Help gear ratio dilemma!

[Slaverius]

Hey there gang!

 

Name of the game is a carabine balance between,Triger responce/durability of internals and reliability/ long range capability. So you will se almost all parts are following a concept guide by other specialized builds but just not quite so, in the end it it all adds up to a replica that is just all purpose and is inside the legal  requirements.

 

Base is an E&L Mark18 Platinum the externals, gearbox, taper plate, sector delayer and barrel are the only things left stock E&L stoch internals are just so bad. After 4 sunday skirmishes the piston went, and soon after that the piston head and I decided to just make it my own and use the one peace cylinder set for a different project.

PARTS LIST!

 

Motor Ultimate 22k 22TPA turque boi, really wanted the 28 TPA 18K but it was out of stock so went with this one. E&L Motor was pretty decent but I wrecked it trying to change the pinion, now centre pole that holds the pinion and is inside the armature is loose and keeps spinning out and wreking bevels and pinions. Will fix it some day.

 

Lonex cylinder head with silicone gasket washer to correct AOE, haven't tested how long they last but it seems to dampen impact quite well, and doesn't compress to much. Will be adding a nylone padding to the back to piston head to get the AOE samck dab 90 °.

 

Cylinder is Retro Arms type C 290mm - 369mm barrels, to to have a little over volume even after AOE.

 

Piston is Modify Quantum not to impressed with how narrow the teeth are shiming is gonna be a chore but it seems sturdy enough, its about 18 g just 3 grams over, what I intended it to weigh but will do for now.

 

Piston head is Retro Arms, CNC Aluminum Piston Head - X. Should be 10 g according to them but is closer to 12 g. Stil it's no biggie.

Both parts are now 30g, but with the cylinder head having padding on the front and the AOE correction and the Beaffy mf that E&L GB and the m110 spring it is not be a big 

 

So I did prof of concept for the light JC results were 0.36g Bbs got me 89 mps and 1.6 jaules and 0.30g Bbs 100 mps and 1.45 jaules. But I went for 14:1 triple bearing Gears, which are geat on paper, scilent as F on a rushed shim job, the bearing delayer is a good idea as well but just needs to be a smidge larger, I tried 3 different tappet plates but I just could not get any mid- cap mags to feed without having to pad the mag well, not ideal considering it was working fine before with 18:1 stock gears and limits me to using a teammate's mags. And bearings onto of bearings just more points for potential issues.

 

I can't decide which on what to trade off. I am mentioning them but forgeting brands just when It comes to rario. Is the TR worth the reliability potential?

 

14:1 "Big Dragon" standard non bearing gears (to be honest seem decent) I tested by hitting one tooth on sector and spur gears with a screw driver and a hammer and they seem to just scratch and dent the tiniest bit.

 

Vs.

 

ASG/Lonex "Ultimate" 16:1

 

Both sets are having bushings on spur and sector and bearings only on the bevel.

 

And both ratios will be using the ASG Bavel as it meshes with the motor perfectly and with the BD set as well.

 

Considering the whole concept and the parts that have that I have combined to achieve all other requirements. What should prove more competitive and not needing maintenance every 2 games.

 

I also have just a basic mini fet by perun. But AB is something I am considering if it's worth fiddling to get the selector plate and slapping a spare G&G ETU, form a buddy of mine that now has no home, because of a GATE Titan.... Keeping the motor from overapining and preventing possible PME, keeping help with consistency of power output and just an extra reliability feature if something brakes mid cycle.

 

I know G&G electronics have a reputation failures between me and all my regular teammates we have had 15 plus replicas with different batches of and recently versions, and we had only one board that got hotter than  normal and started burning fuses but a 30 amp fuse fixet the issue functionaly but the replica goes through batteries some heat faster then others.

 

Plus have it already and the G&G ETU, is the only other triger system I'd trade stock trigger for, Treeger feed back just bearly passable but it just makes up for it with the trigger responce, with 18:1 and m100 and 25k G&G motor, just hits the right spot for me. And on my build it should have even better TR.

