all methods)

 

you should be OK on a 300mm barrel up to say 24/25 rps before it starts to double fire

(gun is talking to you), on most std guns with Cut Off Lever etc...

 

The whole issue is to not run the gun TOO FAST - twenties is plenty

get into 20's is nice, go above 25rps and you may need to consider Short-Stroking on a heavier spring

to avoid PME

 

You won't hit PME straight away, but you start to sail closer to it

one little mis-feed/jam and the piston will be slowed on its return and likely rip fuck out of drive chain

You might not smash shit until 30rps - depends on build/spring used etc....

 

I'm just telling you what risks there are at what speeds etc...

and roughly how to plan the build, gears, spring, SS, motor, battery etc...

 

If it was THAT easy then every gun would fire the same - but it is not

a long AK requires a full stroke for volume , so can't really SS it

shorter guns say 300mm can be short stroked

and much shorter 141~233 can be DSG'd if you want to

 

What you seek is something around the twenties - whisker under say 18 to 24 rps

there are many ways to achieve this as I mentioned with gears/motor/battery etc...

 

You could build an exceptional stock gun & run on 11.1v to hit 20rps aprox

Or you use 13:1's & slightly better stock motor like JG 22tpa or G&G Blue "Powerful Motor"

(basically the 25k Ifrit motor but with ferrite magnets not neodym)

to get 18/19rps with good 16awg wiring deans etc....

 

or use a 30k motor to hit say 24rps with 13:1

 

as long as you don't go TOO NUTZ sticking to twenties up to say 24/25 tops you should be OK

that is the limit I tend to go to, a smidge over 20 on 7.4v & happy as a pig in shit basically

I was talking about the rpm rather than tpa of the jg blue, 18k as opposed to the 22k of the asg. Both being 22 tpa, would that mean that torque is the same but asg is just a smidge quicker? 

Basically I want to try and achieve as close to a nice round 20rps and thought pairing the 22k asg and 12:1 might get this with 7.4? 

I would also like it to cycle efficiently with no ab or pre cock? Is this likely?

 

I'm planning a higher speed build in another gun using the rocket ht and more sacrificable parts after I've nailed this build. 

[Sitting Duck]

1 hour ago, Lex Dangler said:

I was talking about the rpm rather than tpa of the jg blue, 18k as opposed to the 22k of the asg. Both being 22 tpa, would that mean that torque is the same but asg is just a smidge quicker? 

Basically I want to try and achieve as close to a nice round 20rps and thought pairing the 22k asg and 12:1 might get this with 7.4? 

I would also like it to cycle efficiently with no ab or pre cock? Is this likely?

 

I'm planning a higher speed build in another gun using the rocket ht and more sacrificable parts after I've nailed this build. 

 

The 18k rpm motors tend to be 27 tpa.

22 tpa motors tend to be 22k rpm

 

18/19 tpa tend be about 25k rpm.

16 tpa tend to be about 30k rpm.

 

All of a sudden the 14 tpa motors tend to shoot up to 40k

 

You can't quite lock all the same tpa motors in one speed rating,

coz the swg or single wire gauge of enameled wire used varies

in the windings on the armature etc...

 

Some makes will use a slightly thicker/thinner gauge wire

Plus the strength of the magnets and how precise the motor is built

Higher end motors are soldered onto armature contacts and balanced

Most China motors are simply crimped (after stripping away enamel)

 

Some say the same motor with neodym magnets run slightly slower,

than ferrite on NO LOAD as there is a stronger field,

this may be true - but very slightly 500-1,000rpm on NO LOAD,

under load this disappears as the ferrite motor is susceptible to load more.

So in general mild use the motors is rpm terms perform about the same.

 

When you start pushing it then you can use a GOOD ferrite motor,

if you are on a budget and you shim well and ensure the box runs efficiently.

Though often it is wise to use a good motor if you can run to it...

