Motor only works when I hit it

[SCAR_Jester]

Hi all,

 

A very odd one.. good luck.

 

ZCI HT + replaced brushes 

Tomtac 13:1 gears (ss 2 teeth)

7.4v / 11.1v

 

My motor has an issue in that it randomly cuts out.

 

 First I tested the setup by removing the mosfet and wiring directly to the motor.

    Nothing.

    2 tests, 1 inside, 1 outside

    *hits grip / exposed motor*

    BANG / ZIP

 

From that test I now know the mosfet is not the issue.

i try with a SHS HT, works fine outside the gun, however once inside stopped firing after 15 shots on semi on both 7.4v and 11.1v.

Note that the battery was warm and slightly swollen.

 

From that I assumed that the SHS HT works fine, but then mosfet’s temperature fuse tripped.

 

 

 

Has anyone got any clue as to how I can fix the ZCI or should just get a new one?

 

Trying to do this before Sunday 

[Iceni]

Quote

 First I tested the setup by removing the mosfet and wiring directly to the motor.

    Nothing.

i try with a SHS HT, works fine outside the gun, however once inside stopped firing

 

Check the continuity of the motor connectors, I suspect you have one that has a bad connection to the wire. It may require picking up a new crimp connector. If you have a multimeter you can use it in diode mode, or resistance to check continuity.

With the hand grip off the wire will be at a different angle and may regain continuity. If the insulation is intact this can often be the case. This style of poor connection increases resistance of the circuit, hence the mosfet auto temp protect kicked in.



 

[SCAR_Jester]

5 hours ago, Iceni said:

 

Check the continuity of the motor connectors, I suspect you have one that has a bad connection to the wire. It may require picking up a new crimp connector. If you have a multimeter you can use it in diode mode, or resistance to check continuity.

With the hand grip off the wire will be at a different angle and may regain continuity. If the insulation is intact this can often be the case. This style of poor connection increases resistance of the circuit, hence the mosfet auto temp protect kicked in.



 

I had tested with the SHS motor outside the grip and the crimp “just” touching the connector and it still worked if this changes your thoughts.

 

I am unfimiliar with continuity, could you explain further your ideas please?

 

Also a side note, when all wires are securely in place on the motor unable to move, and to get it to work I must hit/tap the motor, how would this be a wire issue?

Thanks

[Sitting Duck]

Sounds like a w@nky/burnt winding on the armature (happens)

Had a used SHS one (fleabay spares/repair with another JG blue neo)

Worked 3 or 4 times out of 5 but just now n then - zilch

(even out of gun, turn pinion 1 click - vroooom off we go again)

 

changed arm to another aramture (short one), reassembled - perfect

 

could be some crap on commutator perhaps, clean up with fiberglass pen (used in soldering)

brush out out the comm with a toothbrush paying close attention to the breaks between 3 sections of comm

 

try that perhaps or find an old stock motor you suspect is 22tpa & rebuild

not a daft 28tpa that some grey G&G, Cyma or Chaoli motors are

19 to 22tpa like VFC, JG, ICS motors or perhaps a G&P but don't quote me on tpa

 

 

HOLD UP - got ahead of myself there....

 

just read same stuff happens on two motors - hang on a sec....

[Sitting Duck]

7 hours ago, Corky2110 said:

From that test I now know the mosfet is not the issue.

i try with a SHS HT, works fine outside the gun, however once inside stopped firing after 15 shots on semi on both 7.4v and 11.1v.

Note that the battery was warm and slightly swollen.

 

My other suggestions based on the above quote....

 

usual shimming causing da heat - test amps, bevel too low - normal answer

dodgy wire like a weak motor connector almost breaking like a fuse

(I add solder to elbow - hold the bastid upright coz if solder runs to connector it never fits motor)

 

Has either motor been stripped down ???