 

I'm not fond of the GATE Titan and most Optic triggers, and yes my friend had his fited by an experienced tech but still it's just the random oddity from time to time that I just so annoying. When it's in top environmental conditions it is just phenomenal but the light sensors are pretty finicky, the triger just feels incomplete to me I just prefer thentectile feedback of the normal triger contacts much better. Worst case I'll settle for a michroswitch but clicky!

 

Precocking is pretty cool and a big advantage but it is so much strain on almost the whole internal system. Heh and a Warfet has almost the same features as the titan for a much reasonable price and if something goes wrong you just unplug it and plug a spare.

 

So all I need to decide which set will be the better triad off when it comes to the gears.

Sorry for the long post just wanted to be thorough.

 

And got a bit carried away with my own opinions.

 

Would like your thoughts on the dilemma. Thanks in advance.

 

[Sitting Duck]

5 hours ago, Slaverius said:

Hey guys! Have any of you ever installed modify gears? I got a 15.05:1 Top set. But they seem way to short and I have to put 3 0.5mm shims  just to get an Okish mesh for the bevel to pinion shiming method. I am using an ASG ULTIMAE CNC 22000K Motor. But that throws the spur and sector way to high. I'm thinking sector won't hit the cutoff lever and It might chew up the the piston rack insert, it a modify quantum. I'm using an E&L 9mm box, also installed bushing on the spur and sector. But they sit at the same height as the bearings were. Also the bevel is now so high on the side it meets the spur gear I thing that might wreck the bearings. I'm thinking the way box is set having the the bevel bearing on a different hight. To be honest the piston seems pretty sturdy but the rack is kind of o  the narrow side it got chewed a little up by another set 14:1 by Big Dragon. I redid the shiming from scratch in 20 minutes, with and they sound pretty good for a cheapo brand and seem sturdier than the modify gears with them thin teeth.Any way if you have any ideas I'd appreciate it. Thank you advance.Hey guys! Have any of you ever installed modify gears? I got a 15.05:1 Top set. But they seem way to short and I have to put 3 0.5mm shims to get an Okish mesh for the bevel to pinion shiming method. But that throws the spur and sector way to high. I'm thinking sector won't hit the cutoff lever and It might chew up the piston, which is a modify quantum. I'm using an E&L 9mm box, also installed bushing on the spur and sector. But they sit at the same height as the bearings were. Also the bevel is now so high on the side it meets the spur gear I think hat might wreck the bearings as the post is not even haf way. I'm thinking the way box is set having the the bevel bearing on a different hight. Any way if you have any ideas I'd appreciate it. Thank you advance.Hey guys! Have any of you ever installed modify gears? I got a 15.05:1 Top set. But they seem way to short and I have to put 3 0.5mm shims  just to get an Okish mesh for the bevel to pinion shiming method. I am using an ASG ULTIMAE CNC 22000K Motor. But that throws the spur and sector way to high. I'm thinking sector won't hit the cutoff lever and It might chew up the the piston rack insert, it a modify quantum. I'm using an E&L 9mm box, also installed bushing on the spur and sector. But they sit at the same height as the bearings were. Also the bevel is now so high on the side it meets the spur gear I thing that might wreck the bearings. I'm thinking the way box is set having the the bevel bearing on a different hight. To be honest the piston seems pretty sturdy but the rack is kind of o  the narrow side it got chewed a little up by another set 14:1 by Big Dragon. I redid the shiming from scratch in 20 minutes, with and they sound pretty good for a cheapo brand and seem sturdier than the modify gears. But still I would like to use them I got them 15 % but I'm sarting to think modify parts over hyped and some what over priced ated and not woth the hassle. Any way if you have any ideas I'd appreciate it. Thank you advance.

 

"Looks" way over shimmed from the start - gears shimmed a bit high under spur & sector at first glance

and lots of slack to take up as you said - which you do tend to get more slack on bearings than bushings

On some boxes with some gear sets there is more/less slack etc....