 

Hence me commenting on all those higher end bits & you used a JG motor.

 

The JG is a decent stock motor, has a bit more zest than say a G&G 18k,

certainly more than an even cheaper stock China motor in cheapo gun.

 

It works, you up to what 17rps maybe on 7.4v 13:1 on a 22tpa

That is about right for the motor as I said...

 

It is about a 22,000 rpm motor, some 22tpa's might get to 24k,

if wound with a slightly thicker wire, some might be 20k with thinner wire.

 

The ASG is about same spec but has more torque due to neodym magnets,

(and higher build quality).

 

The SHS / Rocket is a 16 tpa China motor crimped but with neodym,

to produce 28k to 30k tops.

 

The Neodym motors will have better response from still as the torque is greater,

they start to turn under load almost instantly due to stronger neodym magnets,

that a minor slower start with ferrite magnets.

 

That is not to say ferrites are useless, they may stall if you try to pull m120/130,

definitely stall on 7.4v but on 11.1v it gives the struggling motor a kick up the arse.

 

You can use a ferrite on 7.4v mildly tweaked gun if done right,

as if it is done well will be no more strain than so-so shimmed stock gun.

 

The JG is about same Speed as the ASG, but ASG has a lot more torque/response.

You can use either of those motors you got, choose one that gives the result you seek.

 

Build another gun, try to plan & experiment to attain results you want in 2nd gun,

then with what you learned apply to this first gun to see if you can do the same.

 

The ASG with 12:1 will be just under 20rps,

The SHS with 13:1 will be a little over it...

 

That is how I would pair it up,

If OCD kicks in, plan the ASG 12:1 setup for a gun where you can fit/use say bigger 30c.

(Give it a whisker more zest perhaps).

The SHS 13:1 in a gun with less space to use a 20c 25c 1500mah.

Then they should in "theory" perform a little closer to each other,

leaving you to decide which is the slightly better of the two.

 

But both will be pretty snappy builds & tbh once you nudge 20rps,

A couple of rps is hardly noticeable.

Where as 12rps & you gain 2 extra rps - is more noticeable,

On say 30rps going to 32 or even 33 it's fuck all,

as you get into twenties, the odd round or two is negligible,

it is more a case of how well it runs than if it fires a round or two faster

 

 

 

[Lex Dangler]

20 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

The 18k rpm motors tend to be 27 tpa.

22 tpa motors tend to be 22k rpm

 

18/19 tpa tend be about 25k rpm.

16 tpa tend to be about 30k rpm.

 

All of a sudden the 14 tpa motors tend to shoot up to 40k

 

You can't quite lock all the same tpa motors in one speed rating,

coz the swg or single wire gauge of enameled wire used varies

in the windings on the armature etc...

 

Some makes will use a slightly thicker/thinner gauge wire

Plus the strength of the magnets and how precise the motor is built

Higher end motors are soldered onto armature contacts and balanced

Most China motors are simply crimped (after stripping away enamel)

 

Some say the same motor with neodym magnets run slightly slower,

than ferrite on NO LOAD as there is a stronger field,

this may be true - but very slightly 500-1,000rpm on NO LOAD,

under load this disappears as the ferrite motor is susceptible to load more.

So in general mild use the motors is rpm terms perform about the same.

 

When you start pushing it then you can use a GOOD ferrite motor,

if you are on a budget and you shim well and ensure the box runs efficiently.

Though often it is wise to use a good motor if you can run to it...

 

Hence me commenting on all those higher end bits & you used a JG motor.

 

The JG is a decent stock motor, has a bit more zest than say a G&G 18k,

certainly more than an even cheaper stock China motor in cheapo gun.

 

It works, you up to what 17rps maybe on 7.4v 13:1 on a 22tpa

That is about right for the motor as I said...

 

It is about a 22,000 rpm motor, some 22tpa's might get to 24k,

if wound with a slightly thicker wire, some might be 20k with thinner wire.