There MUST be a plastic insulation washer on say the SHS or G&G type motors

they do not have tabs and have a mount that goes in/turns locks into position

then end bell screws into this mount with I think m2 or m2.5 tiny screw/bolts

However - that mount conducts so if you drop the plastic washers you have a circuit + & -

(not wise to drop insulation washers or used damaged washers)

 

7 hours ago, Corky2110 said:

ZCI HT + replaced brushes

 

This could point to a dirty comm, clean it up and make sure you brush out the breaks

bit of crap carbon bridging the breaks will mess up stuff

 

Other stabs.....

 

check motor plate for any possible risk of shorts, if in doubt file a smidge and insulate

 

check wiring as been said

 

check amps, with ZCI HT 22 tpa 13:1 and your setup about 15-16 amps tops

hitting 18amps no matter on 7.4v or 11.1v - doesn't really change, shimming is crap

 

with SHS HT 16-18tpa about 17amp - if you are over 20a on SHS or RA HT shimming is crap imho

[SCAR_Jester]

19 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

Sounds like a w@nky/burnt winding on the armature (happens)

Had a used SHS one (fleabay spares/repair with another JG blue neo)

Worked 3 or 4 times out of 5 but just now n then - zilch

(even out of gun, turn pinion 1 click - vroooom off we go again)

 

changed arm to another aramture (short one), reassembled - perfect

 

could be some crap on commutator perhaps, clean up with fiberglass pen (used in soldering)

brush out out the comm with a toothbrush paying close attention to the breaks between 3 sections of comm

 

try that perhaps or find an old stock motor you suspect is 22tpa & rebuild

not a daft 28tpa that some grey G&G, Cyma or Chaoli motors are

19 to 22tpa like VFC, JG, ICS motors or perhaps a G&P but don't quote me on tpa

 

 

HOLD UP - got ahead of myself there....

 

just read same stuff happens on two motors - hang on a sec....

Replaced what looked like worn brushes on the ZCI, also I did check for a broken connection on the armatures to no avail (no visible issues), I can replicate this failure on all 3 sections, so I'm stumped there.
 

Need to check the current but I know that on 330fps and it's shimmed well, the heat is most likely me not having the motor high enough pressed in (same as having the bevel too low but I will check this).

 

I have only stripped down the ZCI, to check if anything needs cleaned (I will clean but it doesn't need it), SHS is untouched.

 

I will replace the spade connectors, as like @Iceni said, this connection to the wire could be loose.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any 22tpa motors kicking about, and I doubt I can source one for the weekend... 

[Sitting Duck]

Sounds like a break perhaps in motor connectors

but SHS kinda works but other issues etc....

 

On hindsight thought - my jamming mid-cap / strip gun to bits to fix feeding issue......

 

before you go nutz, how about testing ZCI in another gun ???

 

Think test motor in other gun might be a wise consideration to help narrow down stuff

sure you tried SHS but testing zci in other nicey gun will confirm if zci is issue or gun/wiring/connector

 

Just trying to quickly narrow it down accurately without increased stress both on gun and owner

 

On the silly side - stick motor in a blowback gun so it keeps shaking/hitting the motor for you

Or shake gun simulating recoil after each shot - better than the clickety clackety effect

Job done - no more stalling

[SCAR_Jester]

7 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

Sounds like a break perhaps in motor connectors

but SHS kinda works but other issues etc....

 

On hindsight thought - my jamming mid-cap / strip gun to bits to fix feeding issue......

 

before you go nutz, how about testing ZCI in another gun ???

 

Think test motor in other gun might be a wise consideration to help narrow down stuff

sure you tried SHS but testing zci in other nicey gun will confirm if zci is issue or gun/wiring/connector

 

Just trying to quickly narrow it down accurately without increased stress both on gun and owner

 

On the silly side - stick motor in a blowback gun so it keeps shaking/hitting the motor for you

Or shake gun simulating recoil after each shot - better than the clickety clackety effect

Job done - no more stalling

The recoil is an interesting idea haha, though I always feared that's what busted it first, I need to ass some sort of spacer to stop it spinning in the grip..

