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VCRA & retailers undermining it

The only part of it that I don't like is having 2nd hand sales monitored by an RFD, I'd rather have the information on a public database and simply have it updated to show who sold what to who and when, instead of having to go through a retailer. It'd save time and effort.

 
One point I picked up on is you wouldn't be able to import rif's any more, so I guess that means price fixing >.<

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

Reading through that email (assuming it's genuine) - I'm struck by one of Frank's comments.

ACPO has been trying to find someone in Trading standards to enforce the VCR Bill because they do not think it is a Police remit
This is, IMHO, the main flaw with the VCRA, UKARA, et al - no one really wants to do any of the work. You can report violations as much as you want, but I'll be damned if I've ever seen action taken.

Whatever happens though, it's not going to happen over night. VCRA from the initial brainwave to final completion and legislation took over 5 years.

 
So as the more sensible forum, I think we're mostly in agreement that:

BREAKING NEWS
EVERYTHING IS FINE
It appears to just be Yosser being a bit of a berk again.​
Everyone fine with that?

Good.

 
No, I'm far from fine with it. It is a step in the direction of tighter control, which is a slippery slope. The problem with the VCRA is not that nobody wants to enforce it, it's that it flies so far in the face of common sense that it is unenforceable. Just for one instance, how on earth can anyone keep a straight face when contemplating arresting somebody for not painting an airsoft gun 51% orange* before selling it to an adult who could perfectly legally buy the same gun, manufactured by the same company, but more powerful, without any paint, so long as s/he turns up in person to collect it?

The answer is not to say, "Well, it is silly so the only way to fix it is to apply a degree of control to these items which is deemed necessary for some far more dangerous items, even though they were originally accepted as innocuous enough to require a different approach, and even though there are far more dangerous items for sale with little or no control whatsoever," the answer is to say -

"This doesn't work, scrap it. Airsoft 'guns' are toys, not firearms, not dangerous airguns, not crossbows, not swords, nor even baseball bats of which hundreds are sold but never used for baseball; in fact they are specifically made so that they can be fired at people wearing minimal protection without producing significant injury. We already had perfectly adequate laws under the firearms act to prosecute anybody for brandishing something which is or looks like a firearm in public, we have laws against threatening behaviour, extortion, robbery, aggravated robbery, armed robbery, assault, actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm, and making threats to kill; we do not need anything else to to stop adults from committing offences with imitation firearms and if we feel that minors cannot be trusted to behave responsibly with them, we simply need to make them age restricted so that minors can only have them at the discretion of their parents, in the same way that they can have far more dangerous items."

My friends this is not the time to be meekly offering up further restrictions ourselves, in the hope of avoiding worse being imposed; it is the time to say "We told you so! Look! It's a fucking shambles! Leave us alone; we are quite capable of maintaining common sense driven self-policing within our sport/hobby and that approach will serve the wider community better than any half-baked measures which take no account of how our community functions. We are the people who are going to notice dodgy retailers and stupid individuals first and we have a vested interest in seeing them warned and/or nicked. As for the more egregious uses that imitation firearms could be put to, does anyone really imagine that buyers having to show ID in person will prevent criminals obtaining RIF's? Does licencing prevent criminals from obtaining firearms? No. So Bugger Off!"

*In fact, how is a copper to know if 51% of a complex 3D shape is a particular colour, ffs? Is s/he expected to be an expert in computer aided topography analysis or whatever? It's just pants. Bin it.

 
In many ways I agree with Ian, more legislation is not necessarily the way to go.

However, if the changes to existing legislation result in less regulation for consumers and the end of 2-tone guns then I could potentially get behind it.

If nothing else, I'm hoping for clearer rules, a definitive set of laws which clearly lay down who can buy a RIF and who can sell them one. Hopefully that'll be everyone over 18 who wants one an UKARA will be no more.

