Potential Site Location w/ map and photos

[fivezerothree]

Lancashire County Council got back to me. I was asking if they had any specific safety requirements and how they best recommend to move forward as I really did want their go ahead.

 

In their reply they mentioned absolutely nothing about safety but talked about Airsoft being a 'deterrent' to use public footpaths, ipso facto, a chargeable offense. I don't know whether there is any law behind this at all. Surely a deterrent is subjective!

 

Put it this way I personally have 3-4 acres of land. A public footpath through the farthest part. If I want to, I can prance around naked and poo on as many rocks as possible but if Mr. Norman Walker comes across my legal activities on my own private land (near a public footpath) and is 'deterred' then I committing an offense!?

 

I want to work with these guys and make sure everyone is relatively happy with the event so I will most likely drop the proposed site.

[Richard65]

Found the following on the Durham County Council website faq section on public right of way- probably on others but this came up first on the google search. Although they do not cover airsofting they give an indication that should help. If you can use firearms over a public footpath then airsoft pellets should not be a problem.

 

Overall it probably comes down to what Ian was saying - have a written risk assessment which includes a player briefing where everyone is told to be aware of potential users of the footpaths. Make sue that the briefing tells then to call `cease fire' or similar as soon as walkers are spotted and then wait for a marshall to call `game on' before anyone starts firing again. If you also make it clear that anyone who fails to comply immediately with the `cease fire' call will be removed from the game/site then you should be OK (that is my view from reading this and not official legal advice).

 

I would guess that most sites have a `cease fire' rule for their insurance e.g. to protect a player who has his/her eye protection come off during a game.

Can firearms be used on a Public Right of Way?

It is not an offence to shoot across a public right of way, although to do so may amount to a common law nuisance or intimidation, depending on the
circumstances. It is, however, an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 feet of the centre of a byway (or other route carrying public
vehicular rights) if it injures, interrupts or endangers any user of the route. (Highways Act 1980 section 16.1 )

It is also an offence to have a loaded air-weapon - or any other firearm whether loaded or not - together with ammunition in a public place, including any public right of way, unless the person has lawful authority or a reasonable excuse, such as a landowner or tenant shooting vermin on his own land. (Firearms Act 1968 section 19)

 

What if someone uses intimidation or threatening behaviour intended to deter use of a Public Right of Way?

The use of intimidating behaviour with the intention of deterring the use of a Public Right of Way is possibly an offence and may amount to
obstruction of the path. In the first place, we will seek to address any underlying issues which have lead to the situation arising. We may then
issue a warning to the offender and involve the police as appropriate.
(Public Order Act 1986 section 4)

 

Who is responsible if I am injured because of dangers on a Right of Way?

Owners and occupiers of land crossed by public rights of way can be liable for injuries caused to path users by their negligence. For example, if a
stile were to collapse under a walker, or if a path user were to be injured by an electric fence placed across a path, then the injured
party may pursue a claim against the occupier of the land. (Occupiers Liability Act 1957)

[Moose87]

by reading that, i take away that like people say if there is good safety measures involved then there is no wrong doing, people at the site will not be using intimidating or threatening behaviour because as soon as a walker appears the guns are laid on the floor and thus negated, so there is no threat. so that sees off their argument.

so yer a safety briefing covering these point helps alot.

[Ian_Gere]

Yeah, well ^that Durham CC stuff^ makes it clear as mud, eh? "Possibly", "may"... I think that your best bet is to speak to your local coppers and see what their attitude is.

 

Without saying anything libellous, I grew up in Lancashire, Blackpool to be exact, so not the same kind of place at all, but under Lancashire CC just the same, and it was widely believed that you couldn't get anything which needed CC cooperation done without what I referred to above as "the judicious application of slush money". I expect that if you can get your local coppers on board, then you could approach the CC with a plan which involved a donation to a charity suggested by whomever deals with it...

