Compulsive Reload Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 Update, added new gearset, regreased gearbox and gears, added new piston head. Air comes out great. Having an issue with trigger/selector semi sometimes skips, not a full cycle. Response is crap, misfires also. Gearbox in general sounds very clunky still. Please check video. https://youtu.be/qLpxqxWe8jA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 On Thu May 17 2018 at 8:59 PM, Iceni said: You'll need a new gearset then. The standard ratio is 18:1 and V3 boxes need the standard gears.https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/gears/zci-gear-set-18-1 or these https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/gears/shs-ra-standard-gear-set I'd probably go with the standard £10 gearset to keep costs down. The anti reversal latch goes in looking like this. Hopefully you can see with the image. The flat side is onto the bevel gear, and the spring holds it to the gear all the time. Chances are when you ran it with the AR latch in the wrong position it caught the tooth on the spur gear and removed that tooth. You have to have a good look for the missing tooth to make sure it's not hiding in the gearbox ready to break something else in the future. The gears not turning well could be that old grease, or that missing tooth. You have to fully strip it to inspect. And it would be a good idea to remove as much of that grease as possible and drop some light oil into the bearings to free them up. It doesn't need to be fancy oil 3 in 1 will do (you can also use it to clean the grease off) then re grease with the ebay stuff when that arrives. You need to remove the main spring, piston and tappet plate to see the gears moving. All of those components will add resistance or stop the gears. The spring I mentioned for the selector plate/cut off lever is located on the back side of the gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I watched the video, The scratchiness is because of your motor height. There is a grub screw at the bottom of the motor, Screwing it in and out will change how the gearbox meshes and make it sound better or worse. You've changed the gears so the Motor height will need adjusting to match the new gears. The selector plate is in correctly. The misfires are the trigger dolly. It's getting caught in the fall back stage. So have a look at the spring and see if you have anything blocking the dolly. The cut off is resetting, the dolly isn't getting caught in the contacts. So it has to be with the dolly falling back and resetting. Perhaps the spring is weak, or the ways have a burr or tight spot. I'd be tempted to give it a blast of silicone spray to see if it solves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Iceni said: I watched the video, The scratchiness is because of your motor height. There is a grub screw at the bottom of the motor, Screwing it in and out will change how the gearbox meshes and make it sound better or worse. You've changed the gears so the Motor height will need adjusting to match the new gears. The selector plate is in correctly. The misfires are the trigger dolly. It's getting caught in the fall back stage. So have a look at the spring and see if you have anything blocking the dolly. The cut off is resetting, the dolly isn't getting caught in the contacts. So it has to be with the dolly falling back and resetting. Perhaps the spring is weak, or the ways have a burr or tight spot. I'd be tempted to give it a blast of silicone spray to see if it solves it. Hi, I couldn't see any screw in the bottom of the motor cage, there is a round metal plate between the motor and cage though, maybe if I remove that. Trigger dolly? Which spring is this, the one at the back? Looks a bit squashed from what I could see and maybe rusted or just dirty. Haven't got any spray, would the clear jelly stuff I bought work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, Compulsive Reload said: I couldn't see any screw in the bottom of the motor cage, there is a round metal plate between the motor and cage though, maybe if I remove that. The screw should push that plate and the motor with it. It'll be a very small grub screw. That is turned with an equally small allen key. It'll have a hex head in a small hole that looks directly up at where that plate is. I'd grab some silicone spray with a fine straw nozzle. and just give it a blast in the hole on the back side of the gearbox where you can see the trigger pushing the dolly. Most auto parts stores sell a cheap silicone if you don't want to get the more expensive stuff. Halfords for example should have it. It won't be the best quality spray, but then again your not lubing up a real gun so it's not going to make any difference. If your lucky it'll solve the issue without needing to open the gearbox again.http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductMobileDisplay?catalogId=10151&storeId=10001&productId=219033&categoryId=165705&langId=-1 If the spring is crushed you may need to find another. It might not have the required force, or orientation to pull the dolly back to a well reset position if it's kinked. Grub screws look like this. You should be able to spot the hexagon internal head part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Iceni said: The screw should push that plate and the motor