Lunacy in Public. Man Points Bb Pistol at Police.

[Druid799]

Actually don't think I have commented here yet, gotta commend the officers for their restraint though, one would hope they had humint from the offenders family or friends that it 100% was a rif, & the guy was having some kind of "emotional episode", possibly hoping for "suicide by cop" etc.

it is ridiculous though the fallout from armed officers in the U.K. discharging their firearms, its already proven that the training regime for these guys is the most rigorous in the world, the shitstorm that comes down on them, & the time spent on administrative duties afterwards, even if it's shown to be a righteous shooting, is enough to plant the seed of doubt in the mind of some officers, which in turn puts everyone involved at risk.

thats not acceptable, but I personally can't see a solution being found ?

Had a really good chat with a firearms officer a while ago(I was sorting his shredded arm after a raid) and we were discussing shoot don’t shoot scenarios then , his take was as a British policeman his core ideal is to save life not take it and living in a society that is so against guns so they really are not the norm , no matter how much you train with them there’s still very few officers who don’t have that split second even micro split second hesitation before they pull the trigger , hence when there where all those raids on suspected terrorist sites a few yrs ago and there was thought to be a real risk of suicide bombers it was predominantly SF leading the breaching teams , No hesitation .

Which I freely admit I’m more than happy having a police force the still sees firearms as a necessary evil and NOT something encouraged to be carried every day . 

 

[GenuineGerman]

De-escalation is something I think is something our police use more in general. I see videos from across the pond and they are very quick to pull weapons but then the prevalence of guns there would probably necessitate that.  

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

De-escalation is something I think is something our police use more in general. I see videos from across the pond and they are very quick to pull weapons but then the prevalence of guns there would probably necessitate that.  

It is not the prevalence of weapons that increases use of deadly force in the usa, it is the complete lack of training that many police departments give to de-escalation training, and other issues that I wont point out here due to their political nature.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Unfortunately not being there or having access to all the information the officer had means any commentary on what should or could've happened is just armchair generals. As for policing in the UK and the USA, they're a very different job so comparisons between them is a case of apples and oranges

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

It is not the prevalence of weapons that increases use of deadly force in the usa, it is the complete lack of training that many police departments give to de-escalation training, and other issues that I wont point out here due to their political nature.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home

At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs.

“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”

Really good article, ex-CIA officer who became a rookie cop

 

[Cannonfodder]

 

[MiK]

@Cannonfodder Yea watched this a wee while ago - full respect for the guy to actually do this, more so for having it televised and his mistakes.

1. Ends up dead

2. Commits murder

3. Gets the right result but has problem to restrain perp with one hand and maybe over use of the knee.

My one take away was that the activist was so very quick to pull his gun instead of his voice.

 

[EDcase]

@Cannonfodder Yea watched this a wee while ago - full respect for the guy to actually do this, more so for having it televised and his mistakes.

1. Ends up dead

2. Commits murder

3. Gets the right result but has problem to restrain perp with one hand and maybe over use of the knee.

My one take away was that the activist was so very quick to pull his gun instead of his voice.

It was a training scenario

 

[Cannonfodder]

Yes, it was a training exercise, but it still shows the stress the officer is under in such scenarios along with the way snap decisions must be made and how the situation can change in an instant. 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

As a taxpayer I wish they had just shot the pratt, a bullet and a funeral are cheaper than keeping these idiots in jail. It's not like morons are a protected species.

More seriously though while the police did a good job descalating part of me as someone who has a brother on the job wonders should we really expect them to put themselves in harms way to do so.  A police officer should expect to go home uninjured and alive and we the public should be behind that a 100% even if that means taking a harder line on those who are ultimately in the wrong.

At the point someone threatens the life of an officer or member of the public with a weapon then as far as I am concerned their human rights go out the window. 

As for the American police I agree that better training would benefit but none of us can understand what it is like doing that job over there. The levels of violence towards the police over there in some areas is huge so you have to wonder after the crap they go through is it any wonder some lose respect for the job and the people they deal with. Not that that makes the actions of some right but maybe the actions of some more understandable. I would hope very few actually start the job without hoping to make a difference and just want to be bullies but if that is the case then they definitely need better screening.

 

[THE FNG]

Feel quite sorry for the police. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Arguments for all outcomes and "they should have done this instead" can be applied to every scenario. 

For example; say the cop shot the prick.

"Oh he should have used de-escalation tactics and non lethal force" or "excessive violence, just like the Americans, ACAB, kill the bill etc"

Say he doesnt shoot, like this scenario:

"He hesitated, he shouldn't be in the role, he cant keep the streets safe etc" or "what's the point in cops having firearms if they arent going to use them" etc.

There are SOOOO many variables that joe public dont know about and the media typically only push thier own dogmatic narrative despite having less than half the facts....and the public lap it up and join in. 

Hats off to that cop; whether he had intel or prior knowledge of the weapon or not, he still looked down the barrel of that firearm and didnt know 100% if it was a lethal or if the prick would use it. Balls of fucking steel.