 
There is absolutely no call for RIFs to be included as restricted items requiring RFD transfer. To support this would be total folly. When you are in the airsoft community, the RIF takes on the importance of a real firearm because you are trying to hit someone with it. When you look at the RIF as an object in its own right, it is about as much a firearm as a cardboard cutout of a firearm or a banana shaped like a firearm. This is not an object that can withstand any legal test for being dangerous enough to license or control. No license = no possible legislatable and enforceable control. The proposal is an own goal for retailers, plain and simple.

I think the fact the ACPO see the VCRA (in and of itself; sales of RIFs to under 18s, publicly displaying them where you shouldn't and threatening behaviour with them is already covered in other legislation) as unenforceable and are not willing to take it further is positive. It is an accurate reflection of the imbecility of the provisions in the VCRA.

If you don't want to purchase a two tone, all you need do is show you are purchasing it for the purposes of making a film (for example), plain and simple (this is even written in specifically, and the definition of what a film constitutes is very liberal). If you want to do away with two tones, stop calling yourself an airsofter and call yourself an amateur film enthusiast.

 
I agree with some of the points you raise, Ian, and certainly some on frenchies blog.

I would, however be very surprised to see RIFs 'relegalised' so that they are unrestricted completely.

UKARA Does not now, has never, nor can ever work flawlessly. It NEEDS changing, to me at least, these proposals are a deregulation of the humble RIF. I agree that they shouldn't be lumped into Firearms, but is having them only sold by people who regularly handle firearms and who can pass on safety knowledge to the consumer really such a bad thing? I mean, how often are there accidents involving firearms? very few. How often are RIFs fucked around with? Very often. Having some of that sensibility can't harm our reputation as a sport.

Also, is it possible that, as chariman of UKARA, Frank has become bored of people flaunting the law which he has helped to input originally. Is it possible he intended for this to leak to prompt debate on the subject? It's well overdue and even if Frank doesn't follow through, I'm sure there are many more airsofters that are going to start coming out against unenforceable regulation.

 
Being a current NRA qualified RCO, I can tell you there is, in fact, negligible crossover between real firearms and airsoft handling safety, and it is not the sort of thing an RFD dealing primarily with real firearms will be able to advise on. Shoot at people wearing safety glasses with a (real) firearm? Unthinkable. Advice about ammunition? No common knowledge base whatsoever. What calibre to choose? What MOA should I expect from my TM VSR?

An RFD coming from live firearms is only going to be interested in the safety angle of licensable arms. Responsible handling of airsoft guns from the public point of view boils down to keep it in a fully enclosed bag until you are where you intend to use it, be it airsofting, filming, stage or re-enacting. Travelling with a loaded magazine and BB in the chamber of a bagged airsoft gun with a ME of less than 1 ft lb will not land you in hot water unless you gun bag is so shite that the BB escapes, and even if you would hit someone with it, it is not assault with a firearm.

 
Ok when kicking off this thread I included the proviso "if true, then players need to voice their opinions, loudly."

​several things occurred from reading the email that lead me to being unhappy with it.

  1. The chair of UKARA had been discussing with ACPO for a year before going back to UKARA members.
  2. It seeks to prevents any purchasing unless via a UK RFD. So no imports, no second hand sales unless "monitored" by RFDs
  3. It moves airsoft RIF ever closer to firearm status

It appears to be entirely geared towards protectionism of the UK retailers and completely fails to address the fundamental issue with this matter. The need for identifying airsofters. If we can achieve this is a clear and unambiguous way then we can ensure that sales of any kind, new, second hand or imports are only received by airsofters. It would be simple to state whether someone in possession of a RIF is an airsofter and apply sanctions in cases where retailers or those owning RIFs break the rules.

Under no illusion that this is a simple problem. But giving ever tighter control of airsoft to a smaller and smaller pool of UK retailers is not the answer.

 
That's not how I read the email at all, clearly Frank has been contacting APCO to try and get someone to enforce the law as trading standards and police were both recommending each other! The end result is that in the last month the police have admitted that the law is unenforceable and frank is now asking the UKARA membership (retailers, as players we are not members) for suggestions and feedback on his initial ideas.

