ocho Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I've been trying to join UKARA since September last year. I also support AoBA and any other body that checks a player's eligibility, I would ideally like to be a member of all. UKARA they change their rules and regs every time I try, only some of their members adhere to these "rules", they took weeks to respond to any communication, and in my opinion seem to be "keeping" this industry to themselves and a few retailers. First they wanted me to put a telephone number on there, which I can't do as it's an online shop and I work full time. Then they said it was my supplier who had to be UKARA reg'd not me. Then Frank (why is this guy involved, he has a financial interest in selling RIF's yet he can choose who else can compete with him?) treis to get rid of me ... it goes on ... I'm that sick of them and the way they've treated me, I wanted to post their emails up on here so everyone in Airosft can see what they're doing. The emails show the latest reply first, so chronologically start at the bottom. If anyone else has had any experience like this with UKARA please share them ................................................................................ ............ Well I'm sorry it's not acceptable for some members to be asked to jump through more hoops than others. I'll take these emails to the Home Office, UKARA have been very unfair with me the whole way through this, I will take this further. I am also aware of other retailers having the same problem, so I'm not alone. ----- Original Message ----- From: UKARA Application Admin To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 4:16 PM Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application Im afraid Steve the criteria is their to be followed and is not open for negotiation. As mentioned in a prior email the criteria is amended from time to time. Best Regards, UKARA Application Administrator On 04/06/10 14:24, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote: Hi Firstly, who am I dealing with as I have no name for you. I have read your criteria and you have changed it again. I have been through this all last year with you guys, it would be nice if you guys actually read the email discussion I've had with you since september as it is all listed below. (it was originally sent to my other email: [email protected]) I have pointed out before that your current members do not adhere to there guidelines, lots of them do not list a phone number yet you keep insisting I do. Why is this, we are going over old ground again. And why do you want 2 trade references now, it was one last time. My comapny is verified by Verisign, Santander and RBS Worldpay as a genuine business which you can check online. If you look down to your email from december it says: "Evening Steve, do apologise, it isn't Franks fault, in fact its mine as I hadn't realised the current status. The only bit we need now for the criteria is a "Company Bank Account (merchant account)" slip and/or references from a trade supplier. As soon as that's through (either by scan, email or posting) I can shoot off the next email with given instructions on the next step, and how to use the system along with the membership fee details." I can send you a scan of my Merchant Account slip from Streamline as requested back in December, is that okay? All the best Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: UKARA Application Admin To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application Hi Steve, I will resend the criteria email and let you step through it. Best Regards, On 04/06/10 12:49, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote: Can someone explain the criteria to me as it changed every time I applied! Literally! Please have a look through this email, I have been pushed from pillar to post over this. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: UKARA Application Admin To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application Hi Steve, your more than welcome to resubmitt your application however you still have to conform to the criteria. Best Regards, UKARA Application Administrator On 02/06/10 13:06, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote: To whom it may concern I have been trying to join UKARA since September last year and seems I am still nowhere near getting this done. Can someone please let me know when I will be approved please as I want to sell RIF's as soon as possible. Best regards Steve 8th Regimnent Armoury ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:46 PM Subject: Fw: UKARA Application Hi guys Am still waiting for some sort of comunication here, can someone please respond to me? Does it usually take over 6 months to get this organised? Best regards Stephen Herbert 8th Regiment Armoury www.8thra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 5:27 PM Subject: Fw: UKARA Application Hi Application Admin Sorry for my delay in replying, this is my new address (replacing [email protected]). Who supplies the RIF's we are looking to sell is nothing to do with UKARA (as I have said before on this email), furthermore I would ask that you stop requesting this information given that your Chairman is a competitor of ours. As I have said before, we have been approved as a bonafide business both by RBS WorldPay/Streamline and Verisign, and we are also currently VAT registered, so we see no need to provide trade references; we are simply using your service to check the eligibility of our potential customers. We will of course provide payment for the UKARA service when we have seen the Terms & Conditions of Business, and when we are ready to start selling RIF's. That said I look forward to receiving your email outlining the next step, details of the fees and of course Terms & Conditions of Business. Best regards Stephen Herbert 8th Regiment Armoury ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Herbert To: Steve Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:58 PM Subject: Re: UKARA Application On 1 December 2009 21:34, UKARA Application Admin <[email protected]> wrote: Evening Steve, do apologise, it isn't Franks fault, in fact its mine as I hadn't realised the current status. The only bit we need now for the criteria is a "Company Bank Account (merchant account)" slip and/or references from a trade supplier. As soon as that's through (either by scan, email or posting) I can shoot off the next email with given instructions on the next step, and how to use the system along with the membership fee details. -------------- Best