 

[John_W]

As a taxpayer I wish they had just shot the pratt

In which case, the story would have been on the BBC evening news and in the National Newspapers, his family would have been calling for an enquiry and some MP looking for publicity would have been ranting on about how dangerous "BB guns" were and Airsoft would be the nail that was sticking up when the Home Office needed a scapegoat and got their hammer out.

Be careful what you wish for. 

The VCRA started with a statement "the public would like some controls on the sale of replica weapons, particularly to under 18s"...

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

In which case, the story would have been on the BBC evening news and in the National Newspapers, his family would have been calling for an enquiry and some MP looking for publicity would have been ranting on about how dangerous "BB guns" were and Airsoft would be the nail that was sticking up when the Home Office needed a scapegoat and got their hammer out.

Be careful what you wish for. 

The VCRA started with a statement "the public would like some controls on the sale of replica weapons, particularly to under 18s"...

To be honest if people are using airsoft replicas to commit crimes and threatening police officers in the street and that leads to more legislation the so be it.

Is peoples enjoyment more important than a firearms officers safety? He shouldn't have to decide whether the threat is credible and waste time and jeopardise his safety and that of others. If someone points a weapon at a police officer then bollocks to niceties he has just forfeited his life. 

I would rather play with a two tone or even a gun that bears no resemblance to a real gun than have one officer die because he hesitated on whether the gun was real.

 

[Ad_]

I would rather play with a two tone or even a gun that bears no resemblance to a real gun than have one officer die because he hesitated on whether the gun was real.

Being forced to use two-tone or "unrealistic" guns would completely kill Airsoft for me (and I expect this would be true for the majority of Airsoft players). Also: https://imgur.com/gallery/PBqcmiq

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Being forced to use two-tone or "unrealistic" guns would completely kill Airsoft for me (and I expect this would be true for the majority of Airsoft players). Also: https://imgur.com/gallery/PBqcmiq

Maybe and that would suck but there is no way I can put a Sunday afternoon hobby ahead of the safety of the police. Maybe the fact I have a brother in the force makes me look at things differently but there it is.

Maybe a registration and traceability scheme is really the way forward.

 

[JSwan]

I was watching a programme the other day about a shooting in Luton.... the guy had bought several starter pistols, which were two tone in colour and bored out the barrels, then sprayed the slides black. Shot a guy in the chest and went on a rampage. I don’t think two toning a gun is the way forward. If he hadn’t of sprayed the slide he’d still have had a lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging a round which was blue in colour ??‍

 

[EDcase]

Two tone doesn't mean anything.

Anyone who threatens others with a gun shaped object should be treated as having a real weapon and taken down if they do not obey Police to drop it.

With no repercussions on the Police officer if its later found to be a replica or toy.

 

[Ad_]

Maybe and that would suck but there is no way I can put a Sunday afternoon hobby ahead of the safety of the police. Maybe the fact I have a brother in the force makes me look at things differently but there it is.

That's the thing, such restrictions wouldn't do anything to make anyone safer. There's absolutely nothing stopping criminals from disguising their real firearms with bright colours in order to make police hesitate (and to make others dismiss such weapons as toys if spotted). Even "unrealistic" shapes don't help, as that Nerf Glock shows.

Maybe a registration and traceability scheme is really the way forward.

A lot of time, effort, and money for absolutely no benefit to anyone. A fake gun doesn't need to be especially "realistic" to be useful enough for criminal purposes, certainly nowhere as realistic as the typical Airsoft gun. It's trivial to make a fake gun that would look "realistic" enough, especially given the appearance of many improvised real firearms that have been confiscated from criminals. Here are some imgur galleries I've come across showing such weapons (there's also a mix of jokes and fakes in there but you get the point):

https://imgur.com/gallery/EbcCJPd
https://imgur.com/gallery/uTMwfEa
https://imgur.com/gallery/E1FgS2N
https://imgur.com/gallery/JTNIU7o

In the US they introduced laws requiring replicas to have orange tips for "safety", criminals then started painting their real guns with orange tips, some police then got shot due to hesitating after seeing the orange tips and now they're right back to square one. Except that law-abiding people now have a bit less freedom and have to have replicas with orange tips which do nothing to make them any safer because the police still have to treat them exactly like they would a real firearm.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Of course restrictions on ownership would help as if ownership requires registration then people can't sell them through the free ads and if they did and it was used in a crime it would traceable.

Comparing our gun control issues to to america doesn't quite work as guns over here are still relatively rare compared to the USA. 

Of course people could still modify a real one to look fake but that would be rare as they want them to look real as intimidation is 90% of what they have them for.

Nothing would stop the issues completely but if shit like this keeps happening then anything to lessen it is a step forward. The only ones to disagree are those so wrapped up in the toy soldier fantasy that the real world comes a distant second.

 

[EDcase]

Weapons used in crimes always have their serials ground out so registering only helps the owner prove it is legal.  Doesn't stop illegal ones.

The only way illegal guns are monitored is by ballistics.