 

To be perfectly clear here, I am not suggesting that you bribe anybody, nor that charitable donation is used as a cover for bribery. Merely that every right thinking person is well disposed towards projects which raise money for charity.

[Moose87]

fair point, say you will donate to a violent crimes charity!! That your site educates people in the safe use of air weapons.

[fivezerothree]

Yeah this is all wishy washy. The thing is, the County Council can only operate within the law just like myself and if the plan of the site being marshalled and calling ceasefires is upheld I am not breaking the law.

 

I just rang the firearms dept. of Lancashire Constabulary and he said "the reason that airsoft weapons go under the radar is because they cannot harm as rifles and shotguns can. As long as you shoot 50m away from any public highways, don't hurt anyone or scare them intentionally you are well within the law." – of course all of this is documented within the VCRA 2006.

 

Logically, I'm taking the precautions necessary in order to keep people safe and out of harms way which makes it law abiding. The County Council could make a fuss but in reality do very little. A real issue is if I was to piss off a particular group a walkers and they decided to stay in the area.

[Moose87]

well i doubt that would happen, but its still private land so they can either leave or you phone the police for trespassing?? would ruin the game but i think its highly unlikely, just aslong as the battles arent raging down the path you should be fine, you could put up warning signs like you said earlier to advise people not to leave the path and if they see a game in play to advise them to flag down a member of staff in a safety jacket. the signs can me put up and removed only on skirmish days

[fivezerothree]

well i doubt that would happen, but its still private land so they can either leave or you phone the police for trespassing?? would ruin the game but i think its highly unlikely, just aslong as the battles arent raging down the path you should be fine, you could put up warning signs like you said earlier to advise people not to leave the path and if they see a game in play to advise them to flag down a member of staff in a safety jacket. the signs can me put up and removed only on skirmish days

This is exactly what I am thinking.

[Moose87]

im sure once its running and people realise it happens there then you wont get any trouble

[Nickona]

rather than a door bell you could go old school and just have a large bell people ring to alert the marshals of their presence.

 

Also any luck on diverting the footpath around the site?

[Ian_Gere]

Actually Trespassing is not a criminal offence and the police can't do anything about it. There is an offence called Aggravated Trespass which is where 2 or more people trespass with some intent or other, I forget, but it's basically to stop people having raves on farmland. To get coppers involved you need to claim the trespassers have either committed Criminal Damage or one of the offences that replaced 'Disturbing The Peace' under the Public Order Act.

 

Since your rental of the site for airsoft is a lawful activity, and anyone simply loitering on the right of way prevents you carrying it out, then you have a good case to have them arrested for Harassment under the '97 Act, but also bear in mind that even swearing at somebody can be considered 'Threatening Behaviour' so don't do it yourself and use it as the excuse to call the old bill if you can provoke any pains-in-the-arse, subtly of course, into swearing at you.

[Moose87]

ahhh cunning like the fox!!! i doubt it will happen but knowledge of how deal with it like that is always handy

[fivezerothree]

After a few more rounds of email ping pong with Lancashire County Council's Public Right of Way Dept I got a clearer picture.

 

They said:

We are supportive of your proposal in principle and if you find an alternative location I am happy to advise suitable measures regarding any public rights of way that may be on the site. I would like to see something with the greatest chance of success, which means keeping customers happy, which means minimal interruptions from public. I would stress that it is not necessarily that you need fewer public rights of way on the site but arranged in such a way that potential conflict could be managed more easily.

What they have also said is that if by holding the event and a walker decides not to walk down a particular path from seeing the activity from a distance and complains, I am technically committing an offense. Or rather the Council would like me to believe that.

 

It's a very murky piece of legislation at best and when thrown into a grey area like this there is no clarity whatsoever.