 

I will be trying the ZCI in my ICS split tonight so I should have a good idea of what works and what doesn't!

 

I'll update if I need more info or run into issues.

 

Thanks

[Sitting Duck]

36 minutes ago, Corky2110 said:

The recoil is an interesting idea haha, though I always feared that's what busted it first, I need to ass some sort of spacer to stop it spinning in the grip..

 

I will be trying the ZCI in my ICS split tonight so I should have a good idea of what works and what doesn't!

 

I'll update if I need more info or run into issues.

 

Thanks

 

bastid grips and motors - you saying spinning pointing to loose, too loose motor in grip

all this crap throws motor angle out if allowed to flail around a bit

 

I've stopped pi$$balling about changing stuff like std grips to clone magpuls n stuff

very often cheapo grips throw motor angle out all over the f**king place....

Some grips have loads of side to side movement on box, a lovely right hand only grip really comfy one....

 

 

f*ck me it was as loose as >>> insert smutty remark <<<, well loose side to side on box

So loose, shimming, motor meshing pinion to bevel could never be constant testing/fitting each time

tried gluing bits of thin plastic to outside of gearbox to take out slack but in the end I chucked grip

Nowadays I mostly stick with std grip if it just works and angle/fit etc..., is all OK

G26 G27 clones can be a joke too, needing loads of filing coz they meet receiver 2mm before gearbox

 

Nah I'm done with worrying about a grip's looks, quite often the stock M4 grip works very well

 

I got a ICS sportsline in bits atm, blimey the motor entry into lower box....

The frigging grip's hole into box is a bit oval - not egg shaped but deffo not 101% true circle

it allowed the motor shaft/pinion to wobble a bit too much and the angle was mostly out too

So I've used a piece of rubber on one side near top of motor to take up most slack

and push/correct angle to what I feel is in line with bevel's axle more....

 

I try to look and make sure the motor shaft is in line with grip's lugs/guides 

and also on box slots as well as bevel's axle etc....

Not got that fancy alignment tool but it is fairly accurate way of checking/improving a $hite angle

NB - wise thing to cut a small bit of wire(s) similar to what you are using and have that in grip test

simulating exactly how motor will sit when all reassembled etc....

 

On the ICS motor I have placed a thin 1mm bit of hard rubber atm, one side near top of motor

glued then taped with aluminium tape, (bit of heat resistant stuff)

to hopefully hold it in place long term, though in testing it seemed OK wedging strip

But angle is much better on oval entry, taken out most of the pinion shaft wobble and fingers crossed less shrilly 

well a pic/clip says a 1,000 duck essays

 

Loads of bits added on - a bit nutz perhaps, but was taking slack out all around I guess

Dunno how stuff might hold up on a hot running motor but something needs a tweak suppose

(I'd consider a better grip if this is that sloppy n loose like a tarts...........)

 

Motor should be a tiny tiny bit loose to allow for adjustment but without the flailing about some have

 

 

 

[SCAR_Jester]

13 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

bastid grips and motors - you saying spinning pointing to loose, too loose motor in grip

 

Weirdly, the shaft can't move around but it's just the can that spins and smacks the grip.

See I like the idea of a small amount of metal tape or wire stuck on, foam and plastic just sounds like it could help insulate it.. not good.

[Hangtight]

I use thin aluminium shims epoxied to the motor or the inside of the grip to stop the motor flapping around. Also use a thin brass tube as a shim over the motor tower to loose any slop to the hole in the grip. Grips themselves get trimmed so they only touch the gearbox, not the receiver.

[Hangtight]

The lengths we go to....

 

 

 

 

[SCAR_Jester]

1 minute ago, Hangtight said:

The lengths we go to....

 

Looks good! I might copy that idea, but likely with just metal tape.

