airsoft sites with vehicles and other unusual things

[NickM]

I really like games with more realism but for me its a fitness issue, I cant tab 20 miles for a 10 min firefight. You can play a more realistic game from within a normal weekend skirmish but its not easy especially when some idiot ruins it by ignoring any kind of tactics. EAG Worthing have 12,16 and 24 hour games that I find include some great mental challenges as well as the odd blat fest and some good use of tactics. They aren't hardcore milsim, there are ammo limits and the bleedout times/regen rules mean you really think twice about exposing yourself. There is a bit of a rank structure, each team has an IC and 2IC drawn from the most experienced players at the site the rest of you are grunts but they aren't strict about it, its more like the way SF are organised you can each get a say and the best plan wins.

 

For me there is definitely a market for more challenging (not physical necessarily more mental/tactics) or for a weekend skirmish site that encourages teamwork and tactics. Most of the sites I know of you are playing very similar games in very similar ways. Capture the fort, collect an object etc. It gets a little samey, I'd love to have a go somewhere that allows a bit of creativity as well. Its why I've taken to playing loads of different sites. So far I've played 7 in 18 months and I average 1 game a month.

[Baz JJ]

the site I play at tried a game where there was a bomb and a 12 year old bomb maker. You had to get the bomb and find the bomb maker.

They tried their best, but it was complete chaos and the bombmaker got lost.

 

Very difficult with 130 players and everybody doing their own thing.

 

If you have 130 players paying £20 each for their day, thats £2600 in revenue.

 

If you offer 24 (8 squads) players a "special forces" role, they would need to pay more, whilst the other players end up in a defending role at a reduced cost. They know they are probably going to get beaten because of the pre-plannng and tactics, but they can put up a good fight. After all, in skirmish defences, you know you are going to get over run in the end.

 

Surely, even in bonafide reenactments like the WW2 stuff, one side is going to get thrashed - its all pre agreed isn't it ?

 

As long as everybody gets the chance to win sometime, its all just fun.

[Baz JJ]

EAG Worthing seems to offer the kind of thing we are talking about.

 

Sounds ideal.

 

Do I hear a but ?

 

What could be bettered there ?

 

is it just that we need more of these type of laid back milsims around the country ?

 

 

I really like games with more realism but for me its a fitness issue, I cant tab 20 miles for a 10 min firefight. You can play a more realistic game from within a normal weekend skirmish but its not easy especially when some idiot ruins it by ignoring any kind of tactics. EAG Worthing have 12,16 and 24 hour games that I find include some great mental challenges as well as the odd blat fest and some good use of tactics. They aren't hardcore milsim, there are ammo limits and the bleedout times/regen rules mean you really think twice about exposing yourself. There is a bit of a rank structure, each team has an IC and 2IC drawn from the most experienced players at the site the rest of you are grunts but they aren't strict about it, its more like the way SF are organised you can each get a say and the best plan wins.

 

For me there is definitely a market for more challenging (not physical necessarily more mental/tactics) or for a weekend skirmish site that encourages teamwork and tactics. Most of the sites I know of you are playing very similar games in very similar ways. Capture the fort, collect an object etc. It gets a little samey, I'd love to have a go somewhere that allows a bit of creativity as well. Its why I've taken to playing loads of different sites. So far I've played 7 in 18 months and I average 1 game a month.

[Baz JJ]

Sorry Im dragging the OP off topic so have started a new topic about themes.

[Ian_Gere]

Yes I agree. I find some of these milsim groups a little sinister with talk of ranks and selection processes.

On the other hand, setting 50 people blasting away at another 50 across the wood gets a little boring after a while.

 

There has to be some middle ground.

 

At the end of the day, one of the thrills, much like warfare computer games has got to be using tactics and planning to succeed.

 

The thrill is in a successful mission. I'm sure we've all felt the buzz of working through a scenario in Battlefield or COD and getting back to the exfil helicopter.

