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VCRA & retailers undermining it

OK Loz, you have me: there is a legitimate concern. The question still remains however, how concerned should we be? Of the 2,069 how many were instances of serious arrestable offences, like demanding money with menaces, aggravated robbery, threats to kill, etc., how many were public order type situations, where someone was just nobbing about and quite rightly got pulled for it, and how many were cases where the perp was arrested for something else and happened to have an RIF on them?

More importantly, even if say 2000 were serious crimes, how does that compare to crimes of the same sort committed without any imitation guns, and with real firearms? Because I feel that a great number of people in the justice racket would be unemployed if 2000 were a considerable percentage of a year's serious crime in the UK...

 
Basically at the end of the day the way i see it. airsoft uses toys!! as that is what they were invented as and that is what they are. if you look through the statistics which i havent as im fairly sure im right, more crimes are committed using knives, other stabby things and blunt instruments than are committed with guns or imitation firearms. they are persecuting yhe smallest minority of the violent crimes area to be seen to be doing something. just seems like alot of argueing over something which contributes the smallest minority of crimes commited. i.thinking the whole UKARA thing has worked to reduce crimes committed and made it more difficult to purchase airsoft weapons. but if someone wants a gun or a RIF.they will find a way. and the VCRA has made that difficult for non airsofters so why make it hard for airsofters to play their hobby. if they make it difficult or more expensive. both of which seem likely than lots of businesses will go under and the sport will die.

 
You are both correct in what you say as to the letter of the law and so forth. I don't for one minute want you to think that you're not correct there. BUT - saying that as a minority we're the same as Muslims is WAAAAAYY off the mark. You would have one hell of a job trying to convince anyone in the general populace that you should have the same right to carry a realistic imitation firearm as having a basic human right to practice your own religion.

The one thing that everyone seems to be missing is that the statistics only tell part of the story. Public opinion is a fickle thing and policy is usually governed by opinion and politics NOT pure statistics. Gun ownership is an emotive issue (be it real or imitation) and one that even the boldest of Police Commissioners doesn't want to touch with a bargepole. If the general public thinks that realistic imitation firearms are a real and credible threat to their safety then they will bring the pressure of their narrow minded views to bear in an almost lemming like frenzy to be seen to be "doing the right thing". It's what keeps the tabloids in business! Added to that the more that we as a community feel it necessary to voice our objections to a change in legislation that hasn't even happened is MORE likely to make the policy makers sit up and take notice at which point the uninformed politicos that run the show could very easily target our hobby as an easy vote winner and ban them outright.

There is a time and a place for lodging objections and when we're there then I for one will do so, but that time is not now. Nobody likes someone going off half cocked (pun totally intended).

 
i dont know about anyone elses area but i have never heard of any using a rif in a crime and i have lived in several differant areas of the uk

 
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i dont know about anyone elses area but i have never heard of any using a rif in a crime and i have lv

Sorry but that's a proper head in the sand kind of attitude. The figures state that it happens, I have a mate in the TSG in South London that has seen it happen. I've never been mugged, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 
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i didnt say it never never happens but i ment its not in the papers so it.cant.be a major public concern therefore its not a huge.concern. we all.know that the tabloids love to grab a story and.blow it out of proportion so if we all havent heard of rif robbings than it can be a major concern. i have a friend in kent police and he has told.me about murders. i have a misses who has told me about child abuse and non of that reaches the.papera even tho its a weekly if not daily occurance. im just saying persepective people. retailors crying abouy an insignificant thing. get a grip

 
I think we're starting to argue about the same thing so I'm going to leave this alone for now. I'd be interested to see what the actual final result of all this is though.

 
I take your point about comparing minorities (even though it wasn't me that brought it up lol): prima facae it does seem a bit much. However when you think about it a little more deeply, there are similarities which are worth pondering. All of the Abrahamic religions contain practices which modern society considers barbaric and inhumane, even though some of them continue.

Although we in Europe do claim as a human right the ability to practice a religion without hindrance, persecution, or prejudicial treatment, we do so only within the framework of civil law. If you want to stone somebody to death for lying with a woman on a Wednesday before first washing in rain water and sacrificing a dog bollock, you can fuck off elsewhere and take your demented religion with you... It is not the right to carry a RIF which we as an airsofting minority are claiming, rather we as innocent people are claiming the human right to be left alone to mind our own business, within the framework of civil law.

I agree that we need to be careful about making the wrong type of stink, possibly at the wrong time, but then again, when will you know the right time? When the govt. issue a white paper announcing their intent to change the law and the tabloids get hold of it like a mental person with a rubber chicken and do whatever they can to wring something of interest out of it? I suggest that would be too late.

The problem we face is that nobody speaks for us as a united voice, but i'm not sure there is a united voice to speak for, nor am i convinced that just because traditionally one voice gets more done than several, we are best served by going that way. However, we need to be very clear about one thing: UKARA does not speak for airsofters, it speaks for certain retailers more than others, but it has a direct line to the likes of ACPO and the Home Office. If we're not careful we'll end up with another business led stitch up which will be fed to us as a good thing because the alternative is banning...