 

The ASG is about same spec but has more torque due to neodym magnets,

(and higher build quality).

 

The SHS / Rocket is a 16 tpa China motor crimped but with neodym,

to produce 28k to 30k tops.

 

The Neodym motors will have better response from still as the torque is greater,

they start to turn under load almost instantly due to stronger neodym magnets,

that a minor slower start with ferrite magnets.

 

That is not to say ferrites are useless, they may stall if you try to pull m120/130,

definitely stall on 7.4v but on 11.1v it gives the struggling motor a kick up the arse.

 

You can use a ferrite on 7.4v mildly tweaked gun if done right,

as if it is done well will be no more strain than so-so shimmed stock gun.

 

The JG is about same Speed as the ASG, but ASG has a lot more torque/response.

You can use either of those motors you got, choose one that gives the result you seek.

 

Build another gun, try to plan & experiment to attain results you want in 2nd gun,

then with what you learned apply to this first gun to see if you can do the same.

 

The ASG with 12:1 will be just under 20rps,

The SHS with 13:1 will be a little over it...

 

That is how I would pair it up,

If OCD kicks in, plan the ASG 12:1 setup for a gun where you can fit/use say bigger 30c.

(Give it a whisker more zest perhaps).

The SHS 13:1 in a gun with less space to use a 20c 25c 1500mah.

Then they should in "theory" perform a little closer to each other,

leaving you to decide which is the slightly better of the two.

 

But both will be pretty snappy builds & tbh once you nudge 20rps,

A couple of rps is hardly noticeable.

Where as 12rps & you gain 2 extra rps - is more noticeable,

On say 30rps going to 32 or even 33 it's fuck all,

as you get into twenties, the odd round or two is negligible,

it is more a case of how well it runs than if it fires a round or two faster

 

 

 

Thank you! And as far as the asg combined with 12:1 goes, would that cycle efficiently with no precock or ab required? Or would modifications need to be made? Or is that irrelevant if I'm using a leviathan or titan? 

[Sitting Duck]

17 minutes ago, Lex Dangler said:

Thank you! And as far as the asg combined with 12:1 goes, would that cycle efficiently with no precock or ab required? Or would modifications need to be made? Or is that irrelevant if I'm using a leviathan or titan? 

 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

 

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

 

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

 

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

 

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

[Lex Dangler]

11 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

 

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

 

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

 

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

 

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

11 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

 

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

 

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

 

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

 

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

[Davegolf]

RE trigger response, the torqueier motor is going to get up and go quicker from a semi auto point of view.

All other things kept equal.

 

Matching parts is utter bullshit, use whatever parts combo yields the best fit/tolerance/air seal/performance.

 

11.1V is going to push it I think, you’ll be right on the 25RPS tipping point, and will need AB at that point for sure.

 

If you want a semi only gun go 25RPS for the trigger response.

Make sure to give some fresh air to the motor for heat dissipation if you’re going to run it hard semi spamming.

 

If you are building for field use, stick to 7.4V, the ROF will be much more useful accuracy and ammo conservation wise, plus you won’t be gunning the internals so much.

 

PS if you are buying Gucci guys I find Lonex to be the best of the bunch performance wise for cyl heads, pistons, nozzles etc.

I really like LPE piston heads.

ICS or SHS pistons are great.

Def’ get some Airlab Sorbo in there if you go 11.1V route.

[Lex Dangler]

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

RE trigger response, the torqueier motor is going to get up and go quicker from a semi auto point of view.

All other things kept equal.

 

And that would be the asg? 

 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

Matching parts is utter bullshit, use whatever parts combo yields the best fit/tolerance/air seal/performance.

 

I did wonder! That's good to know, thank you 👍 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

11.1V is going to push it I think, you’ll be right on the 25RPS tipping point, and will need AB at that point for sure.

 

If you want a semi only gun go 25RPS for the trigger response.