 

If you are using all bearings then you will have more slack though that amount of shims on all gears seems way more than usual

Also shims under the bevel are not that critical as the pinion is there so bevel won't drop into spur once all fitted together

yes take up some of the slack underneath but pinion will be trying throw bevel away & upwards etc...

What I'm saying is that it is not that imperative that the bevel is shimmed underneath to EXACT tolerance/position,

when the real measurement is on top, too little and doesn't mesh with pinion correctly

too much the bevel is rammed into pinion creating noise & wear (and sounding like shit)

which you overly way compensate by frantically winding motor height up/down to try to compensate and mesh better

only know the motor height is out perhaps too much and poor or less contact is being made

I'm assuming you got the motor height nigh on bang on exactly correct to start with and those 2 x shims or so on top of bevel are correct - coz if when it is all done & dusted, fully reassembled and when you start to test the gun...

If you have to tweak the motor height more than say 1/2 a turn you measurements and best guesstimates were out

and if you find yourseld winding the motor more than a full turn up/down to your original point, well you was really out of whack setting motor height and shimming bevel to pinion etc...

If you have to wind the motor up a lot you under shimmed the bevel

if you have to wind the motor down a lot you over-shimmed the bevel

(assuming the motor height itself was correct in first place)

NB: even this "half a turn" or full turn limit or "your shimming is out" rule is only a rough guide...

Adjusting motor height with a fine threaded grub screw has say a 0.5 or 0.75 thread pitch

Where as a chunky beefy motor plate screw using say a 4mm allen key of flat head adjustment

might have a 1mm or more thread pitch over fine grub screws,

so half a turn on different motor screws alters the height differently - so not all shit is equal ffs

The General rule is that if you set it all to the best of your ability then you shouldn't have to tweak it much

Half turn or full turn etc... as explained is not set in stone like a lot of stuff...

 

 

NORMALLY on BUSHINGS I often find that say 0.20mm give or take a bit, say 0.15~0.25 is usually required on top of bevel

BUT like I said that is using bushings or a bushing on top of bevel and different builds do not always follow the same rules

(At times this was a wafer thin 0.08 shim & others was near 0.50mm - can vary lots, but mostly around 0.20 -ish on most of my recent builds, not always but fairly near this on bushing above bevel)

 

Why no cut off lever installed ???

How do you know the sector will trip the COL or sensor/switch if using fancy internal mosfet properly ???

Or how do you know the back of the sector is not rubbing on COL if set way too low (not in you case)

 

Everybody does shimming differently - either slightly differently or very differently in some cases...

 

Personally I start with the top two gears, checking sector doesn't rub on COL but fairly close for good contact to actuate

Then tip the box on side to check the sector cam and possible delayer doesn't run on lower tappet rail on top half of box

or rubs on side of box around that area

Then still with box on its side with selector side upwards, lift the sector gear and watch closely the spur's axle

if the spurs axle lifts the gears are a little too close to each other or/and way too much slack in the two gears

Looking down the box at the front, where nozzle would poke out, you should see the sector sitting halfway inline with two halves of box, or where the back of the sector-piston teeth meet the sector-spur, THAT halfway point of the sector should be rough inline with the halves of the box (aprox but depends on individual circumstances)

But sector should sitting close to COL if possible to actuate it, but not rub

Sector not too high it rubs somewhere on top half of box and stacked correctly with spur without lifting spur gear when checking sector play

The halfway spacing is not set in stone but helps as guide to ensure the sector isn't too high that is rubbing on tappet plate when cycling

 

I mean I'm assuming you check all the relevant components that operate alongside the gear set

 

The Spur/step gear is brought up as much as possible to mesh with sector but just a whisker lower that they don't rub/touch in use

You will never get 101% full teeth contact between sector/spur but 75% to 85% is what you might be aiming for

but the check to lift sector but not spur is a good testing of how good close they mesh, with a whisker of play, but not lifting of spur when checking sector play

 

A VERY VERY VERY ROUGH BALL PARK FIGURE ON BUSHINGS UNDER THESE GEARS...

