- Oct 7, 2017
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Met Police Don't Seem to Know What a Two Tone Is.
- Thread starter John_W
- Start date
Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,190
- 6,048
This, right here, is the quality of our elected representatives who create legislation.
Dogsbody100
Members
- Feb 2, 2020
- 145
- 132
I refuse to listen to anything that repulsive woman has to say, it’s never helpful or constructive and ups the ante unnecessarily if anything. The focus of this should remain on the legalities and nothing else, that way logic and common sense has a better chance of prevailing - two things she has no grasp of whatsoever.
Some extracts from the Guardian story:
The Metropolitan police have defended officers who arrested and handcuffed a 12-year-old boy seen with a toy gun, saying they acted in line with training and expectations.
.... son Kai was led away by armed officers and detained in a police vehicle during the raid....
.... responding to a report by a member of the public that they had seen a male with a firearm at the property, eventually dearrested Kai after establishing that it was a BB or plastic pellet gun.
.... I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son, but we were shouted at to put our hands above our heads and walk one by one out to the street. We were all terrified.”
She and her two daughters, aged 16 and 23, were evacuated from the property while it was searched by firearms officers.
and from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53538740
Officers were called to a home in Camden on 17 July after a passer-by said they saw a "black male holding a firearm on the sofa".
Kai Agyepong was held while officers searched the home, and was released when a plastic pellet gun was found.
While searching the home, officers verified that the gun was a BB gun, which is similar in size and shape to a viable handgun.
So from what information we have:
There is nothing to show whether the police attending suspected anything they saw was a gun or whether they instantly recognised it as a BB gun on sight.
They searched the property and found the BB gun, and once the situation was clear rearrested Kai (and also the others if they had been arrested/detained)
The family have the right to enquire whether they were treated differently due to Kai being black, from what I've read its a standard response to a firearms report.
The Metropolitan police have defended officers who arrested and handcuffed a 12-year-old boy seen with a toy gun, saying they acted in line with training and expectations.
.... son Kai was led away by armed officers and detained in a police vehicle during the raid....
.... responding to a report by a member of the public that they had seen a male with a firearm at the property, eventually dearrested Kai after establishing that it was a BB or plastic pellet gun.
.... I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son, but we were shouted at to put our hands above our heads and walk one by one out to the street. We were all terrified.”
She and her two daughters, aged 16 and 23, were evacuated from the property while it was searched by firearms officers.
and from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53538740
Officers were called to a home in Camden on 17 July after a passer-by said they saw a "black male holding a firearm on the sofa".
Kai Agyepong was held while officers searched the home, and was released when a plastic pellet gun was found.
While searching the home, officers verified that the gun was a BB gun, which is similar in size and shape to a viable handgun.
So from what information we have:
- A sighting of what looked like a gun was reported
- It was held by a black male
- An armed response team went out
- The exact status of each person held isn't given. In the Guardian Kai was arrested, detained & rearrested, the others were 'evacuated' at gunpoint.
- They may have been arrested, they may have been detained with or without handcuffs.
- It may have been that he was arrested as he matched the description given.
There is nothing to show whether the police attending suspected anything they saw was a gun or whether they instantly recognised it as a BB gun on sight.
They searched the property and found the BB gun, and once the situation was clear rearrested Kai (and also the others if they had been arrested/detained)
The family have the right to enquire whether they were treated differently due to Kai being black, from what I've read its a standard response to a firearms report.
Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,190
- 6,048
Those are both just re-reports of this article: http://camdennewjournal.com/article/boy-12-arrested-by-armed-police-over-toy-gun
It presents "a black male with a gun" as a quote, but doesn't attribute it. I doubt it's from the police.
The thing I'd note is that the kid reckons he was cuffed, and I'd question the necessity for that once they'd searched him, unless he was kicking off (which he might have been, for all we know). It's an unpleasant trend towards the Murcan default of physical escalation and immobilisation, and we've seen where that ends up. All just speculation though.
I'd also speculate that the kid will probably blame the police for this, rather than the armed ferals in his manor that caused a concerned citizen to call it in. It's tough winning hearts and minds with the current narrative of division being peddled by professional grifters like Abbott, and of course David "Haven't seen a police for a while" Lammy, who demands more policing to protect his voting constituents from each other, but then calls foul when they're arrest and convicted.
It presents "a black male with a gun" as a quote, but doesn't attribute it. I doubt it's from the police.
The thing I'd note is that the kid reckons he was cuffed, and I'd question the necessity for that once they'd searched him, unless he was kicking off (which he might have been, for all we know). It's an unpleasant trend towards the Murcan default of physical escalation and immobilisation, and we've seen where that ends up. All just speculation though.
