Making the most of a Lonex A1 Supreme.

[Hangtight]

I've got my hands on a G&G Tr16 Crw which is going to be the basis for a project. It's currently fitted with a Guarder gearbox shell running some other decent bits including a DSG set up on (I think) 18:1 gearing and a Lonex A1 Supreme motor. Seeing as I'm not into ridiculous rof I'm wondering what would be the best way to use the motor to achieve trigger response and around 20 rps @ 350fps. It came with a Gate Nano SSR and some 7.4 lipos which I'd like to use, and will be running a 300ish mm barrel.

My current plan is to go with 18:1 SSG and a degree of short stroking to get the cycle time down without sending the rof too high. Am I thinking along the right lines, or does someone want to buy a brand new Lonex motor?

[Hangtight]

Scratch the short stroking, as it's not necessary. Properly ported cylinder it shall be then.

[Hangtight]

After much searching I've come to the conclusion that this just isn't the right motor for what I want to do which leaves the options of ; rewinding it, replacing the armature with something 22tpa or just selling the existing spring, motor and DSG and getting the bits to do the job right.

[Sitting Duck]

Unsure of the exact speed of Lonex A1 Supreme but believe it is a fast/quick motor

 

You should hit 20rps to 22rps on 18:1 if the motor is bloomin' quick on 7.4v & deans blah blah blah

But you will be drawing some amps - them high speed motors

like SHS High Speed & Big Dragon are bloody quick but they get warm pulling more juice

 

I would recommend High Speed motors on std 18:1 gears only

 

The moment you try to run faster gearing eg: 12:1 or 13:1 high speeds gears

or DSG's or Short Stroking which require higher springs to compensate for power loss in shorter stroke

The amps really ramp up further, motor gets hot - not good as magnets can degrade with higher heat temps

plus wires get warm - but also your battery drains quickly from the high amps just gushing out to the greedy motor

 

A rough rough guide in my book for what little it is worth on motor upgrade speeds

 

Speed motors run at say 35k & up - these as stated are for std gears and std springs

low say 14 - 16 tpa with strong neodym magnets like SHS HS - BDM160 etc....

 

Balanced motors are what is a more ideal motor say 25k to 30k - perfect trade off for nigh on most modest to semi insane builds

18 to 22 tpa but don't quote me on the exact windings like SHS High Torque (it is a balanced motor really) & ZCI Balanced

 

Torque motors can be 18k to 25k - these are like lame stock motors in speed but can pull a tank m170 or more spring

24tpa upwards frankentorque's are like 28tpa+

A ZCI torque is slower than SHS torque coz the SHS is a balanced motor really

 

 

TBH I've tried a few this n that combo's ultra quick motors & G&G's poor DSG FireHawk....

Nah best bet for snappy rebuild is a 12 or 13:1 set on a balanced shs torque - DSG is overated imho

on 7.4v lipo you can get 23rps+ with modest amp draw mean battery lasts and stuff isn't running hot

 

or for std setup add deans & balanced motor probably 17rps on 7.4v

or speed motor on 18:1 - still get 20-22rps if on deans

 

This is only a rough guide coz motors vary loads and gun shimmed good/crap bearing/bushing plus spring rating/fps

but might give you a little more info to get the snappiness without too much grief/expense

mind you a snappy gun means little if you are a crap player like moi

but my excuse I need all the help I can get - no really I do mean that bit

[Hangtight]

The 13:1 with a SHS torque running 7.4v, M100 and 280mm barrel is where I've got to. It won't break the bank, or itself. It'll fire at a sensible rate and have a nice quick trigger response without overspinning. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

Any takers for the parts to make yourself unpopular on the field?

[Hangtight]

I've been looking into the Lonex motor a bit more. It's described as a 'balance' motor, but I can't find any real figures to compare it with the SHS. Lonex's figures give a no load speed of 39715, 30978 & 0.45kgcm of torque pulling 19A at max efficiency and 19143 & 0.91kgcm pulling 39A (193W output) with 47% efficiency at maximum power. Working those figures back would imply that's at about 10.5v. The only figures I can find for the SHS is a no load speed of about 38000rpm on 11.1v. I'll try and find some more numbers, but I wonder just how far apart the two motors are?

[Hangtight]

Hmm, 14tpa for the Lonex vs 16tpa for the SHS High Torque...

[Hangtight]

Make that 22tpa for the new generation SHS High Torque.

[Sitting Duck]

Hmm, 14tpa for the Lonex vs 16tpa for the SHS High Torque...

 

 

Make that 22tpa for the new generation SHS High Torque.

 

 

Well if you head over & reg at Airsoft Mechanics they go into all this TPA much much more

BUT - they said I think the SHS Torque was 16tpa - wtf ???

 

Nah - really think they mean the SHS Speed motor is 16tpa

The Big Dragon M160 is a 14tpa and that is pretty damn quick

There is also a red cheapy motor on DX Extreme and f*ck me that is quick like the BD M160

Oddly enough the cheap £24 red dx.com is wired up incorrectly - well about 3 of them were

The red terminal is actually the negative - think they put the cap on wrong or the magnets ar$e about face

 

BUT like all very fast high speed motors they WILL draw more amps which drain your battery & run hotter

 

It is also not just the tpa but the thickness of the wire used in the winding plus the strength of the magnets blah blah blah

 

So every gun build will vary slightly depending on spring, wiring with next to no joins to reduce resistance,

bearings/bushings - bearings will be quicker but bushings will tend to last longer I have found or a mixture,

Shimming, motor height/angle - all these factors will affect the amps/rof/load etc......

