Gazzalesta Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hi please can someone help me awhile ago I brought a upgraded gearbox that was not what it seemed so I have been buying the bits to put it rite so tonite I got the final parts and went to build the box only to find when I put my new shs gears in the box with or without shims I cannot close the case properly it's a kings arm case. Does anyone what's wrong or had this happen before. Thanks for any help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Does it still have a problem with a completely bare case and just one gear? Only thing I can think of is the bushings/bearings don't match the diameter of the gear shafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Even with just one gear it does it. That much pressure it's trying to push the bearing out of casing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Can you get different size bearing for gearboxs if so how would I find out what size I would need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 It sounds like the shafts on your gears are larger than the bushes. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but if something like this has got you stumped then you probably lack the knowledge and experience to put a gearbox together without trashing the parts you just bought. Either get it sorted by someone who knows what they're doing, or hit Google and YouTube and get on a steep learning curve. There are some great videos on how to assemble and shim a gearbox, and if you take your time and apply common sense there's no reason why you can't learn a load and make a decent job of getting it done. But you need to know something about bearings, shafts and how they should work together. Find out why clearances are important and why too loose or too tight are a bad thing. But mainly you'll figure out the difference between 'that'll do' and 'spot fecking on'. And there's a world of difference between the two, but it's so satisfying to nail it. First step though, measure the shaft diameter and the bearing diameter. You don't need anything fancy. You should be able to tell the difference between 7mm and 8mm with a ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 I'm know means an expert in airsoft as I've not been in it long but I know when something don't fit I understand what your saying but with the gearbox empty and only 1 gear in it the casing won't close properly. To me the shafts are to long. It's not the diameter as the shaft fits through the bearing fine just not enough what is causing the issue of the box not shutting fully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted January 7, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 7, 2017 I'm know means an expert in airsoft as I've not been in it long but I know when something don't fit I understand what your saying but with the gearbox empty and only 1 gear in it the casing won't close properly. To me the shafts are to long. It's not the diameter as the shaft fits through the bearing fine just not enough what is causing the issue of the box not shutting fully Sounds to me like you already know what the problem is. Unless there's shims in there that don't need to be, you have gears that don't fit. Buy different gears or a new box shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Yes I've contacted the seller of the gears and he is going to refund me just need to find a decent high speed gear set now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 7, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 7, 2017 Your gearbox is reinforced at the back The problem is the spur gear is catching where there is reinforced material My guess is you are using a 12:1 or 13:1 set And the spur is catching You will very very likely get this no matter what make of gears you use You "should" be able to use up to a 16:1 set but any faster it will catch on spur I have had this on D-Boys v2 boxes and others It requires a bit of dremel work To grind away a circular bit of material that is catching It needs grinding on the top or right hand half of gearbox Then it all works dandy I'm out atm so can't go into exact detail But if you look at the other half of this pic You should see a raised half circle area on the right side of pic... http://s7.photobucket.com/user/meancivicsi/media/airsoft/King%20Arms%20TROY%20MRF/IMG_2523Large.jpg.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 7, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 7, 2017 Right on the right part of pic, you should a raised circle area about 1/3 of a circle... I'd ring it red but on fone ATM Anyway if your box is like that then THAT needs grinding Or You use a 16:1 or STD 18:1 ratio gear set Dremel cheapo cutting disc the size of a 10p A few mins and all dandy A PITA but some boxes are like this reinforced at back F*ck knows why coz 99% of the time if the go They usually just crack up at the front Hope some of this helps if ya box is reinforced at back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 That's great help thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 That'll teach me to stick my oar in when I'm not a 100% sure and after a couple of beers. Would you mind posting a couple of pics to help educate the ignorant amongst us? Hope you get it sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 If you get a chance could you circle the part that needs grinding. Your rite the gears were 12.1 lol same box as yours so if you can show me what I need to grind it would be great. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 8, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 8, 2017 This explains what I mean: now what I used was more like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverline-763600-Rotary-Tool-Metal-Cutting-Disc-Set-18pce-22mm-Dia/252409494090?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D51e68eab66be41afba7564c3d110f5c9%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D380887871716 NB: these cheap discs are crap - break if you fart near them (watch your eyes - WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES FFS) BUT if you use 2 thin wafer discs fitted it will cut through anything no problem at that price - wtf just use 2 discs at a time for modding stuff - but use eye-pro as always ffs http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/135W-ROTARY-MINI-DRILL-MULTI-TOOL-KIT-DREMEL-TYPE-42-ACCESSORIES-FLEXI-SHAFT/380887871716?