Regards, UKARA Application Admin http://www.ukara.org.uk Steve Herbert wrote: Hi Frank I've received no response from you so I shall assume that for whatever reason my application is unsuccessful, even though I have adhered to all your guidelines. That said I will now pass this matter to the relevant bodies as I feel you have purposefully rejected my application to try to keep this market to yourself and current members. I will of course still be selling RIF's next year and am relishing the opportunity to compete with you as my main competitor. I wonder if this might have affected my application? If your position changes please let me know. Best regards Stephen Herbert 8th Regiment Armoury www.8thra.com <http://www.8thra.com> 2009/10/29 Steve Herbert <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> Frank Please give me a definative answer as to my membership with UKARA. I have satified all your criteria. If no please explain why. Stephen 2009/10/29 UKARA Admin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> Hi Stephen We have a set of criteria which we require of our retailers and new applicants. For existing ones we are gradually getting them to adhere to our current standards for new applicants they meet the criteria or they do not join. The criteria are amended from time to time and sometime at the end of last year they were amended to reflect the new requirements that the committee felt were needed from retailers who wanted to join us. It is no ones right to join us, it is our association and we have rules just like the gun trade association and other such organisations, we are not a cartel we just have a set of standards. You meet the criteria asked for or you do not get accepted We have situations were the public complain to us about the service and general bad practices of non ukara retailers and we do not want the same complaints about retailers associated with us so we set the criteria to avoid the complaints. Regards Frank Chairman From: "Steve Herbert" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> To: "UKARA Application Admin" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:00 PM Subject: Re: UKARA Application Hi I am used to delays with UKARA, no need to appologise. I have spoken to the home office who replied: "Anyone manufacturing, importing or selling a realistic imitation firearm will have to comply with the legislative provisions to claim one of the defences." As I am the company who will be selling these items, it is myself who is responsible for checking a customer is eligible to buy an RIF at point of sale, not my supplier. The legal requirement at point of sale is with the seller, not the supplier. They are simply my warehouse and do as I instruct them. I have to say that I am unhappy at the way UKARA seem to find any excuse to stall this process, and am unsure if there is a conflict of interest as those considering my application seem also to have a commercial interest in RIF sales, and therefore would be considered a competitor. Please could you explain this. Best regards Stephen 2009/10/19 UKARA Application Admin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>: Good morning Stephen, sorry for the delay however we where discussing your specific circumstances. As you are in effect acting only an agent for the supplier, its the supplier who needs to perform the UKARA check as ultimately they are the ones dispatching the goods to your customers. The return address would also need to reflect this. Your supplier may already be UKARA retailer registered? -------------- Best Regards, UKARA Application Admin http://www.ukara.org.uk Steve Herbert wrote: Hi guys It's been a month since I re-applied for UKARA membership so I am emailing to see how my application is going. I did have a referal from your site this months but couldn't see where you'd listed me. Best regards Stephen Herbert 8th Regiment Armoury 2009/9/17 Steve Herbert <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> Many thanks, do let me know if you need anything else. All the best Steve 2009/9/17 UKARA Application Admin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> We've received your application and will look into it as soon as possible. -------------- Best Regards, UKARA Application Admin http://www.ukara.org.uk Steve Herbert wrote: I have re-applied on the website, but it already had my company email from the last time I applied, and I never got a password so I couldn't use the initial application, so I re-applied using this email address. Let me know if I need to provide anything else, or if I need to change anything. Best regards Steve www.8thra.com <http://www.8thra.com> <http://www.8thra.com> <http://www.8thra.com> 2009/9/14 Steve Herbert <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>> To whom it may concern I have listed my address and telephone number on my site here: http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_...6&Itemid=11 <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11> <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11 <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>> <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11 <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11> <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11 <http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>>> RBS Worlpay wanted this including, and have checked its size and legibility and are happy with it. Please let me know what I need to do from here to become a member. Regards Stephen Herbert 8th Regiment Armoury 2009/9/8 Steve Herbert <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>> I think you should reconsider as some of the sites already listed do not have these details on their site: http://www.militaryinsurplus.co.uk/contact-us/info_2.html http://www.actiongamers.co.uk/home/contact-us.aspx that's just two of them. Also, this site is closed! http://www.airsoft-direct.co.uk/ Also, here is a link to look at https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=...COM〈=en <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en> <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>> <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en> <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en <https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>>> I would like someone to telephone me and explain why I am being singled out like this, as you other members quite clearly do not adhere to your guidelines. Stephen Herbert 07787 078 242 2009/9/8 UKARA Application