 

There has to be away of recreating this in Airsoft without it costing a fortune. Even if the teams take a turn in getting the good feeling ?

Nail on the head, mate. There have been a few times when I've been part of a small group who acted in a manner coordinated enough to deserve being called a squad and it is great, because it is remarkably effective against disorganised opposition. The first time I was so chuffed with my little self that I promoted myself to lance corporal (because I led a 1 man 3 boy fireteam to a successful fort storming under heavy fire - even though I got hit before i could get in there myself ho hum shot in the side of the bum by a sharpshooter at a ridiculous angle - great shot - bastard! Don't care, loved every moment of it )

 

I don't play computer games - x-box, PS3, etc - the necessity to do so to fully engage in a peer group came after the stage in my life where the security of belonging was more important than the actual results of any energy expended and I just can't be arsed to get good at it these days. I did have a copy of Myst 3 over a decade ago and i got right into that, but i lent it to somebody and it got stolen when his gaff got done over. I was more interested in the, shall we say "promotional lend-lease ware", which I used to create and edit sound, than the gamez discs doing the rounds.

you'd think so, but most commercial helicopters certainly don't have any kind of filter on their engines and an awful lot of military ones don't either. Adding filters reduces airflow which in turn reduces engine efficiency and power output. Both are extremely bad for helicopters!

 

Also, BB wise it wouldn't surprise me, deployment in 2011 we changed 3 engines on our Lynx because it had been FODed by wood chippings, a cable tie and some wire. A hail of BBs would cause similar damage I expect!

 

All hypothetical of course, anyone who shoots at an aircraft in flight is a massive c*nt.

Hmmm... are you a fitter, James? Some kind of aircraftsman? Because if so we have a fortune to make - there's energy in the motion of air passing into an intake and some of it goes into causing the inlet shroud and ducting to expand ever so slightly as the air is compressed - which means that there is energy spare which could be put to use. I have a couple of different ideas for self cleaning filters off the top of my head, a bit of tweaking and dream meets reality tests and i feel confident something useful will become apparent.

 

Unless some bugger has done it before, of course. It must be a problem which thousands of qualified engineers and designers have come up against, but you never know, even as drug-addled as I am, I may have had a moment of genius...

[jcheeseright]

Hmmm... are you a fitter, James? Some kind of aircraftsman? Because if so we have a fortune to make - there's energy in the motion of air passing into an intake and some of it goes into causing the inlet shroud and ducting to expand ever so slightly as the air is compressed - which means that there is energy spare which could be put to use. I have a couple of different ideas for self cleaning filters off the top of my head, a bit of tweaking and dream meets reality tests and i feel confident something useful will become apparent.

 

Unless some bugger has done it before, of course. It must be a problem which thousands of qualified engineers and designers have come up against, but you never know, even as drug-addled as I am, I may have had a moment of genius...

Aircraft Controller, but working as a small flight on board a ship whenever the helicopter breaks (which is a LOT) it's all hands in to wank off the elephant. Through doing relatively simple maintenance tasks I've taken apart pretty much every single bit of a Lynx (under proper qualified supervision of course... ahem).

 

It has already been done I'm afraid, the newer rolls royce engines are supposedly FOD free, not 100% sure on the science behind it but everything gets kicked into some kind of gap around the intake and only air can get in! Seems to work, as far as I know none of the Wildcats (new version of the Lynx, very angular looking, not much more actual capability) have had an engine FODed yet which is pretty crazy considering the amount of flying hours they've racked up.

[Ian_Gere]

Makes sense to me - my first idea involves 2 rotating cones like turbo fans one behind the other and going in opposite directions. The air would be sent into the 1st through baffles to create a vortex opposite to the direction of the first's spin so any bits of crap would bounce off the rounded blunt blades and also slide down and out, under centrifugal force. The inner cone would have a finer gap between the blades... the crap would go into a space surrounding the intake and the vibration would make it move down and out somewhere

 

It would be sort of like a pair of Dyson's working back to front so that the crap was expelled from the vortex rather than kept within it.