I say the alternative which is most credible is the Firearms Act and repealing Section 36-7 of the VCRA. If the govt really have to be seen to be doing something new, ie they cant spin the repeal as a species of excellence through learning from mistakes, they should add something to the firearms act about knowingly selling replica firearms to minors or something of the sort...

 
Ian - some good points there. I agree that it is a very fine line to tread between making a pre-emptive stink and being too late and I honestly don't know the answer. Maybe UKAPU needs to get its teeth into the matter or at least make itself and the general airsoft community aware of the ongoing process (I honestly don't know if they even have any teeth as such having only recently become aware that such an organisation even existed). I think that part of the issue seems to be the nature of the revelation from Franks email. Not just the content (which has been largely misrepresented) but the fact that it was an insider discussion between retailers that could lead to a situation less than beneficial to the consumers (ie us) - a sort of "we know something you don't" kind of thing of you will.

 
erm maybe someone can inform me but hasnt this.kcked off because the head of the UKARA has sent a letter out. it.begs the reason of why.is anyone taking views of law from a business man. hes never going to suggest things which restrict hs business. even if it.seems like he maybe... unless hes a friggin idiot then he wouldnt so there must be an angle for the ukara.

 
Ian - some good points there. I agree that it is a very fine line to tread between making a pre-emptive stink and being too late and I honestly don't know the answer. Maybe UKAPU needs to get its teeth into the matter or at least make itself and the general airsoft community aware of the ongoing process (I honestly don't know if they even have any teeth as such having only recently become aware that such an organisation even existed). I think that part of the issue seems to be the nature of the revelation from Franks email. Not just the content (which has been largely misrepresented) but the fact that it was an insider discussion between retailers that could lead to a situation less than beneficial to the consumers (ie us) - a sort of "we know something you don't" kind of thing of you will.
At the moment UKAPU have very little in the way of clout because people aren't signing up as members. The more names they have on their membership list the more hitting power they'll have as a lobbying body, there's strength in numbers.

 
BUT - saying that as a minority we're the same as Muslims is WAAAAAYY off the mark.

Public opinion is a fickle thing and policy is usually governed by opinion and politics NOT pure statistics. Gun ownership is an emotive issue (be it real or imitation) and one that even the boldest of Police Commissioners doesn't want to touch with a bargepole. If the general public thinks that realistic imitation firearms are a real and credible threat to their safety then they will bring the pressure of their narrow minded views to bear in an almost lemming like frenzy to be seen to be "doing the right thing".

Added to that the more that we as a community feel it necessary to voice our objections to a change in legislation that hasn't even happened is MORE likely to make the policy makers sit up and take notice at which point the uninformed politicos that run the show could very easily target our hobby as an easy vote winner and ban them outright.
It is 100% not the same thing, being Muslim and being an airsofter, with the exception of the numerical fact that both are minorities in population terms. However, the fact of being a numerical minority is not by itself a reason to suggest that you should behave subserviently when you are being challenged in the course of law abiding activity. I was objecting to your earlier observation that airsofters should realise they are a minority interest and should behave as such. Criminal law is there to provide sanctions against certain behaviours, not minority interests, whatever they should be.

Public opinion is emotive, but that should not lead to a 'hide and hope they don't notice us' approach. The more people that know about airsoft gaming, the safer the hobby will be from ignorance. The GCN and their ilk exist to pump their propaganda through tabloids, which is why tabloids are not trusted sources of reliable news, something which genpop should be given credit for as well. However, airsofters would be better off with politicos if they would behave and declare with all honesty that there is nothing criminal or unsavoury about airsoft itself, not giving the impression that airsoft is niche and an outcast hobby. LARP used to be considered vaguely strange and fringe, but these days, LARP is mainstream enough to hit the BBC news with positive reporting. Paintball is similar, but now also beyond question as a part of society's broad palette. Airsofting should work at heading in the same direction.

The replies are not about canvassing politicos to do something about a problem that doesn't exist. They are here because Frank issued a challenge to come up with opinions in his open letter.

ps if it would help stop the off-topic spiral introducing Muslims has managed to create, substitute cricket players in there instead, with their devilish cricket bats. I think Muslims have been very hard done by thanks to the 'War on Terror' reporting. Around this time last year, there was some vandalism involving war graves where it was hinted by the tabloids - shock, horror - that some UK based Muslim extremists were behind it all. In the end, it turned to be some feckless 17 year old white male who went on TV to apologise profusely. A lot of wild talk surrounds the topic of Islam and Muslims, thanks to the reporting of extremism and terror in the world at large, cynically linked by terrorists to faith; without the unremitting efforts of people to educate the genpop about Islam, the spiral of sensationalist rubbish would go unchallenged.