Make sure to give some fresh air to the motor for heat dissipation if you’re going to run it hard semi spamming.

 

If you are building for field use, stick to 7.4V, the ROF will be much more useful accuracy and ammo conservation wise, plus you won’t be gunning the internals so much.

 

Yeah, I think I might save playing with 11.1 for a later date. I'm thinking of getting hold of the biggest 7.4 30c that I can fit in the stock, I think 3300mah and running with the 12:1s to achieve the trigger response and also get decent rof for when required, also so I don't have to use any AB or precocking hopefully🤞I'd rather not over work the motor or leave the spring compressed when I'm not using it. 

 

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

PS if you are buying Gucci guys I find Lonex to be the best of the bunch performance wise for cyl heads, pistons, nozzles etc.

I really like LPE piston heads.

ICS or SHS pistons are great.

Def’ get some Airlab Sorbo in there if you go 11.1V route.

Noted! Thank you 👍 

What are the other shs bits like if I was going to get a full set? 

 

And gearbox wise, I have a g&p I was going to use for the 2nd build, will that be decent enough? 

[Davegolf]

Yeh that will be a very perky battery!

 

SHS gears, tappet plates etc are fine.

Ive used the above parts so many times with excellent results I don’t use much in the way of SHS or ZCI any more.

 

ICS Orange and Retro Arms are great mid range POM pistons.

Im not a fan of full steel pistons, I like at least a 1/3 soft teeth so that if SHTF the damage is limited to a new piston and a gearbox clean out... as opposed to trashed gears, bearings and/or worse.

 

Pretty much any gearbox shell can be made good, that’s down to the tech.

[Lex Dangler]

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

Yeh that will be a very perky battery!

 

SHS gears, tappet plates etc are fine.

Ive used the above parts so many times with excellent results I don’t use much in the way of SHS or ZCI any more.

 

ICS Orange and Retro Arms are great mid range POM pistons.

Im not a fan of full steel pistons, I like at least a 1/3 soft teeth so that if SHTF the damage is limited to a new piston and a gearbox clean out... as opposed to trashed gears, bearings and/or worse.

 

Pretty much any gearbox shell can be made good, that’s down to the tech.

Cool, thank you 👍 I'll have a look into those parts, I was hoping not to have to shell out on any more but I suppose just a few tiny parts won't hurt 🤷‍♂️

 

I can't find lonex stuff in stock anywhere! 🤷‍♂️ 

[Davegolf]

Nothing is entirely necessary, it’s whatever your driven to do.

 

There are plenty of airsofters that would happily build gearboxes from the cheapest parts and get great results, and then there’s the opposite end of the spectrum.

A constant battle of opinions lol!

 

 

[Lex Dangler]

That's a fair point! I'll use what parts I have left to complete the second build since it will be my backup anyway and see how it goes! Maybe I should have done it the other way round and practiced on the secondary before the primary 🤷‍♂️

I think I've done a pretty good job though considering 😎

I guess I won't know for sure until I take it for a proper spin though! I'm looking forward to that! I've not actually skirmished for years! 

[Lex Dangler]

Good afternoon fabulous people! 

So, I have just finished finished tweaking my gun, I changed out the jg blue for the usg 22000 and shs 13:1 for shs 12:1, I was expecting a very slight increase in rof however it's actually dropped from around 17 to 13rps!? I have carefully reshimmed, everything else is as it was, no aeo correction was needed, im using a decent spec 7.4. My mosfet is telling me the amp draw on semi is around 22 and auto around 16 which seems okay? I can't for the life of me figure out what might have gone wrong. Might anyone have any ideas? 

[Davegolf]

Is the battery voltage low compared to before?

Assuming the spring and FPS is identical to before?

Have you actually counted your gear set teeth and calculated the 'actual' ratios?

Are the spur and sector mismatched to a bevel etc? (giving you an actually different ratio)