ocho

UKARA are a cartel?

8 posts in this topic

I've been trying to join UKARA since September last year. I also support AoBA and any other body that checks a player's eligibility, I would ideally like to be a member of all.

 

UKARA they change their rules and regs every time I try, only some of their members adhere to these "rules", they took weeks to respond to any communication, and in my opinion seem to be "keeping" this industry to themselves and a few retailers.

First they wanted me to put a telephone number on there, which I can't do as it's an online shop and I work full time. Then they said it was my supplier who had to be UKARA reg'd not me. Then Frank (why is this guy involved, he has a financial interest in selling RIF's yet he can choose who else can compete with him?) treis to get rid of me ... it goes on ...

 

I'm that sick of them and the way they've treated me, I wanted to post their emails up on here so everyone in Airosft can see what they're doing.

 

The emails show the latest reply first, so chronologically start at the bottom.

 

If anyone else has had any experience like this with UKARA please share them

 

 

................................................................................

............

 

 

 

 

Well I'm sorry it's not acceptable for some members to be asked to jump through more hoops than others.

 

I'll take these emails to the Home Office, UKARA have been very unfair with me the whole way through this, I will take this further. I am also aware of other retailers having the same problem, so I'm not alone.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: UKARA Application Admin

To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury

Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 4:16 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application

 

 

Im afraid Steve the criteria is their to be followed and is not open for negotiation. As mentioned in a prior email the criteria is amended from time to time.

 

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Administrator

 

 

 

On 04/06/10 14:24, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote:

Hi

 

Firstly, who am I dealing with as I have no name for you.

 

I have read your criteria and you have changed it again. I have been through this all last year with you guys, it would be nice if you guys actually read the email discussion I've had with you since september as it is all listed below. (it was originally sent to my other email: hoibal@gmail.com)

 

I have pointed out before that your current members do not adhere to there guidelines, lots of them do not list a phone number yet you keep insisting I do. Why is this, we are going over old ground again. And why do you want 2 trade references now, it was one last time. My comapny is verified by Verisign, Santander and RBS Worldpay as a genuine business which you can check online.

 

If you look down to your email from december it says:

 

"Evening Steve, do apologise, it isn't Franks fault, in fact its mine as I hadn't realised the current status. The only bit we need now for the criteria is a "Company Bank Account (merchant account)" slip and/or references from a trade supplier.

As soon as that's through (either by scan, email or posting) I can shoot off the next email with given instructions on the next step, and how to use the system along with the membership fee details."

 

I can send you a scan of my Merchant Account slip from Streamline as requested back in December, is that okay?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: UKARA Application Admin

To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury

Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:55 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application

 

 

Hi Steve, I will resend the criteria email and let you step through it.

 

Best Regards,

 

On 04/06/10 12:49, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote:

Can someone explain the criteria to me as it changed every time I applied! Literally!

Please have a look through this email, I have been pushed from pillar to post over this.

 

Steve

----- Original Message -----

From: UKARA Application Admin

To: Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury

Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:48 AM

Subject: Re: Fw: UKARA Application

 

 

Hi Steve, your more than welcome to resubmitt your application however you still have to conform to the criteria.

 

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Administrator

 

On 02/06/10 13:06, Steve - 8th Regiment Armoury wrote:

To whom it may concern

 

I have been trying to join UKARA since September last year and seems I am still nowhere near getting this done. Can someone please let me know when I will be approved please as I want to sell RIF's as soon as possible.

 

Best regards

 

Steve

8th Regimnent Armoury

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: steve

To: applications@ukara.org.uk

Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:46 PM

Subject: Fw: UKARA Application

 

 

Hi guys

 

Am still waiting for some sort of comunication here, can someone please respond to me? Does it usually take over 6 months to get this organised?

 

Best regards

 

Stephen Herbert

8th Regiment Armoury

www.8thra.com

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: steve

To: applications@ukara.org.uk

Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 5:27 PM

Subject: Fw: UKARA Application

 

 

Hi Application Admin

 

Sorry for my delay in replying, this is my new address (replacing hoibal@gmail.com).