I'd also speculate that the kid will probably blame the police for this, rather than the armed ferals in his manor that caused a concerned citizen to call it in. It's tough winning hearts and minds with the current narrative of division being peddled by professional grifters like Abbott, and of course David "Haven't seen a police for a while" Lammy, who demands more policing to protect his voting constituents from each other, but then calls foul when they're arrest and convicted.
Straight to the media playing the racial victim card and wanting some compo, rather than being more concerned that their son is waving a toy gun around in a manner which ended up with getting a visit from the armed police.
My parents would have beaten me to within an inch of my life if I was responsible for a visit from the police, let alone something that results in a raid by the armed police.
As for police not knowing what a two-tone is, would you want to take that risk as a police officer? "ah its only a toy gun being pointed at me Im sure, its got a bit of colour on it"
Admittedly its America rather than the UK, where everyone and their mum has guns, but oh look... a two tone gun with a bright yellow slide. And its a real gun.
My parents would have beaten me to within an inch of my life if I was responsible for a visit from the police, let alone something that results in a raid by the armed police.
As for police not knowing what a two-tone is, would you want to take that risk as a police officer? "ah its only a toy gun being pointed at me Im sure, its got a bit of colour on it"
Admittedly its America rather than the UK, where everyone and their mum has guns, but oh look... a two tone gun with a bright yellow slide. And its a real gun.
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- Oct 7, 2017
- 6,089
- 5,418
To be fair, I was a six footer when I was eleven, who's to say that little Kai ain't so little, which will add to the fear of those who saw him with the gun, plus yep, some youngsters are involved in all sorts of crap these days, they're not all angels with dirty faces.
Plod did everything right, as the yanks say "no harm, no foul"
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Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,190
- 6,048
It looks like Kai there doesn't have parents, plural, he has an over-indulgent mother. The outcomes for that aren't great, which is why it's even sadder to see him coming to the attention of the police so young.
I hope he gets over this experience and becomes a happy, safe and productive member of society. Who knows, we might even have the next David Lammy on our hands. ?
Ropeyshep
Members
- Apr 14, 2020
- 93
- 33
Hooray for lazy journalism then.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/28/what-are-the-rules-governing-the-use-of-air-guns-in-the-uk
- Thread starter
- #32
Considering when she wanted them banned, they were "Easily converted to fire live ammunition" but now they are "harmless toys" they won't get any support from Dianne Abbott...
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FreeFrag.UK
AF-UK patch owner
- Feb 16, 2018
- 615
- 106
@Tiercel - It's slightly off topic but I'll admit I've found Donut's break downs of various police incidents to be very insightful.
As far as this incident goes, I'd argue it's subject to a variety of failures but @Rogerborg did an exceptional job of outlining the majority of said failures.
From my side of things I can't help but look at the entire situation and think it could have been avoided with proper parental responsibility in place. I've encountered many players since I started who share their passion for airsoft with their children, something I'm certain is common amongst many of us here. Many of the parents I've encountered simply don't allow their kids to access or handle the guns outside of game days or, at minimum, without at least some level of parent supervision.
I think there are a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to airsoft but when all is said and done it is the responsibility of the owner or parent/guardian to ensure that the correct legislation is adhered to. While airsoft guns maybe viewed as "toys", and are often referred to as such, I can't help but wonder how much this contributes to parents handing them off to their kids viewing them as such.
Sadly (as we've long since established) common sense isn't particularly common and it is unfortunate that there are parents who will blindly buy into airsoft without fully comprehending the risks attached to ownership of IFs and even RIFs.
As far as this incident goes, I'd argue it's subject to a variety of failures but @Rogerborg did an exceptional job of outlining the majority of said failures.
From my side of things I can't help but look at the entire situation and think it could have been avoided with proper parental responsibility in place. I've encountered many players since I started who share their passion for airsoft with their children, something I'm certain is common amongst many of us here. Many of the parents I've encountered simply don't allow their kids to access or handle the guns outside of game days or, at minimum, without at least some level of parent supervision.
I think there are a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to airsoft but when all is said and done it is the responsibility of the owner or parent/guardian to ensure that the correct legislation is adhered to. While airsoft guns maybe viewed as "toys", and are often referred to as such, I can't help but wonder how much this contributes to parents handing them off to their kids viewing them as such.
Sadly (as we've long since established) common sense isn't particularly common and it is unfortunate that there are parents who will blindly buy into airsoft without fully comprehending the risks attached to ownership of IFs and even RIFs.
Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,190
- 6,048
The sun rose in the East today, so "liberals" will be calling for banning ALL the things, same as any other day.
Have we established that it was actually an airsoft gun (gas, springer, whatever) versus a 4.5mm CO2 stylee air pistol?
I imagine the airgun community also get a bit puckered whenever one of these incidents happen, and the Grauniad and other rags start "informing" the public on the "facts".