 
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I wasn't suggesting a policy of "hide and hope they don't notice us". I was saying that we need to pick our battles. If we make a bunch of fuss having gone off half cocked we're likely to be dismissed as a bunch of weirdos playing at being soldiers. If however we get the facts straight and approach the matter appropriately we have more chance.of being heard.

 
I totally get behind that one. I'm annoyed that Frank seems to have gone off half-cock, making representations to the ACPO about sales not going through UKARA's framework. Looking at the legislation text post -2006 (not something I had done before), it seems a much clearer solution has already been implemented for the benefit of players that avoids cartelisation which was always the danger with UKARA. The requirement to be insured for a defence allows for gaming, back garden plinking (yes, you can get insurance for that), collecting, re-enacting and other legal activities that don't come readily to mind. It also means the person looking to use a defence has to submit his or her full details on an insurer's proposal form to be kept on the underwriter's database so this person cannot 'buy and disappear', lessening the likelihood that the gun is bought for the purposes of crime. (That is, if they aren't already on their club list/UKARA database.) It isn't perfect, the principle is still unsound that a RIF is dangerous enough to restrict its sale or import, but not dangerous enough to restrict ownership. But it neatly cuts out the possibility of cartels or restricting RIFs only to a small group of specified purposes (when the non specified purposes are not criminal).

I hope the ACPO are going to see the representations as an attempt to build a cartel on the back of regulations, as the insurability of the activity is clearly deemed to be the test to settle the matter of defence in the 2007 Regulations. As such, it hopefully will not go anywhere, more likely produce a backwash for UKARA rather than anything for airsofters in general.

(couple of edits for grammar and spelling - a roomful of screaming kids never did great things for mental activity)

 
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The biggest problem is the uk publuf have been conditioned to hate anything that even looks like a gun ajd any ban wouod have support thanks to fire support we have to get this sorted quick before harm happens so does anyone know what is happening now and what we can do to affect the reaults i do not like the retailers having total control here

 
Guys, jeez, chill out with the UBER long posts an' have a bacon sandwich, it makes everything worth living for :D

 
^^Of all the animals I might choose to eat, if I were starving to death you understand and I'd run out of insects, pigs would be pretty far down on the list. I've heard people defending pigs with the likes of "they're really clean animals... in the wild", but they're not in the wild, they're kept in pens standing around in their own shit all day...

oh yeah, and if you're too attention span challenged, Friz, to take part in a debate which requires several ideas linked into a train of thought, per post, and/or replies to said, feel free to say nothing.

 
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yer but you do wash it first and then cook it. its not like the shit is engrained in the meat. i love haggis and thats not exactly made from the desirable parts of a sheep but it tastes boss.

well the only way we can get stuff sorted it would seem that we need a formally recognised government organisation to fight on the behalf of airsofters. if there is such a thing than theres a problem in itself that people obviously dont know about it. i think having to maybe have all players register and have it last longer than a year. would help. but i cant see anyway of making it safe other than making it the same as a shotgun license.

i dont see airsoft weapons as being more dangerous than knives and they are freely available to all over 18. i can buy a car which is more dangerous. you can get dangerous chemicals and explosive materials from downtown. but god forbid you have anything that looks like a gun. even tho gun crime is the lowest of all the violent crimes in our country. they need to get the priorities straight.

 
I think the police actually don't want to get involved in further licensing because they are complaining that the FAC and SGC scheme is already underfunded. The ACPO want to raise FAC and SGC fees from £50.00 to £200.00 as it is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22831522. If they smell a way of making money from a RIF scheme, though, they might change their minds; bear in mind the figures above, so you might have to fork out £150.00 to £250.00 for a RIF licence.

A SGC-like scheme would kill all transactions which don't go face to face between licence holders or between license holders and RFDs, and every person with a RIF would have to inform the police within 7 days by writing of every gun transfer or disposal or risk losing their license. The application and every 5 year renewal would have to be accompanied by the application fee (say, 200.00) two referees and loads of passport photos. If you move house, you would have to inform the police. This is a step even beyond what Frank has been mooting. Personally, I think it is over-restrictive and out of proportion to the the dangers posed by RIFs, as they are not firearms (thanks to having a ME under 1 ft lb). I don't remember if SGC licenses require you to sign an authority for the police to contact your GP and (by now) your partner/neighbours to find out if you have any substance abuse, mental or sociopathic issues, FAC licenses certainly do.

You are right to say that a players' body could do with countering the guff, should the HO decide that Frank's representations are going to result in action. There are players' bodies out there, my impression being that they have been generally sidelined because of the grip UKARA has had on distribution of airsoft guns (if you are going to pay a membership, are you going to pay it to a scheme that helps you get a gun or one that doesn't :) ), so I don't want to prejudge what has been going on with that.

 
Well....maybe we all need to sign up to UKAPU and start going to the meetings then.

 
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