with it. It'll be a very small grub screw. That is turned with an equally small allen key. It'll have a hex head in a small hole that looks directly up at where that plate is. I'd grab some silicone spray with a fine straw nozzle. and just give it a blast in the hole on the back side of the gearbox where you can see the trigger pushing the dolly. Most auto parts stores sell a cheap silicone if you don't want to get the more expensive stuff. Halfords for example should have it. It won't be the best quality spray, but then again your not lubing up a real gun so it's not going to make any difference. If your lucky it'll solve the issue without needing to open the gearbox again.http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductMobileDisplay?catalogId=10151&storeId=10001&productId=219033&categoryId=165705&langId=-1 Grub screws look like this. You should be able to spot the hexagon internal head part. Okay cheers I'll get some, I assume that abbey stuff works also. As for the screw there isn't one there, could of sworn there was one in the bottom of the stock grip though. May have dissappeared when I took it apart. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 yeah that is the reason the gearbox sounds the way it does. You need a grub screw. If you can't find it then you can order a box of them cheap enough from ebay that come with all common small sizes. I think the common size is M3x6 mm. Using a 1.5mm allen key. but I might be wrong as I've never needed to buy one! A kit like this should cover all bases.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200PCS-Allen-Head-Socket-Hex-Grub-Screw-Assortment-Cup-Point-Set-Stainless-Steel/323204657748?epid=14018917442&hash=item4b407fb254 Abbey spray would be perfect. It's one of the better quality silicone sprays, so if you have a tin just try a shot in that hole and see if it sorts it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Iceni said: yeah that is the reason the gearbox sounds the way it does. You need a grub screw. If you can't find it then you can order a box of them cheap enough from ebay that come with all common small sizes. I think the common size is M3x6 mm. Using a 1.5mm allen key. but I might be wrong as I've never needed to buy one! A kit like this should cover all bases.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200PCS-Allen-Head-Socket-Hex-Grub-Screw-Assortment-Cup-Point-Set-Stainless-Steel/323204657748?epid=14018917442&hash=item4b407fb254 Abbey spray would be perfect. It's one of the better quality silicone sprays, so if you have a tin just try a shot in that hole and see if it sorts it. Alright great I'll have a look around tomorrow for it if not I'll pick them up, will get that spray for sure though. Once again thanks for the help, really appreciate you taking the time to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 It's no problem, Gearboxes are funny bastards. Simple to look at but very easy to get wrong. Even more so when it's your first time tinkering with them. Once you've played with them a couple of times you will wonder why you ever struggled. Because you look at the parts differently, and understand how the fitting works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Iceni said: It's no problem, Gearboxes are funny bastards. Simple to look at but very easy to get wrong. Even more so when it's your first time tinkering with them. Once you've played with them a couple of times you will wonder why you ever struggled. Because you look at the parts differently, and understand how the fitting works. Well hopefully that will happen soon as its still pretty alien to me after guiding myself using youtube videos. Changing hop up etc was easier than I thought anyway so I'm sure I'll get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 On Thu Jun 14 2018 at 11:55 PM, Iceni said: It's no problem, Gearboxes are funny bastards. Simple to look at but very easy to get wrong. Even more so when it's your first time tinkering with them. Once you've played with them a couple of times you will wonder why you ever struggled. Because you look at the parts differently, and understand how the fitting works. Haven't got my grubs screws yet or silicone but trigger seems better now after taking it apart, gearbox still sounds shite. Tried firing it before as I was going to go to a nightgame but it decided to not fire apart from 5 bbs from a near full mag on auto, doesn't seem to be feeding at all really. Looks as though the air nozzle is in the way of the bbs getting in chamber? Honestly unsure. YouTube video below in case attached one doesn't work. VID_20180620_190658(0).mp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Compulsive Reload said: Tried firing it before as I was going to go to a nightgame but it decided to not fire apart from 5 bbs from a near full mag on auto, doesn't seem to be feeding at all really. Right, well you didn't change the airseal nozzle, so it can't be that, unless the gun has never worked correctly. The airseal nozzle sits in a groove on the tappet plate, so provided it's on the tappet plate correctly it can't be that. You did change the gearset. There is a chance that the sector gear has a slightly shorter radius on the nub that pulls the tappet plate back. Is that correctable> yes. So I take it you didn't throw away the old gears. If you did