- Thread starter
- #35
As two tone rules don't apply to air guns and they have their own legislation on purchase (ID, face to face sales etc) I think this is probably an IF and possibly a Springer at that.
Would be very curious to "follow the money" and find out how it came in to the young man's possession in the first place.
I would hope the airgun community would join ranks on this, but remembering back to VCRA the legislation going through Parliament, there are some members happy to throw Airsoft under the bus to protect their hobby.
(Like small bore pistol did to full bore pistol, and rifle shooters did to pistol shooters and bolt action rifle shooters did to semi auto shooters..)
Would be very curious to "follow the money" and find out how it came in to the young man's possession in the first place.
I would hope the airgun community would join ranks on this, but remembering back to VCRA the legislation going through Parliament, there are some members happy to throw Airsoft under the bus to protect their hobby.
(Like small bore pistol did to full bore pistol, and rifle shooters did to pistol shooters and bolt action rifle shooters did to semi auto shooters..)
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Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,190
- 6,048
Er, yes, I'm not sure what I was thinking there. Still, if the Grauniad want to tell everyone that it's an air-pistol, fine with me.
"“I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son" - so his mum knew that he had it. But, yes, whether she bought it for him or whether some rogue trader was happy to flog it to him direct is a good question.
Throw them before they throw us!
- Thread starter
- #37
I have this nightmare that the police turn up when I am out and my wife says.
"My husband only has a couple of airsoft guns"
Then they do a search...
Nick G
Members
- Mar 18, 2018
- 1,307
- 903
Or, 'are these all your husbands automatic guns madam? ' Oh no officer he has loads more in the garage '
Especially interesting to follow the money as:
1)the gun is legal to possess whether an IF or RIF
2)is illegal for him to have purchased, so ought to have come via someone else to be legal
3)it’s not VCRA colour compliant, (not bright blue, <50% coverage)
any seller who has sold without a defence (since 2007) is liable to a significant fine
4) it’s either imported (and not compliant unless the importer had a defence) or has been sold by a BBGuns retailer without a full understanding of the VCRA
The police did the right thing, the boy didn’t do anything majorly wrong (He & his mother weren’t being fully responsible, but it wasn’t waved around in public)
Under the VCRA:
Somebody thought it was a gun, so legally it is a RIF unless it meets the IF criteria. It doesn’t meet the criteria.
But no offence was committed at the time of the police visit
Shizbazki
Supporters
- Oct 4, 2014
- 785
- 144
Police did the right thing, full stop.
Going to go ona bit of a rant, and some of you will pick out the "what if's" and "what about's" but do note that each case is taken at its own merit.
Police received a call from a member of public (MOP) who stated that they saw a boy holding a pistol.
You must remember, MOPs or Joe public don't know the difference between airsoft, air gun, and a real gun, they just see gun and report it as such.
Furthermore the same MOP probably only witnessed said boy with gun for probably a few seconds and lets be real, if you thing real danger is close, you Foxtrot Oscar (ill let you figure that out)
Also they saw the gun through a window, possibly through net curtains and also, as is often the case, in daylight indoors seem dark, in the dark colours lose their saturation so a dark blue (as we saw in the photos) can look like a slightly different shade of black.
For those that don't know, in London a typical "999" as such get sent from a call handler, who dispatches it to an Operator, before the Operator dispatches the call. Now especially in one involving firearms, the local Duty Inspector is made aware of it, also keeping a look out for such calls is a Firearms Command Officer (often another Inspector). They will basically ask 101 questions and triage the call to ensure what they do is right, they will also at times personally call the MOP and ask them about what they saw, how long for and sometime even ask what their knowledge on firearms is (you would not believe the number of calls police receive as shots fired when in reality ts a backfiring car)..
As part of this "TRIAGE" they ask what the description is and of course his skin colour would come up. Of course they would do intelligence and checks on the address and anyone who lives there fast time too. Meanwhile firearms officers are making their way to the location too. The description is for officers to ensure that they locate the right address, the right person and the right item. And yes they do screw up sometimes, they are only human.
Now someone mentioned the "W" word or warrant.
I'm not going to read it out here but please look up Section 17 PACE 1984, it gives officers power of entry without warrant under certain conditions if they have reasonable suspicion, and on this occasion the suspicion was reasonable. This "Do you have a warrant?" thing is pretty much from the US but yes Warrants here do exist. I mean you should see Tipstaff Warrants, if the officer even thinks you're lying, you get nicked.
Believe it or not, those that live in the UK, the laws here can be somewhat quite draconian in many ways, i mean look up some of the Royal Parks act, sheesh its an offence to even breath loudly in them.