[Baz JJ]

Have just seen these.

 

Obviously real stuff and therefore expensive but this is what the pro's use

 

http://www.missionreadyequipment.com/nemo-fas-swim-ar

 

 

 

 

Good shout on the dry bag, double bagging would definitely be the way forward, and you are right truthfully it would be much better giving the kit to a marshal or cashing it somewhere before hand. I'd also give a SEAL type swimming insertion a go as well, but it'd have to be night time and light reflecting on the surface of the water would be a concern.

 

[Ian_Gere]

$200 for a semi-disposable plastic bag sounds a bit different to "Nemo FAS™(Full-Action, Sealed™) Swim AR" and "Mission Ready Equipment". I'll leave that there.

 

The obvious issue for us is that electricity and water do not mix, right? Well actually, at the voltages we're using, you could completely immerse an AEG in the sea and the degree to which 'short circuit' would affect the motor performance would not render it anything like unusable. It's also highly unlikely that any water, even brine, could cause corrosion to affect the electrical components, since they are not made from unalloyed steel.

 

That is not necessarily the case for the rest of an AEG though, particularly CNC steel gears and good quality receivers. Of course the simple answer is to adopt the same practice as in the RS world and oil the bloody things after each time we clean them.

 

The main issue that a tactical plasy bag would protect against is that water does not compress, which could well cause something to fail if we fired a previously immersed AEG without first having drained any water from the cylinder, hop unit, and barrel. I'll grant that, if someone had to cross water in an open boat to get to a skirmish day, then wrapping all his/her guns in plastic bags would be a good idea, and if this was something which they did regularly then a reusable bag would make sense.

 

I put it to you, my friends, that we could all do a passable job with some plastic tarp and glue, but we could get a head start by buying surplus British Army old style PVC waterproofs and cutting a leg to the right length.

[Baz JJ]

its a real tactical bag for special ops and the like and the price tag reflects that. I talked to Nick M earlier about an Airsoft scenario as he is a keen diver and we found a much cheaper product back in this thread. I just saw this bag and thought I would post it up out of interest.

 

Although my AEG might still work after a salt water dunking, I don't think I would expose it to the corrosion. A real weapon is probably easier to deep strip, clean and oil.

[Baz JJ]

Id be interested if the sights work under water ?

 

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=402204879880406&set=a.402204709880423.1073741962.102832779817619&type=3&theater

[jcheeseright]

Yeah, the dot will be where it should be, the bullet isn't likely to go there though, unless it's a very short distance away.

[Baz JJ]

but the refractive index is different in water ?

 

I doubt they would be aiming through optical sights in water. The whole point of swimmer insertions is stealth and surprise.

[jcheeseright]

an aimpoint doesn't rely on refraction to work, it creates the illusion of a projected aiming point using a reflective piece of glass which is entirely self contained. where the dot points is where the bullet goes. If you're looking from water into air then yeah it'll be off, but then so are your eyes, so aiming becomes entirely moot!

[NickM]

Yeah but just like a straw in a drink "bending" the light from what you are looking at changes direction as it enters the mask then your eye, you get used to it but I doubt it would be good enough to take aimed shots at any kind of distance.

 

The bigger issue with it is the distance the projectile travels. The faster it is going the more resistance it will encounter, so it is doubtful anything fired from a standard firearm would travel more than a foot or 2. Try the Mythbusters video about swimming away from bullets, a 50cal only travelled through a few feet of water and was not lethal. In fact most of them the copper jacket peeled away from lead.

 

Also the percussive force on your ear drums would be immense and ear plugs would be pointless as the vibrations would travel through you. The vibrations from a blast underwater are especially important to understand. We had a section on my commercial diving course explaining the effects of blasts and percussion waves underwater on the human body. The wave travels through the tissues fine until it reaches a gas-water interface where it causes huge amounts of damage. See the link for a reported case.