it's no problem. Firstly split the gearbox again. Take the sector gear, tappet plate, airseal nozzle assembly. Check the sector gear at 9 oclock on the cam is pulling the airseal nozzle and tappet plate all the way back to the cylinder head. If that isn't the case try the other sector gear. It might have a bigger cam radius. If the airseal nozzle is been pulled fully back chances are the airseal nozzle is incorrect and needs to be corrected. So while you have it split measure the airseal nozzle total length. If it was shooting before you stripped it, and now it isn't the airseal nozzle won't of changed length overnight. So if it was shooting before then the issue must be with the tappet plate/sector gear interaction, or there is another issue like the mag isn't feeding well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Iceni said: Right, well you didn't change the airseal nozzle, so it can't be that. The airseal nozzle sits in a groove on the tappet plate, so provided it's on the tappet plate correctly it can't be that. You did change the gearset. There is a chance that the sector gear has a slightly shorter radius on the nub that pulls the tappet plate back. Is that correctable> yes. So I take it you didn't throw away the old gears. If you did it's no problem. Firstly split the gearbox again. Take the sector gear, tappet plate, airseal nozzle assembly. Check the sector gear at 9 oclock on the cam is pulling the airseal nozzle and tappet plate all the way back to the cylinder head. If that isn't the case try the other sector gear. It might have a bigger cam radius. If the airseal nozzle is been pulled fully back chances are the airseal nozzle is incorrect and needs to be corrected. So while you have it split measure the airseal nozzle total length. Hi, I still have the old gears! One other thing to note is, I tried putting a screw in the motor cage to act as a grub screw that would fit in, it did and pushed the plate up, kind of went too far and the screw wouldn't go back in. Opened up the gearbox afterwards and was full of metal shavings, so cleaned that out anyway. One thing of notice is when I closed the gearbox the bushing on the sector gear wouldn't seem to go through the hole on the gearbox, sits underneath it like it doesn't have enough reach. I'll trying doing what you said at some point and get back to you. Getting on my tits this gun! Haha, thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Compulsive Reload said: One thing of notice is when I closed the gearbox the bushing on the sector gear wouldn't seem to go through the hole on the gearbox, sits underneath it like it doesn't have enough reach. Provided the bushing is sat flush on the inside of the shell it won't matter. If it's stuck out into the shell then that will need correcting. 12 minutes ago, Compulsive Reload said: One other thing to note is, I tried putting a screw in the motor cage to act as a grub screw that would fit in, it did and pushed the plate up, kind of went too far and the screw wouldn't go back in. You may have stripped the threads. The only solution for that is to drill and re-tap it at the next size up. Thread taps are pretty cheap and the materiel is soft so it's a simple project. You may even get away without drilling it.https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+Tools/d10/Engineers+Tools/sd190/Draper+Tap+%26+Die+Set/p10128 The 4mm tap in that kit will re-thread the screw hole. But you will then need a 4mm grub screw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Iceni said: Provided the bushing is sat flush on the inside of the shell it won't matter. If it's stuck out into the shell then that will need correcting. You may have stripped the threads. The only solution for that is to drill and re-tap it at the next size up. Thread taps are pretty cheap and the materiel is soft so it's a simple project. You may even get away without drilling it.https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+Tools/d10/Engineers+Tools/sd190/Draper+Tap+%26+Die+Set/p10128 The 4mm tap in that kit will re-thread the screw hole. But you will then need a 4mm grub screw! Damn, should of bloody left it haha. Oh well that sorts that then anyway and atleast I'll know what screw I need for sure if I do this. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 On Wed Jun 20 2018 at 8:52 PM, Iceni said: Provided the bushing is sat flush on the inside of the shell it won't matter. If it's stuck out into the shell then that will need correcting. You may have stripped the threads. The only solution for that is to drill and re-tap it at the next size up. Thread taps are pretty cheap and the materiel is soft so it's a simple project. You may even get away without drilling it.https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+Tools/d10/Engineers+Tools/sd190/Draper+Tap+%26+Die+Set/p10128 The 4mm tap in that kit will re-thread the screw hole. But you will then need a 4mm grub screw! Took it apart and messed about tried firing, noticed the bbs sit in the magwell? Bit don't go in when fired, the odd one jumps up and leaves the barrel. Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Was it shooting before you took it to bits? It is an important question. If it has never shot right then the airseal nozzle could be too long. If however it was shooting before and this is a result of the modifications to the gearbox then you need to address those issues. I can't help you any more than that ATM because I don't have the answer without that fundamental question been answered, Because the answer dictates the correct course of action to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 8 hours ago, Iceni said: Was it shooting before you took it to bits? It is an important question. If it has never shot right then the airseal nozzle could be too long. If however it was shooting before and this is a result of the modifications to the gearbox then you need to address those issues. I can't help you any more than that ATM because I don't have the answer without that fundamental question been answered, Because the answer dictates the correct course of action to take. Hello, It shot before this, I got it shooting when I first fixed the piston head but I then messed up a gear with the anti reversal latch in the wrong position. Can't remember if it worked once i installed new gears and piston head though maybe? Think it went off when i tried adjusting motor height as it cut out when testing gearbox and the piston was halfway in, may of been due to battery though as when I swapped it was fine. I have noticed a section of the piston has wore off by the track that goes on the gear. Bbs seem to sit too far down until I push the magazine up, used to feed fine. Does seem as though the air nozzle sticks out more than it used to, but I could be wrong. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Compulsive Reload said: It shot before this, I got it shooting when I first fixed the piston head but I then messed up a gear with the anti reversal latch in the wrong position. That was before you noticed the tooth was missing from the spur gear. And then replaced the whole gear set. It's the sector gear that is probably causing the problem then. The radius of the cam is shorter than the original. Swap the sector gears over, or grab a delayer chip that extends the radius of the sector gear slightly.https://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ultimate-gear-sector-clip-1-piece-16645 That should in theory fix it. As it will pull the tappet plate further back, without affecting how far forwards it moves. Personally I'd put the old sector gear back in. And re-shim it. It's only just off pulling back far enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Iceni said: That was before you noticed the tooth was missing from the spur gear. And then replaced the whole gear set. It's the sector gear that is probably causing the problem then. The radius of the cam is shorter than the original. Swap the sector gears over, or grab a delayer chip that extends the radius of the sector gear slightly.https://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ultimate-gear-sector-clip-1-piece-16645 That should in theory fix it. As it will pull the tappet plate further back, without affecting how far forwards it moves. Personally I'd put the old sector gear back in. And re-shim it. It's only just off pulling back far enough. Hi, I see, Okay I'll throw the old one back in. Re shim? cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 37 minutes ago, Compulsive Reload said: Re shim? lol, Go watch a few video's on gearbox shimming. It's a system of using very thin washers to space the gears correctly. It does 2 things puts the gears in the correct place so they don't rub faces, and removes the side to side motion that gears have. There are countless threads on it and it's almost an art form. When it is done right the gears spin with less friction, and it significantly reduces gearbox wear and noise. A pack of shims is cheap, but using them is actually much harder than you would imagine. If you live within spitting distance of Coventry I'd show you how to do it, In fact I'd rebuild that gearbox for you and get it running right. It might be something you could put up in the wanted section... I'm not sure if they allow for that. Wanted: Gearbox rebuild teacher: Location. You never know it might get a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsive Reload Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Iceni said: lol, Go watch a few video's on gearbox shimming. It's a system of using very thin washers to space the gears correctly. It does 2 things puts the gears in the correct place so they don't rub faces, and removes the side to side motion that gears have. There are countless threads on it and it's almost an art form. When it is done right the gears spin with less friction, and it significantly reduces gearbox wear and noise. A pack of shims is cheap, but using them is actually much harder than you would imagine. If you live within spitting distance of Coventry I'd show you how to do it, In fact I'd rebuild that gearbox for you and get it running right. It might be something you could put up in the wanted section... I'm not sure if they allow for that. Wanted: Gearbox rebuild teacher: Location. You never know it might get a response. Oh god sounds a pain. If I was close and had transport I'd probably take you up on that off lmao. Yeah its definitely an idea as Its beginning to suck the soul out of me haha, can't give up yet though as you have been so helpful! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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