This was clearly an INTERNAL communication between UKARA members and was not intended for public eyes, as such it hasn't been worded in a way to stop the internet airsoft police squad going off on one because their reading comprehension isn't up to scratch.

See here for a response which I believe should calm any fears.

http://www.ai-mag.com/blog/2013/11/07/jumping-the-gun/

Boycotting Fire-support will not help anyone at all, try and remember that it's someone's business and livelihood which could be destroyed by crappy rumours and selectively publishing parts of an email we were never even supposed to see. Someone's kids are fed off the back of that business, someone's mortgage is paid with the profits from it. Assuming that fire support are the 'big bad' is frankly (lol, see what I did there) nonsense. Despite what people may think the UK airsoft market really isn't worth that much money and even the bigger stores fire-support, zero-one, land warrior etc are still 'small businesses'.

 
Fire-Support just posted on Facebook, regarding the issue:

https://www.facebook.com/Firesupportffz/posts/10151968820066858

Statement about the VCR suggested changes.

The email was a private email canvassing UKARA retailers for an opinion of what we could suggest as a way forward with the VCRA if it were to be changed.

The leaked publication by the Blog run by Yosser has done potentially more damage to airsoft than anyone can imagine. Should the fact that the Police raised concerns about enforcement get into the Press then you should be more worried about the consequences of any ukara discussion about VCRA changes, which in our view would be to help airsoft not destroy it.

This is our livelihood destroying the industry is the last and furthest thing from our minds.
World domination is also of no interest to us, we just want to be able to sell RIFs on a level playing field along with all the other people that sell RIFS.

The sole aim of the ukara discussion was to try and get illegal sales stopped.
These illegal sales all though great for new players are harming airsoft and are getting worse each year.

UKARA has no power to stop anyone doing anything, it is in effect a very useful method for players who are members of an insured airsoft site to buy a RIF without any hassles or delays. You buy a gun, we check you can buy it in seconds, without the system you could wait weeks to get your new purchase as it relies on the sites being available to vouch for you and a retailer being able to see a copy of the site insurance to make sure it is valid. (another discussion I think)

The email sent was seeking a majority view from UKARA members for a way forward and was not the message that was going to be passed to the Home Office.

Once the members had a majority view of what we wanted to say at this point we would have passed on our views to the Home office to add to the collection of views that they are gathering.

At NO point did it state that RIFs should be treated as Air Weapons.
It did not suggest banning internet sales
It did not suggest banning second hand sales
It did not say sales should be face to face
It did not say posting guns should be illegal

These are all assumptions by people reading between the lines or just didn't read the email properly.

All we (Firesupport) suggested was that a simple way for RIF sales to be controlled was that only RFD Air Weapon sellers should be able to sell RIFs to anyone over 18.
NOT THAT RIFS ARE AIR WEAPONS.
A simplistic view but it was just a suggestion of something that would be easy to control.
Becoming an RFD is a reasonably simple process (Firesupport are not RFDs).

You need to realise that should any change take place that it would take a long while and also involve all interested groups in a consultation process just like the original VCR Bill.
At no point were UKARA considered as a sole input to a change, the Home Office would not allow it and the Home Office would have had the Gun Trade Association (A major lobbying force in government circles) up in arms with law suites etc.

As this is now in open view, discussions are taking place with sites groups and player reps for their views.
Should opinions be formed by these groups, the site groups and player reps should then register an interest with the home office and put their group suggestions forward.

Thanks
Frank

So, as expected, it's people reading things wrong and making assumptions. From what Frank has said above, it seems pretty reasonable.