 

http://www.wateroperations.com/sortie/issue2/article12.htm

 

Overall I'd say its a cool photo but would probably be unrealistic in the real world, although no reason they couldn't fire on the surface. Would be interesting to see someone try to aim and deal with the recoil on the surface.

[Baz JJ]

Agreed. Real Aimpoint sights are waterproof down to about 80 feet and many assault rifles will fire under water - these look like G36 but I think the sighting and problems with percussion etc make it impractical, as you say.

 

Ive seen swimmers use floating drybags as supports for their rifles as they approach the target on the surface and assault troops on dry land.

[jcheeseright]

firing a rifle or pistol underwater is no problem, all the percussive force gets sent down the barrel and away from you remember!

 

bullets underwater are every bit as lethal as normal, albeit with significantly reduced range;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COea9JqJ7SM

 

there's a fine example of a guy who did a test firing at ballistic gel with a glock underwater, 5.56mm is a lot more hydrodynamic than 9mm and should have much better range.

[NickM]

Significantly reduced range, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp5gdUHFGIQ 2 mins in to avoid the camera setup explanation. 5-6 ft on an AK47/74? bullet. It seems to turn upwards in one of the shots and almost start tumbling.

[Baz JJ]

There are some great videos on this subject on You Tube.

The one with an AK firing while it is filmed by a high speed camera is interesting, The bullet goes about 6ft and then drops to the bottom. Yhe camera is running at about 18000 frames per second and shows the gas escaping from the blowback tube

 

ETA sorry crossed posts with Nick.

[Ian_Gere]

Bear in mind that water doesn't compress, so it behaves very differently to air. I think it mainly comes down to the calibre and velocity rather than surface area and momentum. Simplistically, if a NATO 5.56mm hits water at 940m/s then ideally it takes approx 12.7 microseconds for the entire width of the calibre to pass the surface, which is handy for simple maths because the bullet is approx 12mm from tip to full width. However in reality we need calculus to mathematically examine what happens, but nonetheless we can say roughly that for the first microsecond all the bullet's force is applied to 1mm².

 

I'm a bit out of my depth here, but what I'm trying to get at is that all bullets which are pointed initially encounter the same width of column of water and that water has a fixed elastic constant which is very low, so there is only so much of it which can be shifted in a given amount of time, which means that there is a point at which it doesn't matter how much more force is applied to the water the tip of the bullet hits, kinetically the water cannot absorb it and neither can the bullet keep it as velocity so, according to Isaac Newton, that energy must be conserved in other forms - so, I think, that's why big heavy fast bullets get blown apart within a similar distance through water and period of time as smaller slower bullets.

[Baz JJ]

Watching American Guns tonight on TV, the gunsmiths made a custom 50 cal sniper rifle with a carbon fibre barrel.

In the test shoot, they fired it a several hundred yards range and shot though about four or five fish tanks full of water.

The slug penetrated the tanks and entered a 50 gallon drum of fuel, igniting it.

 

I was more impressed by the Iowa x12 optics.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xshl9q_american-guns-season-2episode-7-tommy-gun-20-pound-50-cal_tv

 

At about 33 minutes

[NickM]

What the actual F!!!!

 

What game do you stalk that requires a 50cal bullet to take down?!?

 

Anywhere else that conversation with a gunsmith would have gone something like this.

 

Uh yeah ... my ideal hunting gun is a carbon fibre 50cal, but its got to be under 20lb so can carry it easily.

 

What the f**k are you stalking, tanks or truck engines?

[Ian_Gere]

Godzilla. Obviously.

[Baz JJ]

I have a cunning plan

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMERICAN-VIETNAM-PATROL-BOAT-PBR-/190894871290?pt=UK_Power_Boats&hash=item2c723892fa

[Ian_Gere]

^^The race is on to get patches made that read "PBR Streetgang".