 

[Sitting Duck]

That's the bloody grip that was swimming & rattling around son's 416 D-Boys gearbox....

 

Box might have been say 18.2mm wide

but the grip was over 20mm - well sloppy side to side

 

was swimming about, had thin bits of plastic glued on box

(0.7mm thick that sim cards punch out from)

still a little wobble but a big improvement

 

One of the threads started to strip, replaced with larger screw

Then eventually the 7mm all bearings gave out and that's it

ripped out bearings and changed grip when I reshimmed it on 7mm bushings

 

I should have used bushings and kept std grip but was comfy and had some room

coz I was using 3mm thick silicone wire in there

 

My own D-Boys 416/614/801/8001 I had already decided not to use that style grip

So had chosen a more regular mofo grip like used on Hef's gun....

 

 

Chunky mofo grip, but just worked great room, angle only a bit of filing needing

not for people with small hands but it just all worked great - shame I only got a few of them

probably lucky but it just all meshed and worked great, low shrill, low amps

(it has a sound hog but there was virtually no shrill with it off)

[Iceni]

14 hours ago, Corky2110 said:

I am unfimiliar with continuity, could you explain further your ideas please?

Continuity is the descriptive term used to describe a circuit that functions correctly, without unexpected breaks or shorts.

A loss of continuity generally means the circuit fails to function, This could be caused by any part of the circuit, Wires, Switches, Electronic components.

When you test continuity you can do it in stages.

Whole circuit, Part circuit, Individual component or wire. Often you use a process of elimination. Taking the biggest steps first. So test whole circuit, Test the +wire to motor, Test the -wire to mosfet, Test the -wire mosfet to motor, Test the trigger circuit.

Since the + (red) cable on a gearbox is unbroken between the motor and battery you can test the crimp terminal by using the mosfet/battery + connection using a multimeter in diode or resistance (ohms) mode. Wiggle the terminal if there is a problem the meter will read no circuit at certain angles.

The - (black) terminal is a little harder as it is broken at the mosfet (the mosfet acts as a switch on the - wire). So you will need to put the probe on the "- to motor" side of the mosfet, and the motor crimp connection, Do the wiggle and see if it reads a problem.

You can not test the - Battery connection to the crimp connector as there should be no circuit unless the gate is opened by connecting the trigger when the unit has power.

 

[SCAR_Jester]

Update, for some unknown reason, when testing various things to see why the motor was not working correctly it began to fail more and more!

Turns out one of the 3 connections on the armature wasn't dead YET but on it's way out the whole time, so it occasionally worked and would do when it was thumped too.

Now it only works when I spin the pinion to the live connections.

 

Is there anyway to bring it back form the dead?

If not, is there anyway to get a new 22tpa armature as the ZCI motor is hard to get in stock.

 

 

Thanks

[ImTriggerHappy]

Just buy an ASG CNC Ultimate

[SCAR_Jester]

27 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Just buy an ASG CNC Ultimate

Lil pricey, and 28tpa, I take it on an m110 (might be m105 rating) 13:1 short stroked 2 teeth on 11.1v, it will work fine? 

Just want to know it's not too much power for a little spring.

 

Cheers

 

 

[EDIT]

I did not realise they had a 22000 motor, that should be about 22 TPA, so which would be better - 22TPA or 28TPA?

[ImTriggerHappy]

On that build I would use the 30k.

[Sitting Duck]

13:1's & 30k would be screaming a bit on 11.1v

perfect on 7.4v imho if shimmed perfectly

but 11.1v & 13:1's might be a bit too quick at over 30rps

(UK guns keep at about 25rps tops unless silly more involved stuff)

 

Spec wise you would want the 22,000rpm one I think is more like a 22tpa

with neodym magnets the motor runs a smidge slower than ferrite but more grunt

a 28tpa is slow as fuck & where franky motors start - deffo 11.1v & 13:1's

 

If you are stuck hunt around what motors you got JG or ICS are about 22tpa

but might be O pinions, well ICS deffo are O pinions so need motor puller

 

I got some cyma's 27/28tpa and a chaoli one still intact with D pinions if you want

can send them complete or just start to open them, bend tabs, remove D pinion

Or send the arms or complete motors or whatever....