Admin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>> Good afternoon Steve, im afraid we're going to have to decline your application in respect to the criteria mentioned on the first email. Should you situation change in the future your more than welcome to re-apply. -------------- Best Regards, UKARA Application Admin http://www.ukara.org.uk Steve Herbert wrote: Hi there No problems with that apart from listing an address and phone number on the website. This is an online business run from my home in my spare time by me, the products are sent directly from the supplier so we hold no stock nor take returns to the business address, that is dealt with entirely by my supplier. If it helps I have just been issued a VeriSign certificate for the website, so the business is confirmed as bona fide as you put it. I am happy also to supply you with the limited company number of my company that owns the site, listed at companies house. I hope this is suitable, as I'm sure you understand I would not want my home address or telephone number easily accessible online. When the business grows enough for premises this will change. Any further help you can give would be much appreciated, I am not in any rush as my supplier is still looking at different RIF manufacturers, and until that is confirmed I will only be selling normal goods i.e. clothing and accessories. Best regards Stephen Herbert 07787 078 242 2009/9/2 UKARA Application Admin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>>> Dear applicant, I am contacting you from UKARA in regards to your recent retailer application request. We apologise if you have already previously been contacted - if we receive no further reply after 10 days hence from this email your application will be removed from the site (however you may always re-submit at a later date). Before we can continue processing the application, we need two letters of references from either a trade supplier, bank, VAT number, or certificate of corporation to verify you are a genuine business. Please post copies to the Ukara address (located at the bottom of the email), or scanned and attached to an email reply. We also require your shop premises address - or for online shops only, the following criteria displayed on the website: * Contact details (postal address) and phone number. * Returns policy and a conditions of sale statement. Our membership criteria includes: "All UKARA members have to satisfy the Committee that they are operating as a bona fide business, properly staffed at all times during normal working hours." UKARA Postal Address: UKARA Application Admin Hollygrove Morwenstow Bude EX23 9JL -------------- Best Regards, UKARA Application Admin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF-UK Founding Member Deva Posted June 4, 2010 AF-UK Founding Member Share Posted June 4, 2010 I suggest you point this thread to them, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocho Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 I suggest you point this thread to them, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say on the matter. will do, cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socomtactical.net Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 We also have had issues with them as a retailer we and no longer going to be part of them. We found that the " core" members or what ever they have changed there name to now are simply in it to control and market. We had nothing but problems with the account being suspended due to non payment when we still had over 4 months left as they apparently couldn't find our payment (8 months after payment) its a joke several emails and proof of payments over 2 weeks finally got back online. I think it should be run by non retailers, also another thing which annoyed me a bit was the UKARA email list being used to contact us by of the core / founding members to try sell us wholesale. I have noticed the ukara retailer list getting smaller and smaller hopefully some one else on the block will help. Laurence www.socomtactical.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Matt! Posted June 4, 2010 Supporters Share Posted June 4, 2010 wow didn't know it was that difficult to sign up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocho Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Cheers for the reply Socom, sounds like there's more than I thought! It's a pity with UKARA as it would make things easier, but I genuinely believe that UKARA is now redundant what with the advent of AoBA and UKAPU as both of these organisations can check eligibility, and also the sites themselves can help with information and checking ... we're all working to the same goal, the future of the sport. I genuinely laughed out loud when they wanted £300 a year for this "service" I'm not surprised they haven't posted on here even though I mailed them the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Matt! Posted June 10, 2010 Supporters Share Posted June 10, 2010 before this post i havent heard of AoBA, i have heard of UKAPU but wasn't sure what they did, UKARA are hugely recognized, every softer knows about them but if they dont get their act together then it seems this AoBA will take over they just need to get themselves out there ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocho Posted June 11, 2010 Author Share Posted June 11, 2010 Hi Top_dog After speaking to the Home Office, and chatting to people in the Airsoft community, it seems clear that whilst UKARA can save a retailer time to check player eligibility, that's all they're used for. It's only people who sell RIF's that might need to deal with UKARA as it stands for UK Airsoft Retailers' Association. Players should use AoBA or UKAPU. The other thing is, if players nationwide join one of these two organisations, as an RIF retailer it makes it soooo easy for me to check your eligibility to buy a gun, which means you get it quicker and everyone's happy. I imagine it also means that once you join and get a membership card, you can go into any shop and buy an RIF with that card as ID. It all makes sense to regulate players as they are the people who have to prove eligibility to purchase, the retailer doesn't need a special licence to sell RIF's. So that said maybe I can see why UKARA are trying to hang in there, but truth is they're surpluss to requirements; players nor retailers no longer need them with the advent of AoBA and UKAPU. (in my opinion lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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