 

Who supplies the RIF's we are looking to sell is nothing to do with UKARA (as I have said before on this email), furthermore I would ask that you stop requesting this information given that your Chairman is a competitor of ours. As I have said before, we have been approved as a bonafide business both by RBS WorldPay/Streamline and Verisign, and we are also currently VAT registered, so we see no need to provide trade references; we are simply using your service to check the eligibility of our potential customers. We will of course provide payment for the UKARA service when we have seen the Terms & Conditions of Business, and when we are ready to start selling RIF's.

 

That said I look forward to receiving your email outlining the next step, details of the fees and of course Terms & Conditions of Business.

 

Best regards

 

Stephen Herbert

8th Regiment Armoury

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Herbert

To: Steve

Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:58 PM

Subject: Re: UKARA Application

 

 

 

 

 

On 1 December 2009 21:34, UKARA Application Admin <applications@ukara.org.uk> wrote:

 

Evening Steve, do apologise, it isn't Franks fault, in fact its mine as I hadn't realised the current status. The only bit we need now for the criteria is a "Company Bank Account (merchant account)" slip and/or references from a trade supplier.

 

As soon as that's through (either by scan, email or posting) I can shoot off the next email with given instructions on the next step, and how to use the system along with the membership fee details.

 

 

--------------

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Admin

 

http://www.ukara.org.uk

 

 

 

Steve Herbert wrote:

 

Hi Frank

 

I've received no response from you so I shall assume that for whatever reason my application is unsuccessful, even though I have adhered to all your guidelines.

 

That said I will now pass this matter to the relevant bodies as I feel you have purposefully rejected my application to try to keep this market to yourself and current members.

 

I will of course still be selling RIF's next year and am relishing the opportunity to compete with you as my main competitor. I wonder if this might have affected my application?

 

If your position changes please let me know.

 

Best regards

 

Stephen Herbert

8th Regiment Armoury

 

www.8thra.com <http://www.8thra.com>

 

 

 

 

2009/10/29 Steve Herbert <hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>

 

 

Frank

 

Please give me a definative answer as to my membership with UKARA.

I have satified all your criteria. If no please explain why.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

2009/10/29 UKARA Admin <applications@ukara.org.uk

 

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>

 

 

Hi Stephen

 

We have a set of criteria which we require of our retailers

and new applicants.

For existing ones we are gradually getting them to adhere to

our current standards for new applicants they meet the

criteria or they do not join.

The criteria are amended from time to time and sometime at the

end of last year they were amended to reflect the new

requirements that the committee felt were needed from

retailers who wanted to join us.

 

It is no ones right to join us, it is our association and we

have rules just like the gun trade association and other such

organisations, we are not a cartel we just have a set of

standards.

 

You meet the criteria asked for or you do not get accepted

 

We have situations were the public complain to us about the

service and general bad practices of non ukara retailers and

we do not want the same complaints about retailers associated

with us so we set the criteria to avoid the complaints.

 

Regards

Frank

Chairman

 

 

 

From: "Steve Herbert" <hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>

To: "UKARA Application Admin" <applications@ukara.org.uk

 

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>

 

Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:00 PM

Subject: Re: UKARA Application

 

 

 

Hi

 

I am used to delays with UKARA, no need to appologise.

 

I have spoken to the home office who replied:

 

"Anyone manufacturing, importing or selling a realistic imitation

firearm will have to comply with the legislative provisions to

claim

one of the defences."

 

As I am the company who will be selling these items, it is

myself who

is responsible for checking a customer is eligible to buy an

RIF at

point of sale, not my supplier. The legal requirement at point

of sale

is with the seller, not the supplier. They are simply my

warehouse and

do as I instruct them.

 

I have to say that I am unhappy at the way UKARA seem to find any

excuse to stall this process, and am unsure if there is a

conflict of

interest as those considering my application seem also to have a

commercial interest in RIF sales, and therefore would be

considered a

competitor. Please could you explain this.