The 12 year old is not the same as you see in the photos, those are the pictures chosen by family to make him appear as angelic as possible, whenever you hear aspiring artist, architect, footballer or rapper killed (often sadly in some kind of gang feud) then look through that, bet if you were to see their previous it might make you think twice.
Also the area in general is pretty high on crime and gang warfare, it is not uncommon for senior gang members to give guns, drugs or weapons to younger gang kids they've recruited to carry their stuff as they think that they will be more unlikely to be stopped.
Yes officers forced entry into the home, officers are trained to deem anything and anyone as either Unknown Risk and High Risk, there isn't a Low Risk. They don't know what they are going into, a family home (in this case it was) or a gang den. Everyone was detained and led away from the address with the 12 year old boy cuffed (probably at the rear) and taken to a police vehicle, property was searched and a two tone airsoft gun was found, HE WAS DE-ARRESTED once it was established that it was an airsoft gun.
Due to the current political climate the family now thinks "ah we are entitled to some compo here", the body worn video has been viewed by a senior officer who is the lead in policing firearms and stated that he viewed the body worn footage and saw that the officer behaved properly, professionally and conducted everything as per their training, cant wrong them for doing what the book says.
Also forget David Lammy, dont even get me started on that waste of space that is Diane Abbott, i think she is the second most hated MP after Theresa May by police officers
Going to go ona bit of a rant, and some of you will pick out the "what if's" and "what about's" but do note that each case is taken at its own merit.
Police received a call from a member of public (MOP) who stated that they saw a boy holding a pistol.
You must remember, MOPs or Joe public don't know the difference between airsoft, air gun, and a real gun, they just see gun and report it as such.
Furthermore the same MOP probably only witnessed said boy with gun for probably a few seconds and lets be real, if you thing real danger is close, you Foxtrot Oscar (ill let you figure that out)
Also they saw the gun through a window, possibly through net curtains and also, as is often the case, in daylight indoors seem dark, in the dark colours lose their saturation so a dark blue (as we saw in the photos) can look like a slightly different shade of black.
For those that don't know, in London a typical "999" as such get sent from a call handler, who dispatches it to an Operator, before the Operator dispatches the call. Now especially in one involving firearms, the local Duty Inspector is made aware of it, also keeping a look out for such calls is a Firearms Command Officer (often another Inspector). They will basically ask 101 questions and triage the call to ensure what they do is right, they will also at times personally call the MOP and ask them about what they saw, how long for and sometime even ask what their knowledge on firearms is (you would not believe the number of calls police receive as shots fired when in reality ts a backfiring car)..
As part of this "TRIAGE" they ask what the description is and of course his skin colour would come up. Of course they would do intelligence and checks on the address and anyone who lives there fast time too. Meanwhile firearms officers are making their way to the location too. The description is for officers to ensure that they locate the right address, the right person and the right item. And yes they do screw up sometimes, they are only human.
Now someone mentioned the "W" word or warrant.
I'm not going to read it out here but please look up Section 17 PACE 1984, it gives officers power of entry without warrant under certain conditions if they have reasonable suspicion, and on this occasion the suspicion was reasonable. This "Do you have a warrant?" thing is pretty much from the US but yes Warrants here do exist. I mean you should see Tipstaff Warrants, if the officer even thinks you're lying, you get nicked.
Believe it or not, those that live in the UK, the laws here can be somewhat quite draconian in many ways, i mean look up some of the Royal Parks act, sheesh its an offence to even breath loudly in them.
The 12 year old is not the same as you see in the photos, those are the pictures chosen by family to make him appear as angelic as possible, whenever you hear aspiring artist, architect, footballer or rapper killed (often sadly in some kind of gang feud) then look through that, bet if you were to see their previous it might make you think twice.
Also the area in general is pretty high on crime and gang warfare, it is not uncommon for senior gang members to give guns, drugs or weapons to younger gang kids they've recruited to carry their stuff as they think that they will be more unlikely to be stopped.
Yes officers forced entry into the home, officers are trained to deem anything and anyone as either Unknown Risk and High Risk, there isn't a Low Risk. They don't know what they are going into, a family home (in this case it was) or a gang den. Everyone was detained and led away from the address with the 12 year old boy cuffed (probably at the rear) and taken to a police vehicle, property was searched and a two tone airsoft gun was found, HE WAS DE-ARRESTED once it was established that it was an airsoft gun.
Due to the current political climate the family now thinks "ah we are entitled to some compo here", the body worn video has been viewed by a senior officer who is the lead in policing firearms and stated that he viewed the body worn footage and saw that the officer behaved properly, professionally and conducted everything as per their training, cant wrong them for doing what the book says.
Also forget David Lammy, dont even get me started on that waste of space that is Diane Abbott, i think she is the second most hated MP after Theresa May by police officers