Spur say 0.2mm underneath (whatever is req on top)

Sector say 0.3mm underneath (whatever is req on top)

NB: the above is very very very ROUGH starting point on most "decent" boxes/builds on BUSHINGS

(that usually go to plan in shimming - but as said only a very very rough starting point on BUSHINGS)

This NOT set in stone at all especially in your case where you need half a packet of shims as there is so much slack

 

With these two gears roughly shimmed, checked mostly by hand - holding two halves of box tightly together

(bit more play by hand, that roughly halves when screwed up, no need to keep fitting screws until final stages of spin testing, might save you risk wearing stripping threads (don't over tighten M3 bolts too much))

Ahem... with sector roughly spaced central not rubbing then carry out the spin test

Upright will sound smooth but also lay the box on either side and spin on its sides

(both sides, if one side is a bit noisy then investigate)

 

If you can't get these two gears to spin nicely - and some gears do sound rough in some boxes

but silky smooth in another box etc....

 

If you can't get those two gears to shim & spin smoothly all spaced correctly etc....

THEN REJECT THE GEARS - at least for this build (don't bin them as might be fine in other box)

There is no point wasting time if those gears won't mesh shim or sit well rolling smoothly

 

BUT BUT BUT - what about starting with bevel - you MUST start with bevel !!!

 

REALLY ???  have you checked to ensure that bevel meshes true 90° and rolls smoothly around the pinion on the motor you are using

say it is meshing at 80° or 100° - that won't provide efficient transfer of power and doubt if it will sound silky smooth either

 

They sell aftermarket 9 or 10 teeth bevels, that often will shim up differently to other bevels

so you could end up with a spur/sector gear in a set with a crap bevel gear that perhaps should be replaced

either not very wide 10 teeth to spur or not very thick teeth coz not all bevels are the same - far from it

 

Ah bollox see here...

 

 

 

and see how different gears/bevels are cut differently sometimes the " V " is higher/lower cut...

 

 

so different bevels will shim with say 0.20 & others might be 0.50 or something

(in rare cases I have had to sand a bushing on table for ages just so I could get a worn 0.10 = 0.08 shim on it)

(I actually prefer to reuse old shims in good condition as some new shims have burrs where they were punched out

Yeah Element, your shim QC is fucking dire, and SHS though better aren't ultra perfectly smooth either)

 

When you got the bevel sorted, ensured it meshes with pinion etc...

shim that to the pinion....

 

Then check how much contact of the teeth between bevel to spur...

 

If there is very little, then leaving bevel as is - that is sorted on the bevel-pinion

see if you can lift both the spur & sector up a little....

remove say a 0.2 shim from top on BOTH spur/sector and place underneath

 

retest for rubbing & smooth operation

 

only now with the bevel added there will be more gear noise and as bevel spins say 4.5 to 6.5 turns to one sector rotation, more surface noise will emit from the bevel, if unsure just retest the spur/sector roll silky smooth and overall positions look good & correct

Then plop the bevel back in

 

Heck even try to switch around and try a good strong JG or Cyma bevel - even if just 4 AR lugs - if it meshes & rolls smoothly that is main thing

Not a big deal if using a good 4 lug bevel that shims & rolls smoothly, than use a crappy 6 or 8 lug bevel that runs rough with narrow teeth that will break off on first outing in a modest snappy build

(A number of DSG's can be built using strong stock bevel & spurs)

 

Finally some gears just sound rougher in some boxes and vice versa...

some boxes where the exact gear axles are placed means that some sets in some boxes the gears meshing may be a whisker too close to each other and the teeth's " V " bottom out on the other gear it is trying to mesh with = more surface noise no matter what you try

ergo - some sets or some shit works & some shit not so well

 

Sometimes a SHS 13:1 runs silky smooth in one box but not so in another

Sometimes a ZCI or BD set runs smoother than SHS - fuck knows the real true reason at times

and in some cases you might attempt to try a different bevel or sector (compatible ratio) even

 

Heck one or two builds where I thought I'd do this and use that set, ok maybe this set, how about this gear

jeeeez still not silky smooth - sod it back to strong stock gears = much smoother....