 

Best regards

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

2009/10/19 UKARA Application Admin <applications@ukara.org.uk

 

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>:

 

 

Good morning Stephen, sorry for the delay however we where

discussing your

specific circumstances. As you are in effect acting only

an agent for the

supplier, its the supplier who needs to perform the UKARA

check as

ultimately they are the ones dispatching the goods to your

customers. The

return address would also need to reflect this.

 

Your supplier may already be UKARA retailer registered?

 

--------------

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Admin

 

http://www.ukara.org.uk

 

 

 

 

Steve Herbert wrote:

 

 

Hi guys

 

It's been a month since I re-applied for UKARA

membership so I am emailing

to see how my application is going. I did have a

referal from your site this

months but couldn't see where you'd listed me.

 

Best regards

 

Stephen Herbert

8th Regiment Armoury

 

 

 

2009/9/17 Steve Herbert <hoibal@gmail.com

 

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com> <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>>

 

 

Many thanks, do let me know if you need anything else.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

 

 

2009/9/17 UKARA Application Admin

<applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

 

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>>

 

 

We've received your application and will look into it

as soon

as possible.

 

 

--------------

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Admin

 

http://www.ukara.org.uk

 

 

Steve Herbert wrote:

 

I have re-applied on the website, but it already had my

company email from the last time I applied, and I never

got a password so I couldn't use the initial application,

so I re-applied using this email address.

 

Let me know if I need to provide anything else, or if I

need to change anything.

 

Best regards

 

Steve

www.8thra.com <http://www.8thra.com>

<http://www.8thra.com> <http://www.8thra.com>

 

 

 

 

2009/9/14 Steve Herbert <hoibal@gmail.com

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>

 

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>>>

 

 

 

To whom it may concern

 

I have listed my address and telephone number on my

site here:

 

http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_...6&Itemid=11

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>

 

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>>

 

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>

 

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11

<http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>'>http://www.8thra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=11>>>

 

RBS Worlpay wanted this including, and have checked its

size and

legibility and are happy with it.

 

Please let me know what I need to do from here to

become a member.

 

Regards

 

Stephen Herbert

8th Regiment Armoury

 

 

 

 

 

2009/9/8 Steve Herbert <hoibal@gmail.com

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>

 

<mailto:hoibal@gmail.com <mailto:hoibal@gmail.com>>>>

 

 

 

I think you should reconsider as some of the sites

already

listed do not have these details on their site:

 

 

http://www.militaryinsurplus.co.uk/contact-us/info_2.html

 

http://www.actiongamers.co.uk/home/contact-us.aspx

 

that's just two of them.

 

Also, this site is closed!

 

http://www.airsoft-direct.co.uk/

 

Also, here is a link to look at

 

 

https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=...COM〈=en

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>

 

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>>

 

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>

 

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en

<https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>'>https://seal.verisign.com/splash?form_file=fdf/splash.fdf&dn=WWW.8THRA.COM〈=en>>>

 

I would like someone to telephone me and explain

why I am

being singled out like this, as you other members quite

clearly do not adhere to your guidelines.

 

 

Stephen Herbert

07787 078 242

 

 

 

 

2009/9/8 UKARA Application Admin

<applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>

 

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>>>

 

Good afternoon Steve, im afraid we're going to

have to

decline your application in respect to the criteria

mentioned on the first email. Should you

situation change

in the future your more than welcome to re-apply.

 

--------------

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Admin

 

http://www.ukara.org.uk

 

 

Steve Herbert wrote:

 

Hi there

 

No problems with that apart from listing an

address

and phone number on the website. This is an

online

business run from my home in my spare time

by me, the

products are sent directly from the

supplier so we

hold no stock nor take returns to the business

address, that is dealt with entirely by my

supplier.

If it helps I have just been issued a VeriSign

certificate for the website, so the business is

confirmed as bona fide as you put it. I am

happy also

to supply you with the limited company

number of my

company that owns the site, listed at

companies house.