Plus revisions in motor(s) & spec - not tried the element motors etc.....

 

SHS or Rocket are a good go to motor that won't break the bank and a pretty safe recommendation I feel

 

Any rof I give are to be taken as a rough guide only could be a few rps either way - though to get high 20's on 7.4v takes some doing

of course a 15c lipo is not wise min 20c - I use 25c mainly but a 30-40c also ups the rof a bit more too....

 

eg: std gun 7.4v 20/25c might do 13 rps on 18:1

add deans & mosfet maybe get 15rps (mainly from deans but also good rewire if fitting mosfet)

replace slow stock motor with shs torque should up it 30% aprox to near 18rps - perhaps get 20/21 on high speed motor

gear change to 12 or 13:1 should get you 23-25rps on torque motor....

avoid chucking in 11.1v or pushing guns past 25rps I'd say as it may overspin and serious overspin can mean you get close to PE

I mean you can go faster but it needs a bit more work like ShortStroking

USA guns can use higher springs so they are ok until say 30rps before needing work/mods

 

In any case the faster it goes usually the faster it wears/more heat etc.... so we usually say:

in the twenties is plenty

 

You can run a gun on higher juice 9.6v or 11.1v though contacts may arc a little long term

but when you gun overcycles a little - on a fresh battery a little overspin is ok

But if she double fires on semi when you start pushing more juice I'd ease up on the juice

shredded a number of pistons taking the pi$$ or bevels on all metal rack pistons

 

Somewhere around 25rps is about the limit when you may need to ease up or do more homework on overspinning

hence creep a gun up to about 20 or low twenties and you got a snappy gun that shouldn't shred too quickly

(a few more rps you won't notice & it is the player's skill than the extra rps fire rate that usually wins the game)

 

Jeez another waffle post - hopefully you should get up around the 20-25rps and be happy without too much grief

[Hangtight]

That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks. I'm going to be running 2200mah 25C batteries so I've got plenty of current overhead, and a Gate Nano SSR will stop me frying contacts. Looks like I'm going shopping and putting some bits up for sale!

[ImTriggerHappy]

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ultimate-infinity-cnc-u-30000-long-motor-high-torque

[Hangtight]

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ultimate-infinity-cnc-u-30000-long-motor-high-torque

You've got expensive tastes! Is the extra 20 quid justified, or are we paying for shiny?

[Hangtight]

And apart from needing a speed controller, is there any good reason no one seems to be making the move to brushless motors? I've had them for years in my RC stuff and they're even in my cordless power tools. High torque, high efficiency, proper speed control, longer battery life, longer motor life...

[Hangtight]

http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=361139217782&category=100058&pm=1&ds=0&t=1484756905552

 

There's a 20mm diameter inrunner that'll do 230W... Albeit at 18.5v and 11A. Less resistive loss in the wiring though... If you can find somewhere to put the battery.

[Sitting Duck]

There was a thing on Airsoft Mechanics about somebody bring brushless to the market

but not really checked - still a long way off and if amps is a max 11amp then it falls short if I'm guessing right

 

For what little it might be worth on the amp side of things....

 

stock gun will draw 10amp to 15amp

 

tweaked gun with balanced motor 15amp to say just over 20amps - 350fps m100

 

running same gun with speed motor 20amp min to 30amp+

 

the super fast motor will drain your battery quite quickly - often 40%

I noticed a 23.5amp speed motor vs 17amp when using a balanced shs torque motor (13:1 gear setup)

plugged into a cheap RC Power Meter - about £5 to £10 on fleabay

mine was about a tenner but was fitted with deans male/female already to just plug in

Handy - got shimming/motor height set - the odd test & tweak with a meter can assist in finding the sweet spot drawing lowest amps

note - lowest amps does NOT guarantee the motor height is right, shimming correctly & setting up correctly is the most important

BUT I'm just saying about listening and watching the amp draw to fine tune 1/2 a turn either way so it sounds & runs perfect

(well as close as damn it as we try to get it)

 

There is the mofo more expensive clip on ring testers if you got money to splash

 

but it all adds up - keep the amps down & it keeps the heat down too blah blah blah....

bad shimming increases the amps/heat - very bad shimming - yeah I shimmed bevel way too low in first few builds

a very low bevel means the pinion hardly contacts the bevels teeth so it is trying to jam or wedge the bevel into box/bushing

very high amps/heat soon takes place and you just know something is up

yeah I screwed up - shimming is not quite as easy I first thought nor will "yeah that will do I think" work well long term

 

sounds daft but the gun like anything mechanical actually talks to you

yeah ok - I know I'm weird, but the overspin, the sound, the amps/heat it all gives you indications how good it all runs

 

Build to your budget - the important thing above all else is build it as best as you can - that is what really counts

[Hangtight]

Ordered myself the ASG. Anyone want to see pics of the state of the Lonex once I eventually managed to get it out? The height adjuster was wound in so tight the end of the motor shaft had actually started to grind into the lifter plate. The pinion is a horror show and the armature shimming is toast. Let's not even talk about the piston and the tappet plate...