 
I'm sorry, but this is just a bad idea. It says two things: 1) The retailers are having a tiff with each other and want the police to help them find a way to settle this (not going to happen and looks mighty immature), 2) There is a group of people out there who want tighter regulation of ALL RIFs (a non-firing wooden replica would also be swept up in this). To the police, or anyone not in the know about airsoft, an Airsoft Association rates the same as the Gun Control Network because both have an opinion on the subject of gun control. The only answer legislators could come up with that can withstand the test of universality is 'ban all RIFs'. Note that the VCRA does not distinguish between RIFs that shoot pellets and RIFs that can't. There never was an intention for a provision to distinguish an airsoft RIF for special treatment, and they WILL NOT write one in, ever. Air pistols that look like realistic copies of H&K pistols (or any other firearm) are not RIFs by virtue of the fact they meet the legal definition/test for firearms, so they will always be capable of being legislated for differently. Never mistake the similarity of airsoft RIFs and the slightly more powerful air guns. The first is not a firearm due to the essential property of lethality and can never be included in firearms legislation.

By all means, if you want to end up with no airsoft at all, go down this route.

 
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Let's not forget that the whole raison d'etre of the VCRA and controls on RIFs was due to something around 80% of violent crime being carried out using replica firearms. It's not about applying the same regulation to plastic guns as to real ones it's about making it harder for ne'er do wells to stroll into a shop, buy a £50 plastic Glock and then scaring the bejeesus out of some old lady in a sub Post Office. The Home Office could give two shits about the sport/hobby that has grown up around these toy guns. They're only interested in protecting the public from crims and helping to stop SO19 from double tapping a kid with a cap gun. If the ACPO and/or the Home Office decide the whole thing is too difficult to manage and that the best/easiest thing to do is an outright ban then that's what we'll get.

In many ways making a big public noise about the whole thing just brings it squarely into focus for the powers that be who may well decide that the tiny percentage of the population that enjoy running around the woods dressed as soldiers aren't going to make all that much difference come election time compared to the number of people in the sink estates of the country who see what LOOKS like a real gun in some kids ADIDAS tracky bottoms and shit themselves.

Added to which it very much appears that the internet has done what it does best - kneejerked about an ill-informed comment and got all of a lather about something that may not even happen.

I for one will carry on buying from Fire Support, but I will voice an opinion on tighter regulation IF it becomes a serious possibility.

 
Yeah, he said exactly what I did, except at greater length (amazingly enough) and with a familiarity with the names and dates which I could never have remembered even had I known them in the first place :lol:



If you don't want to purchase a two tone, all you need do is show you are purchasing it for the purposes of making a film (for example), plain and simple (this is even written in specifically, and the definition of what a film constitutes is very liberal). If you want to do away with two tones, stop calling yourself an airsofter and call yourself an amateur film enthusiast.
Exactly, and if you want to be able to commit an act of terrorism in the UK and are concerned that you may not be able to travel from your lair (hideout?) to your chosen venue without being arrested with your weapons, simply paint your real firearms 51% bright orange and wrap them in bin liners or something: you'll be just fine!


UKARA Does not now, has never, nor can ever work flawlessly. It NEEDS changing, to me at least, these proposals are a deregulation of the humble RIF. I agree that they shouldn't be lumped into Firearms, but is having them only sold by people who regularly handle firearms and who can pass on safety knowledge to the consumer really such a bad thing? I mean, how often are there accidents involving firearms? very few. How often are RIFs fucked around with? Very often. Having some of that sensibility can't harm our reputation as a sport.
How is having them only sold by Registered Firearms Dealers not lumping airsoft guns in with firearms, Dave? People fuck about with RIF's? So what? People fuck about with baseball bats far more often. The point which really needs to be grasped is that an airsoft gun is not a weapon, nor can it be used as an improvised weapon as successfully even as a plank, unlike many other items. It may look like a weapon, but using it in such a way that anybody outside an airsoft venue may reasonably believe that that is what it is, was already a criminal offence before the VCRA 2006 changes.

As Frenchie said, there is no problem that needs solving, so no need for any law to solve it. Having some sensibility that an airsoft gun could take your eye out is obviously a good thing, as is having the sense to realise that brandishing it in public may get you shot by the police, but it is not necessary to delegate the responsibility for instilling such sensibility into airsoft gun customers to RFD's. Any retailer who sells airsoft guns ought to be reminding people of that, if for no other reason than to cover themselves from being sued if somebody gets hurt and wants to claim that they didn't know how dangerous the things could be. The same info is also in whatever paperwork/manual comes with them from the manufacturer.