[Nickona]

It might be easier for you if you moved the footpaths to the edge of the site so they didn't have to walk through it

[fivezerothree]

It might be easier for you if you moved the footpaths to the edge of the site so they didn't have to walk through it

Moving footpaths requires a great deal of work and a really good reason. I am in talks with the head of the department and have mentioned it in my last email. I assume he will enlighten me about it,

[Ian_Gere]

If I were you, I'd assume he's a dick and that he'll just ignore that part of your proposal. As you say, it's murky. It's the old bill who'll decide whether or not to arrest you, so it's their attitude towards the specific possibility of walkers being deterred that matters. You might also want to see if you can find out what your local Crown Prosecution Service attitude is, because ultimately they decide whether to go forward with a prosecution. I'm not sure whether they will give advice on possibilities to the gen pub though. They probably would talk to another lawyer, even if just off the record. Some solicitors do a £5 advice service...

[Mike636]

Just Google map'd Deeply Vale Lane it's only about half an hour from me, how's discussions with the council coming ?

[fivezerothree]

Just Google map'd Deeply Vale Lane it's only about half an hour from me, how's discussions with the council coming ?

Good in principle – there's not a lot they can do about it as I have found out. There are just some issues that need to be constantly in mind. The ceasefire scenarios were discussed mostly and the council we're worried that if walkers were put off by people wielding RIFs it would be classed as deterring the public away from a public footpath which I could be prosecuted with.

 

As long as people shout ceasefire and repeat the shout if they heard it then proceed to guns on the deck it shouldn't be an issue, We would be certainly doing everything possible in our power and then the marshals can advice an alternate safer route or escort them if they are being fannies about it.

 

Edit: I'm also bothered about the frequency of walkers. I cannot guarantee it will always be zero or a few. It's also weather dependant – I'm pretty sure there will be more instances such as these in great weather. That alone makes me wonder whether people would return if we had more than a few on one particular day. People are paying to play afterall and not to be told to stop frequently.

[Mike636]

Well you could always spend a couple of hours at the site on a decent day, and just get an idea of how many walkers pass through then multiply that until you get to your desired finish time and that should give you a rough idea to work from. Also checked a couple of walking websites and there do not seem to be any published routes near, the closest one to the golf club (I used the postcode) is 9 miles away on the other side of the M66. So the majority of walkers would be locals who I'm sure would be very amicable especially if your bringing business to the local area.

[fivezerothree]

Well you could always spend a couple of hours at the site on a decent day, and just get an idea of how many walkers pass through then multiply that until you get to your desired finish time and that should give you a rough idea to work from. Also checked a couple of walking websites and there do not seem to be any published routes near, the closest one to the golf club (I used the postcode) is 9 miles away on the other side of the M66. So the majority of walkers would be locals who I'm sure would be very amicable especially if your bringing business to the local area.

Well what they do is usually start either from the A680 which is north of the site and walk down. Others start South West-ish on Walmersley Old Road (near the Masons Arms) and walk up that way, they use bridleways etc before getting to the public footpaths.

 

But I'm having a few airsoft pros come up and have a look at it soon to get a better feel!

[fivezerothree]

Well you could always spend a couple of hours at the site on a decent day, and just get an idea of how many walkers pass through then multiply that until you get to your desired finish time and that should give you a rough idea to work from. Also checked a couple of walking websites and there do not seem to be any published routes near, the closest one to the golf club (I used the postcode) is 9 miles away on the other side of the M66. So the majority of walkers would be locals who I'm sure would be very amicable especially if your bringing business to the local area.

Yeah it's be business and volunteering opportunities with inclusive training eventually. I would rack up a deal with St John's Ambulance and see if I can find a relevant H&S course of sorts.

[NickM]

The door bell system would work, fairly well, ring the bell or blow the airhorn on entering and leaving the site for example would work. There is a public footpath that runs the parallel to the boundary 1 ft away for the full length of the site at one place I play they just have an "if you see a walker shout guns down, everyone puts their guns on the floor, the marshal will call when its clear" in their safety brief.

 

Another site has paths that cross the site so they put up a length of mine tape ( red white plastic stuff) with a small sign on either end saying to shout loudly to make their presence known or points to an alternative route. Then the same guns down procedure above kicks in.