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D51e68eab66be41afba7564c3d110f5c9%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D380887871716 Well any device will do - flexi shaft is optional or buy the flexi shaft attachment perhaps really makes intricate work a lot easier - not a must but just a bit easier to handle... Some rear reinforced boxes are ok - it is the top half on certain types that give you the agro Around by the spur gear at rear it is solid metal - this isn't the problem It is the other half - or top half of box - if this has a " raised " & radius part THAT is the problem Only becomes a problem on the higher speed gears - std & 16:1 gears don't hit that raised radius bit Well - you should be getting the idea - you only need to grind away a small radius area and can make a very neat job - well neater that the top video but kind of about the amount required. OR the extreme way of doing it ... NO - I don't go this nutz - there is no need for this sledgehammer to crack a nut method I mean yeah it will work but a bit bull in a china shop approach still if you only have a regular grinder then yeah I suppose but a dremel or cheapo china clone - one with a flexible shaft is ultra handy £25 or so fleabay PITA - but the spur's inner teeth is what is hitting the other raised radius reinforced area of top box Only happens on really high speed gears on some boxes... coz the spur's inner teeth that mesh with sector gear increase as ratio's change (compare the std spur to high speed spur & you see the difference) Oh well PITA but it is all do-able in the end hope this helps - best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 That is spot on I see what need to be done now thanks for the help will let you know how it goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 8, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 8, 2017 Live n learn m8, live n learn not all reinforced boxes have the "raised ridge" Got a cheap SRC one in front of me that is reinforced or filled at back but no ridge (so should be ok with a high speed set as is) Think say 40% of boxes are "hollow" at back like G&G, VFC Classic Army - maybe G&P etc.... A 20% are reinforced at back - BUT no ridge like SRC's and some others And say 40% are reinforced at back WITH a ridge that needs modding but only for high speed gears like: D-Boys, King Arms, ForceCore, Cyma maybe - std or 16:1's should be fine without a mod This is only a rough guide or percentage.... Keep ya SHS gears - they are without doubt a great budget set of gears a few snides or moody batches have happened or duff mk3 sets with weak bevels but overall they are the best cheap gears imho There are others like ZCI or Big Dragon etc.. but imho I'd give SHS or RA the edge you should be able to space & shim them very nicely with good amount of teeth meshing nicely and run well Shimming - arrghhh that does take a bit of time to get to grips with and the more you do "hopefully" the better you get, but a decent set of gears also helps if you wanna learn probably way way way too much look up a guy called Roger "shut up gears" way way way overkill some might say - but if you get anything over half as smooth as his boxes that is still decent his stuff is among some of the best guides out there - way over the top maybe but explains loads (I don't agree 101% with it all but most of it - to each their own as they say) Best of luck - damn poxy toy guns can be a ball ache but if all goes well you get that feeling of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 Mate thanks for the help ground the high bit down and the box closes nicely and gears move freely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 Ok feel abit of a tit now all bk together firing great but everything is full auto lol what have I done wrong I'm guessing it a simple fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 20, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 20, 2017 Ok feel abit of a tit now all bk together firing great but everything is full auto lol what have I done wrong I'm guessing it a simple fix Normally that will be selector plate & Cut Off Lever or COL related.... The selector plate should not be the case if all working OK perviously in same gun sometimes when replacing the plate or different receiver a bit of modding might be needed BUT I'm going to assume the selector plate operated perfectly in semi previously - so plate is ok (had one crack on refitting into M4 receiver but I think it would struggle on full auto - nah doubt that too) is the small spring - selector plate & COL present & fitted correctly, this returns the COL on semi in auto the COL is pushed upwards and stays upwards disengaging the COL's action in semi COL pops the trigger switch trolley off the trigger - the sear and flies back to reset It needs that tiny spring to ensure the COL returns asap blah blah blah I think most likely the COL spring is missing or not working correctly or somehow the COL is not returning properly sometimes if COL is tightly fitted inside the box it can bind or slow return normally it operates a tiny bit loosely than too tightly if you understand - especially if COL gets changed or refitted The COL itself could be worn - but if it was working beforehand on semi then I tend to doubt this is the case COL's all look ok until you compare a brand new one and then you see the wear but I doubt if COL is that worn tbh more likely the issue is not wear but operation or fitting issue is my gut feeling If still no easy fix or joy then most likely it is going to need to be stripped down - bummer At the point you have gears assembled and no cylinder/piston but you are doing a "spin test" for shimming etc... This is the point you have trigger, switch, selector plate etc also fitted... When conducting the gears "spin test", engage semi with selector in center and pull