Damn it, ok forget changing the ratio - I'll use a slightly quicker motor perhaps instead (with good meshing pinion)

 

What I'm saying is, in the end sometimes some shit will work & other times it might not, needing a bit more attention to detail

sometimes it might work with another bevel or sector, sometimes another set just runs sweeter

and in fairly rare cases - stock gears seem smoother than "some" aftermarket ones

 

You can try this & that, you can start over again, checking crap in very close detail how they shim/stack up

Accept that sometimes on bearings or some sets will need more/less shims - but check thoroughly EVERYTHING

 

If the Big Dragon set work smoothly and better then just accept it coz rarely does every build go 101% to plan/spec

Pistons bind, cylinder heads too fat with a gap on box up front, too long/tight nozzles, crappy piston head/o-ring compression, so called "speed triggers" slipping off the trigger trolley, replacement COL's fouling or not resetting properly

It is all a friggin' nightmare at times and the more you replace the bigger the headaches

 

So if BD works - just accept it you might find - might save you a lot of paracetamol and my poor fingers

(ps - bollox to most typos, it's 3:00am ffs)

[Sitting Duck]

WAY WAY TOO HIGH under spur & sector especially if worried about sector chewing up piston etc...

(and all sorts of stuff)

personally if sector way off center then COL will be iffy and rub on something on top casing I would say

 

As explained - try another bevel - even stock one if there is too much slack

 

Spur should be raised slightly say 0.2~0.3mm usually just enough to ensure it doesn't rub on shell or other bushings on bevel/sector

Sector a whisker higher to ensure it doesn't rub on COL & spur (swirl effect as sector rubs - actual wear not grease swirls)

Bevel as said set correctly, then if not great contact with spur/bevel then raise both the spur & sector slightly shifting say 0.2 shims on top to underneath instead

 

But THREE 0.5mm shims on top of bevel - that is going some, something not right, try stock bevel or something

 

Nah sector looks well jacked up, should be around 50/50 or centered, with spur just a whisker lower to roll smoothly

(but clearing case/surrounding bushings etc...)

Bevel set correctly and then check and make minor adjustments as needed to the stacking/shimming

 

Really isn't that hard to get it nigh on correct within a few attempts, but also know when something isn't right and needs to change

(in this case I'd be trying another bevel due to massive slack/play)

 

Don't know too much about Modify gears, but their DSG sector breaks like Dairylea cheese

the spur & sector look reasonably OK to me at first glance and not being stressed like DSG

So should be usable if not going ultra nutz on 40k & 11.1v etc....

 

If you set the sector pickup at say 12 o'clock, mark the bevel with a pencil (insert John Wick reference)

 

 

anyway rotate gears noting how many times the bevel rotates for the sector to complete one full revolution

then multiply the bevel rotations by 3 = actual ratio of gear set...

 

If your set is actually 15:1 the bevel will require 5 rotations

if it takes 5.5 it is a 16.5:1 actual ratio

 

18:1's are really 18.75:1 & bevel takes 6.25 rotations to complete a full sector revolution

Most 16:1's are more like 17.25:1 = 5.75 rotations, what a con eh ???

VFC's 16:1 spurs are 16.5 (5.5 rotations) I think, it was originally an odd sprung loaded spur gear

 

If you change the bevel for a 9 tooth bevel then the ratio increases by 10%

 

eg 15:1 becomes 15 x 1.1 = 16.5 and goes from 5 to 5.5 bevel rotations to complete a full cycle

This shit works on nigh all gear sets, well regular 3 gear setups no matter what it is

helps figure out/check actual gear ratios without counting lots of friggin' teeth & maths

including the weird 100:200 & 100:300 crap - why not just say 22:1 or something - jeeeeeeeeeeeeez

 

Just saying if you use say a 9 or 11 tooth, yes they exist, (heck there is a 8 & 12 tooth obscure bevel too I think)

If you use another usual 10 tooth stock bevel ratio will stay the same

if you try another 9 tooth or something & wonder about final ratio

it is however many bevel turns required to complete the cycle x 3 - job done

 

best of luck