 

You run on 11.1v I'm guessing so 22tpa to 28tpa is fine (18k to 22k) aprox very low amps

Me tend to run on 7.4v with 16tpa to about 19tpa (25k to 30k) aprox low to moderate amps

(end of day best builds draw the least amps if everything is right/perfect) 

 

See what old stock motors you got lying around

motors don't ever die, the arms & brushes just eventually go

the cans & magnets can nearly always be reused if you can be arsed

though often most lame motors are 27/28tpa like crappy G&G grey 18k but O pinion

 

you might have to bite the bullet and buy a new motor

but your old one can be re-used to make a nice torquey one no matter what

[SCAR_Jester]

2 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

On that build I would use the 30k.

I'm guessing the TPA would be about 16-18 so it would be a good option, however I recently tried an SHS HT (not sure which gen), and on a 7.4v it caused the battery to heat up slightly and swell (only somewhat).
Along with shorting the temperature fuse on the mosfet (I assume) so it would work intermittently and the back end towards the battery would be warm.

 

On 11.1v it didn't seem to have any issues but was noticeably quicker and due to the lower torque of the motor, would not stop as fast so it was able to spin a bit too far and double shot.

 

To run your suggested motor I need to try and remove a lot of resistance (already removed a fair bit so could be hard) to use the 7.4v

Or run an active braking mosfet.

 

Alternatively I use the higher rated TPA motors as I do not need speed and when I do use full auto, I don't care for RoF in the slightest.

2 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

you might have to bite the bullet and buy a new motor

but your old one can be re-used to make a nice torquey one no matter what

Thanks for the round up of motors there,

And yes I will most likely be buying a new motor as I think if I remember a while back I've actually stripped the set screw on the pinion but put lock tight in.. so I think unless I get my dremel out it's a goner at the end, would be easier starting again and saving the magnets for another day.

 

So I'm thinking it's between ZCI HT and ASG 22K, unless you have cheaper alternatives, I don't mind if the motor is higher than 22TPA as I won't be using full auto and as long as it's above ~20TPA to stop overspin, I'm happy.

[Hangtight]

If you're only using semi auto then the 16TPA will get a bit warm and stress the battery. Really nice combination with 13:1 gears on 7.4v for a full auto/occasional semi gun though. 22TPA is your best choice. Lower start up current so less battery stress with rapid semi auto use.

[SCAR_Jester]

7 minutes ago, Hangtight said:

If you're only using semi auto then the 16TPA will get a bit warm and stress the battery. Really nice combination with 13:1 gears on 7.4v for a full auto/occasional semi gun though. 22TPA is your best choice. Lower start up current so less battery stress with rapid semi auto use.

So no need to go mental with a 28tpa+?
Also any advantage for ZCI vs ASG?

Feeling lazy as the gun is already shimmed within good tolerance for another ZCI...

[Sitting Duck]

22 minutes ago, Corky2110 said:

So I'm thinking it's between ZCI HT and ASG 22K, unless you have cheaper alternatives, I don't mind if the motor is higher than 22TPA as I won't be using full auto and as long as it's above ~20TPA to stop overspin, I'm happy.

 

can send you two or three D type motor/arms just pay postage (fiver)

 

cyma is 27/28 tpa - unwound one but wire broke so hacked the wires and counted

 

chaoli likely 28tpa but crap varies - could be 28 or even 32

[ImTriggerHappy]

The ASG 30K won't stress the battery on that build and will give you a good middle ground between ROF and trigger response. You would be better using a AAB fet with the 11.1v battery.

 

I tend to use that motor for everything lately.