Yes, some people are complete bellends, but we cannot stand for law being framed to try to prevent every instance of absolute bellends getting hurt/hurting others at the unreasonable expense of sensible people. This is not how the regulation of other potentially dangerous things is approached. Cars for eg: every year there are thousands of incidents, despite all the regulations. If we were to apply the same degree of concern to preventing car accidents caused by bellends doing something they have been told not to, which ought to be bloody obvious to them anyway, hardly anyone would be allowed to drive. And let's remember, cars get people killed regularly - there has never yet been an incident in the UK where an airsoft gun has got anyone killed and just because that has happened elsewhere, there is no reason to believe it will happen here. British coppers are not unemployed soldiers who grew up in a society where, if you see a kid with what appears to be a gun, it probably is...

 
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Stickups with actual firearms painted to look like two tones make muggings so much more acceptable (!!!)

I, for one, would love to see the proof that 80% of the violent crime was being carried out with RIFs as a class of object. Not bananas or pencils in pockets (that's for Keith Bottomley, Firearms Guru at the Home Office, now retired), not air pistols that look like P99s (this is an actual firearm), not deactivated firearms, not illegal firearms. Actual R-I-Fs. I suspect they might have collated many of those figures from incidents of threatening behaviour with a firearm (a well established crime) and, possibly, incidents of firearms being carried in a public place when they must be carried in a fully concealing bag (Anti Social Behaviour Act 2003). As such, this figure is suspect in its applicability to RIFs.

VCRA tries badly to address sales of non-firearm RIFs and has not succeeded in doing so because the RIFs in question are below licensable thresholds. Apart from looking like a realistic firearm, a RIF has as about much standing in law as a sheet of blank paper, only the paper could cut you. This is what makes VCRA in relation to RIFs such bad law, and I am not surprised the ACPO is pretty much saying the same. VCRA is the enemy, it should be campaigned against, because it has achieved nothing other than chilling the rights of any law abiding person to purchase a RIF.

All the actual crimes you could commit with a RIF are already covered by existing legislation - threatening behaviour, sale to under 18s (ASBA, 2003), having a RIF uncovered in public view (ASBA, 2003). All the objections airsofters have about idiots getting and using RIFs irresponsibly have already been covered. Airsofters should remember that they do not have a monopoly on wanting RIFs either, and it is ridiculous to maintain that a law abiding collector of RIFs who has never once threatened or hurt anyone should rightly be prohibited from purchasing another one because of the harm caused to society by a RIF - an object which is not dangerous enough by itself to rate licensing.

(If the combination of Hazel Blears and Charles Clarke would not have been inhabiting the Home Office, I have serious doubts the VCR could even have been concocted, such were the days)

Now, how about some historical re-enactment of the Social Movement Known As Airsofting in the UK, ca 2005?

 
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Also I want to add that at no point have I misread, read between the lines, misquoted, nor misrepresented anything which has been written in this debate, by Frank or anyone else. My opinion is that I profoundly disagree with the entire concept of treating our toys/sports equipment as if they are in any way linked with firearms whatsoever.

80% sounds like a terrifyingly large statistic, Loz, but 80% of what? Not 80% of violent crime, not even 80% of violent crime involving guns (although the actual figures of such gun crime and also compared to other crime, recently, before 2006, and the trends throughout the 90's, would be important evidence in considering whether there is a problem of sufficient magnitude that we should consider it worthy of particular concern), no we are talking about 80% of those offences involving a gun in which the perpetrator was arrested (otherwise how would we know whether the gun was fake or not?).

Hmmm... seems that RIF's are not proving to be such a massive problem then, eh? Of those arrested with firearms, 80% were fake and didn't prevent the police arresting them, nor result in a shooting incident involving armed police (or we would have heard about it).

 
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