trigger on semi.... now roll the sector backwards through cylinder window whilst trigger pulled in semi... as the sector's teeth finally disappear then the COL should soon rise, pop the trolley and reset the trolley.... If it doesn't operate correctly something like trolley/trigger/COL is not operating correctly & needs further investigation Hopefully some pointers - but tbh re-reading some of you original post it is unclear if this box previously worked correctly Also sometimes fitting or rebuilding a box from scratch throws up some other issues or fitting another gearbox or other make into another gun can throw up a few glitches - nothing major usually but not everything is all 101% TM compatible no matter what they say So it could be a qwirky issue with selector plate or fire select operation too a little more info/history of gun/project might help but sounds like a simple mechanical COL issue at first guess hope some of this helps - did my best from description or pointers to check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I brought the box ready to go on to find numerous problem so I have no idea I'd semi ever worked I brought a new selector plate as that was missing a bit and just ordered a new cut off leaver incase it's down to a wear issue. But thanks for your advice il try that later oh yeah I has the spring and I changed it as I brought a spring kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 20, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 20, 2017 Ahhh - well you got travel on selector plate: Left & it engages safety arm to stop trigger being pulled Middle = semi but COL lever is down to operate correctly with spring returning it Right = COL is raised right up for auto as explained Normally most stuff or bits do work ok with a smidge of tolerance However some selector plates like most stuff, certain ones work better/worse than others yes M4 & MP5's are different plates but I'm saying just M4's can vary the "arch" or "horseshoe" exact location can vary a bit from one to another though not too common but in cases it can throw stuff out and the smooth selection can be thrown right out After a few headaches after more headaches you learn to make careful comparisons between parts replace a badly worn part or broken part with just anything can get you into more grief... If you compare parts as a routine you may find before fitment - " well that ain't right.... " sadly in your case there wasn't a selector plate there to compare but check it operates left/center/right as described soz - it is a bigger pain to get a completely newly built box running than a quick fix of existing box as you really really need to triple check everything works 101% as it should - difficult if all parts are newly built so we learn by mistakes & obtain a tiny bit more wisdom - f*cking PITA way of learning but you fully learn imho back on topic - yeah could be a worn COL too - sounds like it was an older box ya got hold of so who knows it could be worn on COL - ah well you got some pointers and getting a steep learning curve no doubt it may need stripping again to check the operation - rolling sector back as described etc.... then compare the COL's old & new if you feel it needs replacing - compare side by side: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 20, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 20, 2017 The only real caution is to ensure you replace parts that are the actual problem..... It does happen that we steam in and change stuff we don't need to thinking THAT is the issue BUT sometimes changing parts that don't need changing only adds to the problem(s) further That is why we need to really check stuff out thoroughly first - best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Ok just stripped the box down again the cut off leaver definitely has wear. But what I'm noticing is that the selector plate is catching on the casing bearing should I get a kings arm selector to go with the casing or does it not matter ? I still don't really understand how semi auto works though lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted January 21, 2017 Supporters Share Posted January 21, 2017 Selector plate can catch on: sector bushing/bearing or spur bushing/bearing some plates should have recess to avoid catching on any bearing/bushing protruding slightly like this one: most likely the sector gear bearing is catching but this might shed some light on the possible issue: See now you could buy this one, that one, or another one but there have been times when some plates don't always fit well - had one plate that was a bit fat to fit in the guides/runners on box and was damn stiff to operate you could order up a SHS selector plate with or without the copper strip: or that "should" operate quite well you may need the copper plate on a selector plate if there are prongs/contacts on the trigger switch Some switches must have a copper plate but to be honest get a selector with a plate if unsure As for how the trigger switch & COL & trigger sear all work it is hard to explain... so here is an ICS video that explains it more Now you may have to watch it a few times but you should get the idea... in SEMI the COL slips under the trolley - bit that makes contact to complete switch circuit it slips under the trolley's " lug " and when trigger is pulled the trolley engages.... after firing the COL rises and lifts the rear of trolley popping it off the trigger/sear to reset trigger releases & relatches at rest blah blah blah..... AUTO - the selector plate lifts the COL upwards out of the way so it doesn't pop the trolley no more full auto fire until trigger is released - trolley never lifts off the trigger/sear watch it a few times and you should get a rough idea of what id supposed to do what... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzalesta Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Rite I'm getting there full auto working fine trigger lock ok but still when I put it in semi auto it fires once then the whole gun jams until I take it apart ? Ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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