 

I hope this is suitable, as I'm sure you

understand I

would not want my home address or telephone

number

easily accessible online. When the business

grows

enough for premises this will change.

 

Any further help you can give would be much

appreciated, I am not in any rush as my

supplier is

still looking at different RIF

manufacturers, and

until that is confirmed I will only be

selling normal

goods i.e. clothing and accessories.

 

Best regards

 

Stephen Herbert

07787 078 242

 

 

 

2009/9/2 UKARA Application Admin

<applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk

<mailto:applications@ukara.org.uk>>>>>

 

 

Dear applicant, I am contacting you from

UKARA in

regards to your

recent retailer application request. We

apologise

if you have

already previously been contacted - if

we receive

no further reply

after 10 days hence from this email your

application will be

removed from the site (however you may

always

re-submit at a later

date).

 

Before we can continue processing the

application,

we need two

letters of references from either a

trade supplier,

bank, VAT

number, or certificate of corporation to

verify you

are a genuine

business. Please post copies to the

Ukara address

(located at the

bottom of the email), or scanned and

attached to an

email reply.

 

We also require your shop premises

address - or for

online shops

only, the following criteria displayed

on the website:

 

* Contact details (postal address) and

phone number.

* Returns policy and a conditions of

sale statement.

 

Our membership criteria includes:

"All UKARA members have to satisfy

the Committee

that they are

operating as a bona fide business,

properly staffed

at all times

during normal working hours."

 

UKARA Postal Address:

 

UKARA Application Admin

Hollygrove

Morwenstow

Bude

EX23 9JL

 

--------------

Best Regards,

UKARA Application Admin

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I suggest you point this thread to them, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say on the matter.

 

will do, cheers!

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We also have had issues with them as a retailer we and no longer going to be part of them.

 

We found that the " core" members or what ever they have changed there name to now are simply in it to control and market.

 

We had nothing but problems with the account being suspended due to non payment when we still had over 4 months left as they apparently couldn't find our payment (8 months after payment) its a joke several emails and proof of payments over 2 weeks finally got back online.

 

I think it should be run by non retailers, also another thing which annoyed me a bit was the UKARA email list being used to contact us by of the core / founding members to try sell us wholesale.

 

I have noticed the ukara retailer list getting smaller and smaller hopefully some one else on the block will help.

Laurence

www.socomtactical.net

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Cheers for the reply Socom, sounds like there's more than I thought!

 

It's a pity with UKARA as it would make things easier, but I genuinely believe that UKARA is now redundant what with the advent of AoBA and UKAPU as both of these organisations can check eligibility, and also the sites themselves can help with information and checking ... we're all working to the same goal, the future of the sport.

 

I genuinely laughed out loud when they wanted £300 a year for this "service" :lol:

 

I'm not surprised they haven't posted on here even though I mailed them the link.

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before this post i havent heard of AoBA, i have heard of UKAPU but wasn't sure what they did, UKARA are hugely recognized, every softer knows about them but if they dont get their act together then it seems this AoBA will take over they just need to get themselves out there ! :)

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Hi Top_dog

 

After speaking to the Home Office, and chatting to people in the Airsoft community, it seems clear that whilst UKARA can save a retailer time to check player eligibility, that's all they're used for. It's only people who sell RIF's that might need to deal with UKARA as it stands for UK Airsoft Retailers' Association. Players should use AoBA or UKAPU.

 

The other thing is, if players nationwide join one of these two organisations, as an RIF retailer it makes it soooo easy for me to check your eligibility to buy a gun, which means you get it quicker and everyone's happy. I imagine it also means that once you join and get a membership card, you can go into any shop and buy an RIF with that card as ID.

It all makes sense to regulate players as they are the people who have to prove eligibility to purchase, the retailer doesn't need a special licence to sell RIF's.

 

So that said maybe I can see why UKARA are trying to hang in there, but truth is they're surpluss to requirements; players nor retailers no longer need them with the advent of AoBA and UKAPU.

 

(in my opinion lol)

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